Oh god. That's -EV for sure. Although if you can get poker time to count as family time that's a good win.

She obviously shouldn't try to play like you do. Should play tighter and focus on her own hand strength and reading the board first.

But if you can get her to fold every single hand from the SB she'll probably be in the top 30% of $1/2 players immediately.

Lolz.

Here's the strategy she's agreed to:

I give her $60 for $1/2.

She folds everything with the exception of TT-AA, AK which she open raises to $15. She shoves over any opening bet with these hands. If she sees a flop she shoves whatever she has left. If she can see a $2 flop with 22-99 fine, and she will bet, bet with a set or fold when she misses. I'm pretty sure if she actually sticks to this, then she'll be the best short stacker in the building. Poker will be just a novelty for her, but if she can catch a glimpse into why I love it, then maybe life will be easier down the road.

This will be an interesting theoretical experiment if nothing else. We always say that we could make a complete beginner an immediate winner with just a few quick tips, and that's pretty much what I'm about to try.

So, if anyone in MCC $1/2 tonight sees a clueless short stacking red head, try not to bleed her dry and don't **** with my optimally short stacking fiance.

I like it. A bit nitty, but it should be a winning strategy. It'll work even better the more clueless she looks. A hoodie wearing, beats rocking, 21y/o dude probably wouldn't get as much action playing that way.

Trip update:

Fiancé had a good intro experience.

I got obliterated. I played well. JJ<Q6s. QQ<AA. QQ<A8s. AA<T8o.

These were just a few if the highlights. Ill update more later. I need to take a break from the tables and regroup. My roll got knocked down to shot taking range. So ill have to be more careful now. Variance you fiend. -$2500 for the weekend.

Very curious how your fiancé's sesh went. Just for fun. Would be cool if my wife wanted to give it a go (not expecting that).

A suggestion to modify her plan. Relates to the number of players to the flop and hand value. Modify it so she's not shoving a lot into better hands. Exact numbers could be off, but something like: (1) always shove with an overpair; (2) Always shove with second pair and 3 opps or less; (3) always shove with 3rd pair against one opp only; (4) always check/fold with fourth pair.

I think that is too complicated for the first couple of times someone plays. I like Spiker's plan for the first session or two, then modify it.

Im also interested to hear how her session went. My fiance has a fleeting interest in poker but finds it boring to sit and watch me. Was thinking abt setting her up with a basic strategy as well.

I had a nice post typed up about bad river calls I made on Saturday. Then the forum ate it. So I re-typed it and the forum at it again. So ****it. I made two really bad calls, one into a boat from "show some emotion" on a paired board holding a flush after getting raised OTF and checked through OTT, I lead with a flush and called another $60 like an idiot. Called wheelchair's river raise of $50 over $25 into a pot that was originally $40ish with the 2nd nut flush on a 4-flush board. Again bad. I should have ranged them both better, even though they're spazzy and dumb a lot of the time, they're scared of me enough that they're not raising as a bluff there.


I'd be very interested in hearing about how your girl does learning how to play. Very few people start out with good coaching immediately, they usually just start playing and get hooked. Usually go on a bit of a heater to start too (just like Raheem). So they pick up bad habits and positive re-enforcement for bad plays. By the time they seek out help they're already fighting those bad habits. I'd expect her to be a winner in no time if she enjoys the game enough to stick around.

Well, first off I feel like the trip was a success. Because I am at work right now typing on a poker forum instead of checking my email...

I would disagree with the OP in that the computer tournament program is AMAZING! In the last sevaral weeks I have succesfully taken down several WSOP bracelet winners, which I believe is more than you have done dear.

I really enjoyed my first time playing real live poker with actual cards made of paper or whatever they are made of. It was weird because I couldn't figure out how to look at the cards without feeling like everyone could see them. I only played probably 20some hands because I needed a break from the stress of folding over and over. Seriously. Things moved so quickly that I could often not figure out when it was my turn to fold etc. I only spaced out and folded when I should have checked once. So I was proud.

