I didn't realize you were talking to me when asking for a graph, you made no indication that it was me you were addressing

And yeah I made a play that was a bit marginal (KTs is a clear squeeze in that spot), but even great players make little mistakes like that all the time. Poker is a hard game. I make no claims to be a great player by any means, but I constantly play and work on my game. Global isn't the softest site anymore though fwiw, not since the pandemic ended. It's pretty on par with Bonition at this point, which still has plenty of fish btw

Here's my BetOnline 10nl/25nl fast fold graph over the past 9 months - hardly impressive, since my redline is a travesty, but I'm clearly beating the game despite the high rake and numerous nits:



I might be the worst (winning) reg in this thread, since I've been playing 10nl-25nl for quite some time now, but I can still beat lower stakes games. Rapid can still beat the games he's playing, as evidenced by his graphs. I'm sure we're both making plenty of punts too

It's not impossible to beat 25nl zone if you finally accept that you don't know nearly as much as you thought, and commit to constantly improving. Good life strat in general

i gotta ask, why jigglypuff?

Global is miles softer than iggy, you can't just vpn in with crypto dep/withdrawls like iggy so those euro regs stables are not there. You are commenting on a pool you don't even play. iggy games are garbage in the last 6 months especially zone. Rapids graph is reg tables I bet he gets crushed on zone if he stays there long enough.

There are "euro reg stables" at 25nl? lol. Even if there are, most of them aren't very good. It's probably just a bunch of random bad regs. Same thing with ACR. 95% of the euro regs are bad nits with obvious leaks. They make the games worse, but so long as there's some fish it doesn't matter a ton. And global is pretty bad relatively speaking at this point, it's full of nitregs now

Higher stakes games on bonition are probably pretty bad at this point, but no one at 25nl is that good. And there are undoubtedly a good amount of fish, just like with any 25nl pool anywhere. If you can't beat 25nl on any poker site, you're just not that good at poker

Do you even use solvers? If you don't even use GTOWiz then you're already at a huge disadvantage. Regs who have even done the most basic solver work are probably completely owning you all over the place, and this is why you're complaining about "how tough the games are"

Cool story. Why are you not playing on zone then if its so full of crap regs and fish?

I also don't recall saying I couldn't beat it. I said the games are awful and Rapid can't beat it.

Which pool you playing in Rapid? You said 50z doesn't run 24/7. Are you in a segregated euro pool and not on RoW stars?

Not sure when it turned out to be jigglypuff, I changed one day and it felt cool lol, on stars my avatar was the jesus man meme for pretty much 90% of my existence there lol

No, I beat 200 zone by 3bbs over 500k hands and I was beating 50 zone for 7bbs over a small sample, less than 150k hands. Reg tables are softer, also there is less of the "profitable whale" effect in there, which makes you avoid making sick folds vs button clickers who hide in the pool by overbluffing in lines that are traditionally underbluffed

25 zone might be softer than reg tables nl25 fwiw, you can do so much stuff in there, so many any2 lines that work so consistently

I'm on bodog, 50z doesn't run for 50% of the day, 25z runs in there for 75%, so I downloaded stars yesterday so I can put some volume in the mornings, but meh, maybe it's better to study instead, there are some areas in my game that I need to work on.


Btw, whitemares, I don't think the highest EV possible in the micros on bodog can be achieved by a positive redline, I've tried a 45 vpip crazy overbluff strat over 10k hands on nl25 and even though I saw lots of overfolds in a lot of spots, I was bleeding by a rake 5bb/100 higher than usual, lots of stubborn regs/fish overcalling KJo OOP vs 3-bets. Also aggression is very low in those games, so there is less rebluffing going on, whenever they put a lot of money in the pot they have a very strong range. Even though it's possible to profit from their bet-folds it's very hard to have a profitable bluff raise vs someone betting only 2p+, also people in there are afraid of going thin for value. On top of that, rake is so high that we have to overfold vs opens, open tight, overfold vs 3-bets because so many hands can't beat the threshold of the rake and be profitable calls. So yeah, don't feel bad for having a very low redline, I believe it's possible to have a positive one in the micros on bodog, but probably only with a low winrate.

So in other words I was right and you agree me with if you think you need to use solvers to beat 25nl these days? lol.

