Introduction
This thread will document my journey to see if Spin and Golds are profitable in 2023. I have primarily been playing micro cash games but seeing as how I play this game for fun I will be switching it up.

I will starting with 6max .25 spins using a relatively conservative bankroll management. My work schedule is pretty light at the moment so I will be able to put in some decent volume and hopefully study a few hours a week as well. I will update the thread as frequently as I deem it will be interesting, with graphs, hands and some bad beats .

The Process
Spin & Go's have, as I understand, insane variance. I have a current bankroll of $87 and will be shot taking the $1 spins at $125. Even this might be a relatively aggressive BRM considering the swings in such a low winrate gamemode. I have a rakeback deal through GG poker of 45%, which should definitely help, and will look to take advantage of leaderboard rewards when possible.

First few days

Good luck!

Yeah spins are variance heavy games and fast formats like gg has (outside of 5x+) even bigger. 100 bin swings are common and happens to basically everyone. Don't know much about 6m games but I would think they can be even worse. Fast structure more players. You can easily grind lb with those though because they give double the points compared to 3b. GLGL

Update #1
I would love to know if there is anyone that frequents 2+2 who is familiar with Spin N Go's!! I'm certainly have a few questions regarding what a profitable cEV is and stats actually matter.

Regardless of that, the last two days have been kind of whatever, volume has been a bit low and variance has taken its toll already. Total I am up about $7 with rakeback and leaderboards though. I am unsure if the winnings in prizes graph is relevant or if I should be focusing primarily on the cEV graph; they tell two very different stories. Will hopefully be able to put in signficant volume over the next few days and get in some range studying as well

Winnings in Prizes


cEV

In gg 3max games you need roughly 28cev to b/e. And you should only focus on cev because you can't do nothing about the prizes. You can have a losing cev and make money and vice versa.

Focus on cev, you should be able to beat the game between 50/80 cev/game after reasonable sample, swings are wild for sure, but 87BI should be enough. Start by getting ahold of some preflop charts, Ryan O Donnel has th ebest coaching on the subject I've seen. He has a ~30hr course on poker coaching along w dozens of hours of seminars, but mastering preflop is fairly important and those charts are TOUGH if I am being hoenst. As well as that, coaching every so often is definitely something you should consider. I cam hook you up w contacts if you're interested.

Thank you. I came to the same conclusion, but I am still unsure where weak reg, reg and crushers cEV winrates are. I come from a cash background and there aren't very many resources on Spin & Go's that have been published in the last 3 years.

That would for sure be helpful, I will definitely PM you. 80 cEV seems insanely high, but maybe its achievable in the lower stakes. Idk how possible that will be at buyin levels above $10. I have some pretty basic range charts and you are correct, the frequencies and nuance are insane when you add limping. I have been enjoying studying though!

Hopefully the image posted but these are my old stats, and these are aggregated across 6 different stakes so the lower ones are well over 50 and the higher ones, as you said, are not really attainable tob e 80cev+ at $10's and lower the avg's, although most volume being fairly split between 4 most played stakes above. However, I was a winner but not like a serious crusher maxxing out cev at each stake. As for the charts, limping isnt the only thing that adds complexity, its also that the charts drastically change at different blind levels for the same positions, so in reality, its not just the same positions you're studying but how those positions play at 25 vs 18 vs 13 vs 7 bb's etc etc. Send me a pm when you get the chance and I'll provide any help that I can. But as you see in the report (hopefully), there are also certain benchmark figures you should be trying to attain for each position which can help you study after awhile.

This is one of my EV graphs as well, couldn't post both in recent reply

This is actually very helpful! Yeah, I haven't really delved too deep into the subtleties of say 8bb vs 6bb strategy. While I think Spin & Go's are objectively easier than MTT's and cash games in terms of overall material to learn, the edge in Spins is so small that you have to be much closer to GTO than in other poker formats.

Really interesting format that I think has lots of potential for people with good discipline and volume grinders.

At the smaller stakes playing gto is not necessary when majority of your opponents are just clicking btns. Doesn't hurt to learn it obv but playing explo will get you better results. Players don't iso enough jams random hands etc.

Update #2
I have been doing quite a bit of study as of recent, and have been feeling more confident in preflop spots. The volume has been fairly mediocre, averaging about 250 tournaments/day, I'd like to get this closer to 400, but this will take some time. The results have been mixed, I am up about 65 buyins at .25 spins, but down 13 buyins at 1 spins. Total I am about breakeven pre rakeback. I will post bankroll updates every 10k tournaments, which may be a while but I want to not be results oriented in the short-term in a game format with so much variance.

I would love some insight on what a good ROI/ChipEV is for Spin & Golds. These Spins are hypers, so I wouldn't imagine the ChipEV could be much higher than 45 but I am unsure.