I can't wait to try it again. Maybe now I can use "busy honing my poker skills" as an excuse to get the OP off my back, I'm so tired of being yelled at to get back in the kitchen and make him a sandwich.

Lol!! Possibly one of my favorite posts on 2p2. Pure gold, on so many levels.

Welcome to the forums Mrs Spikeraw!

And $0 to infinity is now truly an epic must read thread. I don't see how this won't go 5 stars archived must read intro to poker forums 101 instantly now.

Everyone is allowed to be jealous of me.


So as she said, the little lady folded every hand and I couldn't have been prouder. When I asked her about which hands she had, she said nothing good. She said that one hand would have flopped 2p and rivered a boat, but then followed that up by saying that most of them would have flopped nothing so she understands that even though you might hit something good, most of the time you won't.

"The Mrs" is an introvert through and through. She doesn't like crowds. She doesn't like strangers, and she doesn't like high stress confrontation. That's exactly the kind of situations poker puts you into, so you can see why she was nervous. She did great. She talked up an OMC next to her, and picked up on the fact that a player across from her was an idiot. She learned about betting lines, getting change from the dealer, etc. If she decides to play again, I think she'll be one step closer to being comfortable at the table.

My next step is teaching my soon to be 4 year old how to shuffle chips (he calls them wood chips and they're scattered all over the living room floor right now).



Now for the boring part. I don't even know what to say about the results for the weekend. They sucked. Here's a couple of examples.


Hand #1

Preflop:
Straddled pot. one limp to me in MP with JJ. I raise to $50 with about $550 behind. Btn deliberates and calls. BB OMC calls. Massive whale calls on straddle, and UTG calls. Sigh. That's fine I guess. SPR of 2. I decide that I'm pretty much getting it in with an over pair.

FLop: 245cc ($250)
BB checks. Whale goes all in for $290. He can have any made hand and any draw. UTG folds. I call. I didn't shove because I wanted to invite people behind me to either call or raise with draws. They're not calling my shove. I'm afraid of exactly 22,44,55 and that's it. Btn can't have an overpair to mine because he'd never flat it with the whale in the hand preflop. He's not terrible, but that's about as much as I know about him. I don't think he's necessarily good either. He ships it in. Others fold. I follow through on my plan and call.

Turn: 7c
River: who cares.

Whale: turns over Q6cc for a flush.
Btn: turns over 22 for a set.

Whale did what whales do. Btn set mined for $50 with 50bb ($500). I guess I can live with it if he's going to do that every time.


Hand #2: Whale raises to $25. Folds to me on Btn with AsQs. I raise to $80. Short stacked BB thinks forever and goes all in for $200. Whale goes all in for $350. I call.

BB has 33.
Whale has KJo.

Flop: K73r and I'm toast.



Hand #3:

I raise KJss in MP to $25. Button calls.

Flop: J64dd ($55)
I bet $35. Btn raises to $70. I call.

This is usually a draw in my experience. He has about $200 back. I make a plan. Check fold all diamonds and probably aces, and CRAI all blanks unless he bombs it. I've played with this guy a few times and know he bets small with things like that.

Turn: 8d ($195)
I check. He bets. I instantly fold, and he looks irritated for a second before regaining his poker mask.




Hand#4: Sunday morning. I've run QQ into AA and a couple of other crap spots. It's my last hand of the weekend as I'm about to leave to meet Mrs. Spikeraw22 for some Sesame Street Live action with our son. UTG I see AA and contemplate l/r due to the BB being a complete idiot who along with not shutting up, is just vomiting chips all over the table. I decide that I'm just as likely to get heads up with him if I raise and I avoid it limping around. I raise to $25. UTG+1 OMC who has barely played calls. and 4 others call including the reject.