Because I live in NY, I would play most of my volume there in a heartbeat otherwise

“Then post your graph”

No way you’re beating it if it’s actually as hard as you seem to believe, since you clearly do zero solver work and presumably still play like it’s 2013. I can only assume that OP is better than you since he actually understands how to properly construct preflop ranges

No lol, you don’t, but you’ll be run over by any reg who has done solver work

If the pool is full of fish, you’ll still win even though the better regs are hammering you

But the best you can hope for even in soft games is like a 3bb/100 winrate. If you want 7bb+/100 over a large sample these days, it’s hard to do that without at least some basic solver work

imagine that, mirage been around for a decade and never looked at a solver

Since this guy (RR) is a previously permabanned poster and has nothing but snarkiness to contribute, just let me know when you've had enough of his bs here and we'll add this account to his other banned accounts.

Nits aren't going to be giving away 30+bb/100 loss rates like a fish will. You might be able to abuse a nitty reg, but they are only going to be losing in the neighborhood of 2-3bb/100 at most. Nearly all of the money comes from exploiting fish, not nits. It's laughable to suggest that a nit is losing more to a strong player than a fish.

Pat Howard did a video on this, and he has probably analyzed the Iggy pool more than anyone else:



Go to 1:40 and he gives you the numbers.

No advertising, man.

It all depends on your level, the level of the reg and the level of the fish, I was comparing a 40 vpip fish with a nit reg. In a lower rake game I see some nit regs losing way more bbs/100 3-way vs 2 very good regs than a fish would, there are also tons of soul reading going on. Nit regs are predictable, you can fold so much and only get it in with the nuts vs them, also overbluff them in a lot of spots, also when they tilt they turn into whales lol.

Sure, nobody can donate more than a 90 vpip whale, but I see fish making some plays that actually look decent, like some thin valuebets, they protection bet a lot, tons of equity denial. They make some very sick calls too, you can't just play any2 cards and beat them, specially when OOP. In order to beat the fish for the maximum winrate you have to think a lot and play quite funky yourself, also use lots of theory in some spots to not go nuts. Also some crazy fish will have very tricky sizings and some might print a lot on zone if the pool is full

I think banning mirage is a good idea, he doesn't add much to the discussion.

Ok, you got me. Your troll game is pretty GTO. Gotta give you props.

wwsf and wtsd are very very low

Appreciate the insight. You can't make out the whole number for wwsf, but I assume that anything in the 40s is too low? I didn't think the wtsd was too low, but it should be above 30?

How are these best corrected?

Interesting, yeah I guess it makes sense at 25nl where even the regs are bad, and no one is rebluffing. I had a better redline earlier in my graph, it was roughly breakeven, but once I started putting more volume into 25nl ff it began sloping downward. My redline could probably be better, I'm sure there are spots where I should be betting vs giving up. Not exactly sure what was different at 10nl ff vs 25. But I guess it's not a huge deal since I'm still winning at a decent clip

Both of these are generally from overfolding on the river. This may or may not be a good adjustment, but I can tell you on that on ignition anonymous games, you should be bluff catching the river more often, especially vs fish.

Imo stats isn't very important, you can end up having a very profitable strat with a lot of funky stats, on nl25 I've figured out that having a lower WTSD isn't a big deal, people don't bluff much and we can't valuebet super thin, so if your WTSD is low, then you might be overfolding (which is fine) or valuebetting too thin for the stakes (which is good play overall, but loses EV in practice). You should always think about how it's the meta of where you play and try to make the most at the games and don't care much about stats. Sure, a 45 WWSF in the micros might be an indicative of a lot of weak play overall, but I can see a world where the optimal strat might be with a 45 WWSF, if you're always playing vs whales and mw pots and you limp behind a lot it's ok to have a low WWSF, as an example, I've had a >50 wwsf on nl50 on stars, but on bodog reg tables mine was only 47, but I was playing a 29 vpip strat, always limping behind very loosely vs fish to get the maximum vs them.

May results

Making a comeback! Really happy with the volume and quality of play overall, sure, made some punts, even tilted because of the high volume, also adjusted poorly in some spots at 25 zone and 50 zone, I hope I can fix those mistakes later, most of them were decent plays overall, but bad practices on both stakes. Atm I'm playing around 2k hands/day, I hope I can keep this volume, if I do it, then I believe in 2 months I will be at 100z on stars (120k hands with a 5bb winrate = 60 BI of nl50 = 30 BI of nl100).

In this graph I've played for 10k hands a very crazy 45 vpip strat at 25 zone, just to test how far I could go with bluffs and crazy play overall, probably was breakeven poker, rake is too high.