Graph

Congrats on the quick success at $.25's, almost certainly a decent winner in the field w that result w run good or not. I must say I know almost nothing about hyper's as I only played and studied normal spins so this may not be as relevant, I don't know. But one thing I think micro players focus too much on is volume. Doug Polk talked about this, Wakko has talked about this, my coaches used to tell me this and I have since come around and feel the same way. No matter the format, micros players tend to focus too much on volume, when in my opinion, learning theory, exploits, mental game and genuine discipline outside of simply playing a lot serves as a far higher long-run hourly roi than grinding more games does. If you go to the poker ambition site, you'll see examples of this where year 1 and 2 micro/low stakes players who obsess over volume do make more on avg, but they are also the ones who get left in the dust after that and the out-earning element is fairly marginal anyway. Typically I think micro players and high stakes players have the opposite problems, where w HS poker players, many have a study to play ratio of lile 80:20, whereas micro players who aspire to be HS players often have a 20:80 studylay ratio, if even that. I believe that each of them would do better by getting closer to the opposing's ratio, as right now, the fruit you gain from building a better and stronger foundation faster far exceeds the extra hourly in cents or dollars you get early on from extra volume, if you are even getting that, which in all likelihood you are probably not.

Maybe try doing like 60-90min sessions, reviewing hands and studying for a little, taking a break for a bit, then coming back and doing that again. See how that feels for a few weeks. Not many players can grind for 5+ hours and make as good decisions on hour 4.5 then hour 1.5, and even if you somehow can, this won't likely scale as the games will be so much tougher down the line that you almost certainly won't be able to continue to do it then. The volume grind here also almost always leads to burnout at some point, no matter how motivated and inspired you are by the game. So starting off just by getting the habits and mindset as clean as possible is a very underrated priority in these sorts of journeys, and the aggressive volume I think you can do without.

Goodluck!

You are absolutely correct. I think this is especially true in hyper spins where ROI's are extremely low even for crushers. In a format dominated by volume, even very margin changes in ROI make a significant difference to hourly.

You are talking about 6m games right? It has to be higher than that you can get close to 40 in 3m. So I would assume closer to 60 is manageable. At least in 25c games.

Apologies that I didn't make this known sooner, about 95% of the volume has been at 3max, which I have been playing exclusively. With that in mind, I think 45 is the ceiling for cEV at the low stakes. From what I've seen from mid stakes grinder you should be aiming for about 20-25 cEV.

Who showed you this? Is the figure lower because its hyper and not normal? At $5's and at least below, my old coach told me 80cev is roughly the threshold (3max normal 25bb eff starting), and even through the $15's I was earning an avg of ~35-45cev through everything as you can see above, and I certainly was not a grand slam crusher or anything.

GGPoker spins are hyper for the 2x/3x multipliers but switches to reg speed at the 5x multipliers and above. I believe up to the low stakes it is very that you could have a 45 cEV winrate total, but it would be near impossible to have that in the lower multipliers given it is a hyper. I see very few Spin & Go blogs but I would love to see if anyone had a 10k+ tournament sample on GGPoker and what their stats looked like.

Update
Life has been quite busy as of recent, and thus I haven't been able to play for the last two weeks. First day back and I must say, I couldn't have asked for a better start. Everyone talks about the downside variance of spins but the upside variance can be just as extreme. Up $47 playing $1 spins with no spin bigger than 5x is pretty insane. Obviously I ran really well, especially in the 5x spins. Will hope to put in more volume and thus update this thread more. GL to all grinders!

Bankroll: $175

Update

Will be taking my first shot at the $2 spins with the bankroll sitting at $190. I had to move from GGpoker as my PVI was sitting around 0.5 meaning I was getting very little rakeback. I will be playing on ACR for the foreseeable future, which will be an adjustment as the spins are regs and not ultras, which I have not studied nearly as much. I've played quite a bit of cash on ACR in the past and it is notoriously difficult, so here's to hoping the spins are nearly as reg-infested.

Thankfully I ran really well at both stakes, I fell into the trap of grinding too many tables which significantly hurt my cEV. A lot of work to do before I feel confident in my game, but I look forward to continuing to improve. GL All!

.25 Graph


1 Graph

Small sample but 15 cev is pretty bad even for flash format. With those cevs I would not recommend moving up in stakes. That sunrun will stop at some point unfortunately.

I agree, my results at the $1 spins were entirely the result of run good. I was trying too hard to hit leaderboard and rakeback rewards. Often I was 8 tabling ultras, which is TERRIBLE idea when my fundamentals are so weak.

I will have to put in significant work, especially preflop, if I want to avoid getting crushed at the $2's.

Day 2 @ $2 spins

So what have I learned as I've switched from ultras to regs? Poker is hard! The pool on ACR is significantly softer than I had anticipated, and I'd imagine long term I will be at least breakeven. Poker is still ****ing hard.

When I switched to spins I was constantly told how much easier/how fewer spots you need to study when compared to cash. And while the ceiling for cash may be much higher, I feel as if the floor for spins is much lower; meaning that a bad player will get absolutely destroyed in spins. I obtained some ranges and they are so detailed it is exhausting to work through them. If anyone has any tips/software to help study preflop ranges, I would greatly appreciate it.

Very tiny sample. Hoping to get to 65 cEV with more study.

Bankroll: $223

You can import your own ranges to freebetrange and use the trainer to learn them. Or use gtow fe. And I would simplify your strategy for now. Like in gto you have some iso with 12% 7% 28% freq just calculate the avg and use that.