Flop J96r. ($150)
BB "special" leads $65 into the field. I think for a minute and raise to $200. If someone behind me wants to come along then it's going to cost them. OMC flats. ugh. folds to "special" and he says, F it and ships for $400. I look over and OMC ALREADY HAS THE CHIPS LINED UP TO CALL. F me. As hard of a pounding as I've taken this weekend, I know that AA isn't good. I fold. Special rolls over KJo. OMC rolls over T8o, and I leave quickly because I ran into the once in his life that OMC decided to lower himself to a moron's level. The straight got there so in "doesn't matter land" I saved another $250, but it turns out I was way ahead. Now that I've calmed down, I'm pretty happy with the fold. When an old passive dude has called preflop, then cold called your raise, then lines up his chips for a call before you've even done anything, it's usually a set.

After this I decided to take a few days off from playing just to make sure my mind set is good. I'm pretty resilient when it comes to cards, but this past weekend was easily the worst short term run bad I've ever experienced. I think I played decently for most of the weekend. There were definitely a couple of spew spots, but mostly it was just run bad.

All this was mitigated by the fun I had watching the girl play for the first time. We'll see how she does going forward. If she decides she doesn't like it, that's cool. If she decides to keep playing, I'll have fun trying to teach her how to accept the money that most people are trying their hardest to give her.

Shots fired! Spike vs. Mrs. Spike heads up imo.

was this the -$2500 weekend? i think all the hands are well played. hand 1 just sucks so much... if we were deeper could find a fold when BTN shoves but getting like 5 to 1 in that spot no way

it looks like you were playing in some damn good, albeit high-variance, games this weekend. that's kind of the nature of the beast when you play games like that and 5x raises are regularly getting called in 4 spots.

put it this way, you are like a g-bucks millionaire

Tonight I ventured down to my old stomping grounds and found 4 lively tables going. There was one in particular that was playing crazy. I never made it to that table though. I made one bad call of a short stack all in with KQ and lost. After that I shaped it up and ground my way back. I won one decent pot with a flopped straight that should have been about 3x bigger but the turn scared away my customer which kind of sucked. I then got moved to one of the main games. I maneuvered myself to the left of what can only be called a fish on an epic heater. He was raising just about ATC that were suited and 4 betting as bad as 9x (99,A9,9T, he showed a 9). To my left was a massive station. It was a good table. The donkey fish had about $1500 in front of him. He couldn't miss. I was in the game for about $400 and sitting on $360 when this happened.

Hand #1

Folds to me and I bet $15 with Q6 on CO. Station calls on button. Both blinds call. This was probably not a good raise. I think it would have worked out if I'd made it bigger, but I forgot just how big of a station Btn was. He had been gone for an orbit and just sat back down. Both blinds were not crazy, so I thought I could work myself into a profitable spot since I'd been pretty tight for most of the night. Nope.

Flop: 662 ($60)
Jackpot. Check to me and I bet $45. Btn calls quicly. Blinds fold.

Turn: 662J ($150)
I bet $75. Btn calls.

Value town. He can be chasing lots of things and have ANY 6x.

River: 662J4 ($280)
I go all in. He calls $135 more.

I roll my trips. He shows 64o. Ouch.

Fine. No problem. I lost in ridiculous fashion. It happens. That's what whales do sometimes. I took a quick stroll around the room and sat back down with $285.

Hand #2
After a missed set mine and steal attempt vs. mega whale I had $265 and caught AA in MP. Finally, something to crush him with.

He raises in MP over a limper to $12. He had been doing that a lot with total junk. I 3 bet to $40 because I know he'll call just about any amount. He predictably calls.

Flop: 579 ($85)
Megawhale donks into me for $25. This is an easy value raise and I made it $65 with a plan to ship every turn. Megawhale raises to $130. Now he could definitely have something stupid that's ahead of me but he could also have TT and with a flop SPR of less than 3 it's a no brainer ship it in. He calls and shows 68ss and my night ends as I was about ready to punch something.


-$600. In devastating fashion. This last 20 hrs or so has been the worst run bad I have ever experienced and it has really got me irritated. There were some instances toward the beginning where I can definitely say I was spewing. Ironically, I usually start playing better when that happens. I tend to grab myself by the collar and shape it up. Tonight, I made one bad call, and a couple of questionable preflop raises. I can honestly say that I made no major post flop mistakes. There was maybe one bet that shouldn't have been made, but it was small. I have been crushed by variance this week.

So. the question is how do I handle it? Do I take a break, or keep going? I think when I wake up tomorrow, I'll be back to normal. Bad beats and coolers suck balls. I'm pretty good at getting over them. The good news is that I kind of have a built in poker break coming up. I'm going on vacation and shan't be touching any cards for a while. That'll help me reset the variance fuse. Tonight, I ran into two guys who were playing ATC preflop. One sucked out on me, and the other was having a once in a lifetime run. I should be happy for them both since for the rest of their lives, I'll be winning it back and then some.


This has got to end at some point though right? -$3000+ in a week is no fun.

Only take a break for as long as you feel you won't be playing your A game. If you're ready to get back out there later today or this weekend, you should do it. Seems like a lot of standard cooler stuff, although I think the last hand you could definitely get away from if you weren't already stuck.

Against a normal player I might agree with you, but against this guy no way.

Also, the math actually doesn't bear that out:

If I assign him a stupidly narrow range for him in particular, it actually becomes a call.

If I shove and he calls (he calls 100% of the time), then it's $160/$538=29.7%

His range: straights, sets, 2P, TT-JJ.


Board: 9s 7c 5d
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 30.490% 29.88% 00.62% 16267 335.00 { AhAs }
Hand 1: 69.510% 68.89% 00.62% 37513 335.00 { JJ-99, 77, 55, 97s, 86s, 75s, 97o, 86o, 75o }


So, close to break even, and in reality his range is WAY wider than that. It's morning and I'm pretty much over it. Whatevs. Poker sucks sometimes.

It just seems like such a goofy line from a whale. IMO he's more likely to ship or flat with a wider range. The little min-ish ghei raise is so strong.

Either way, glad you're feeling better, get back on the horse!

Ugh. Min-raise screams "huge made hand" from a whale. I'd actually be tempted to throw 99-JJ and maybe even 97/75 out of his range. Facing a call, or a ship / other big raise ("make it $200") I agree that his range is wider.

Still not sure if I'd fold that there though.

If you were sitting with this guy you'd not narrow his range too much. At any rate, well never know because he happened to be at the very top. The fact that he called a 3.5x 3bet OOP against a non crazy person with an SPR of like 2.8 with 68s tells you what his shelf life will be. Hopefully I see him again.

Quick phone update:

Did not play for a couple weeks. Vacation and a crazy work schedule conspired against me. Finally played some $1/2 the other night. Hit one set and rivered a straight. The rest was just sitting around and missing flops. +$100. Not a big winner and I only played marginally. It was nice not to get coolered and sucked out though. February was a pretty brutal month. I may play tonight. Well see. Red wings hockey is also calling.


The straight hand involved Angrist who got unlucky a couple times. It was a limped pot with a flop of J96hh board I believe. We both called a third party's bet. The turn paired the low card and Angrist called my bet of $45 into something like $60. The river was a K and he called a bet of $110 into $155 likely due to it looking a lot like a missed flush which is the nice thing about a straight. Especially a one gapper. I'm unsure what he had but I doubt he was calling too lightly.

It leads to today's $0-infinity lesson. Not all draws are worth chasing. I see a lot of players see flush draw or straight draw and they go into auto call mode until the river. You have to also think about your position, likelihood of getting paid, likelihood of getting there, and even more importantly, the RIO of getting there.

Ex. I had 89 in EP on a flop of TTJ in a 4 way pot (I believe I called an EP raise hoping to get there and use my great relative position). It checked to MP who bet. Now it was my turn with the PFR behind. A lot of people call this bet to hit their straight. I was getting 3:1. I folded. SB had JJ to PFRs AA. Not to be results oriented. Just saying ya gotta think about how you're doing in relation to the nuts. How good is yor flush? How good is your straight? Is it obvious? How much do they have? How willing are they to pay you off?


Don't be a fish.

Nice lesson. Totally agree. I had a similar but different draw last night (OL).

NL10
EP tight guy, seems decent (VPIP/PRF like 19/14) raises pre. I call with T9s in HJ. One other caller. I could fold, but I feel in EP, this guy's range is super tight, and he'll likely felt with much of it (something like AA-JJ and AK, TT and AQ maybe).

Flop JJ8ds, not my suit.
V cbets 3/4th pot
H raises 2/3rd pot
V shoves for not much, like 1/4th pot at this point.
H calls.

So I'm really only afraid of JJ, one combo. I raise to get him to fold AK and AQ? (and TT?). In exchange for that, I'll gii drawing a little light with AA-QQ. The only reason your 0 to infinity moment reminded me of this, was that I thought to myself, he does not have any AJ, KJ, QJ, JT for his EP raise, nor 88 or J8, so he doesn't have any significant redraws against me, so my draw is very live.

I was wondering if that hand was going to come up here

It was your button straddle. I limped preflop with AJo (no H, and maybe lighter than you'd expect OTR) to avoid being in a potentially RIO spot OOP in a bloated pot against the one player I'd prefer to avoid at that table. You checked the straddle, which was perfect from my standpoint as it caps your range. There are no big pairs, no big aces, and probably not many small pairs or suited broadway combos getting checked behind OTB.

OTF I figured I was ahead and probably should have raised for value against the other guy and to thin the field. This was my biggest mistake in the hand.

Turn pairing the low card was interesting. I think you fold a good number of 6's OTF. So I'm thinking some J's I beat, some 9's, obviously a few J9 96 type hands, and some draws/semi-bluffs. I can't see any way you've got an overpair or a set here (unless it's the one combo of 66). Most likely draws are FDs, figure some of the QK QT hands are raising preflop. It was a toss up betting out for value from worse/draws, or checking to allow bluffs/semi-bluffs to continue betting.

I knew ahead of time that I was betting out a 6 river, and probably also a J, both for value. Check folding a flush to a large bet, and likely calling a non-flush bet. Against another player I'd have a different plan. But I know you know I have a fold button, and I know that you're capable of betting out there with a busted draw or a worse made hand to get me out of the pot. I may have leveled myself into a call I shouldn't have made there. (Your sizing was pretty good there too BTW.)

Not being able to re-buy after that hand (chip sales closed) really hurt.


Great point about which draws to continue with and which to dump. I see people all the time run down to the low end and get stacked. All goes back to a lack of a plan for the hand. Drawing to a 2nd or 3rd best hand is just a bad plan.

I find I don't raise flops enough in spots like that because I'm thinking about folding out worse when really it should be for value and also to charge things like QT. I play too many pots like they're heads up. I don't think I like my turn bet as it didn't have much chance of succeeding vs both of you, but hind ight ya know. When I see two people check the turn like that I'm usually in a take it down kind of mood. I assume the other guy i giving up and you don't like me being in there. I think I was able to get a solid bet in just because of the board texture. It was a really a perfect run out for me. I felt bad for you though because of the no chip left situation. It really kills the action at the end of the night.

I aways find it interesting to play a few hands against a player with history that's also *good* at the game and thinking about a whole range of strategies and concepts. (Although it's no-where near as profitable as playing against the rest of the table.) This is pretty much a perfect example of that. OTT I *knew* you liked to fire spots like that, and you know I hate playing OOP to a good player and can fold there. Against any of the guys in between us I just come out firing the turn and charge them to chase.


In general I default to more passive lines than I probably should, and tend to fold my way out of trouble when hands go weird. When I'm playing my A game I'm dodging bullets when players make ******ed hands and punishing them when I've got them beat. B and C game I pay them off too much while also losing value when I'm ahead. I actually didn't mind any of my play that night, just some bad spots.


Last night they sold out a little after 10pm (3 full tables from open at ~6 I think). Game still managed to run until close. We had something like 12-13 players at the end and rolled two tables. Surprisingly good action too as players started punting off larger stacks than they otherwise would just to try and double up.

Awesome thread, thanks for keeping up with it. Subscribed.