Month



25 zone after playing my usual tight 25 vpip strat (confirmed unbeatable lol), obv on a sick heater, I think my winrate in there is around 7-8bb/100




H1: easy fold

PokerStars - $0.25 NL FAST (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

SB: 139.76 BB
Hero (BB): 214.64 BB
UTG: 96.6 BB
MP: 99.08 BB
CO: 99 BB
BTN: 131.4 BB

SB posts SB 0.4 BB, Hero posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.4 BB) Hero has Q A

UTG raises to 2.48 BB, fold, fold, fold, fold, Hero calls 1.48 BB

Flop: (5.36 BB, 2 players) J T K
Hero checks, UTG bets 1.68 BB, Hero raises to 6.36 BB, UTG calls 4.68 BB

Turn: (18.08 BB, 2 players) 5
Hero bets 22.2 BB, UTG calls 22.2 BB

River: (62.48 BB, 2 players) 5
Hero checks, UTG bets 65.56 BB and is all-in, fold



H2: not sure about this one

PokerStars - $0.25 NL FAST (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

SB: 67 BB
Hero (BB): 207.08 BB
UTG: 99.08 BB
MP: 82.64 BB
CO: 45.8 BB
BTN: 98.6 BB

SB posts SB 0.4 BB, Hero posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.4 BB) Hero has K A

fold, MP calls 1 BB, fold, fold, SB raises to 3 BB, Hero raises to 9 BB, MP calls 8 BB, fold

Flop: (21 BB, 2 players) Q 4 J
Hero bets 5 BB, MP calls 5 BB

Turn: (31 BB, 2 players) J
Hero checks, MP checks

River: (31 BB, 2 players) T
Hero bets 22.12 BB, MP raises to 50.24 BB, fold




H3: vamoooooo

PokerStars - $0.50 NL FAST (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

Hero (BB): 175.06 BB
UTG: 113.64 BB
MP: 343.74 BB
CO: 96.78 BB
BTN: 100 BB
SB: 82.7 BB

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, Hero posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has K K

UTG raises to 2.5 BB, MP calls 2.5 BB, fold, fold, fold, Hero raises to 12.5 BB, fold, MP calls 10 BB

Flop: (28 BB, 2 players) 8 6 4
Hero checks, MP bets 26.6 BB, Hero calls 26.6 BB

Turn: (81.2 BB, 2 players) A
Hero checks, MP bets 77.14 BB, Hero calls 77.14 BB

River: (235.48 BB, 2 players) Q
Hero checks, MP bets 227.5 BB and is all-in, Hero calls 58.82 BB and is all-in



H4: sick call

PokerStars - $0.25 NL FAST (6 max) - Holdem - 3 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

Hero (SB): 125.12 BB
BB: 50 BB
BTN: 67.04 BB

Hero posts SB 0.4 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.4 BB) Hero has 9 A

BTN calls 1 BB, Hero raises to 5 BB, fold, BTN calls 4 BB

Flop: (11 BB, 2 players) 2 J 3
Hero bets 3 BB, BTN calls 3 BB

Turn: (17 BB, 2 players) 6
Hero bets 12.12 BB, BTN calls 12.12 BB

River: (41.24 BB, 2 players) 8
Hero checks, BTN bets 46.92 BB and is all-in, Hero calls 46.92 BB



H5: this is the type of hand in which I get owned in these stakes, should avoid going too thin vs these guys

PokerStars - $0.25 NL FAST (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

CO: 100 BB
BTN: 22.4 BB
SB: 236.84 BB
Hero (BB): 153.56 BB
UTG: 97.2 BB
MP: 82.4 BB

SB posts SB 0.4 BB, Hero posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.4 BB) Hero has A K

fold, MP raises to 3 BB, fold, fold, fold, Hero calls 2 BB

Flop: (6.4 BB, 2 players) 4 A 2
Hero checks, MP bets 3.04 BB, Hero calls 3.04 BB

Turn: (12.48 BB, 2 players) A
Hero checks, MP bets 8.92 BB, Hero calls 8.92 BB

River: (30.32 BB, 2 players) 8
Hero checks, MP bets 14.44 BB, Hero raises to 138.6 BB and is all-in, MP calls 53 BB and is all-in





vamoooooooo

Roll is at $2000

Moved back to stars, was having bad work ethic, so thought that playing on a better software and with a sn would be cool. Atm I'm playing 1k hands/hour 4-tabling, trying to maximize my hourly, playing a very nitty strat lol, will play like that for as long as I think it maximizes my EV. I expect that it will work well even on nl100. Probably making between 3-5bb/100 in there, but got some rakeback now. Paying 5.7 bb/100 in rake.

Most people can't make the right adjustments vs a tight strat on the fly, the reason why nits have a very low winrate is because they're bad too. I know how to play with wide ranges, so I have a good idea on how both player's ranges work and how playing tight distorts those ranges and how should I change (or not) my strat to account for that.

It's sad to see some familiar faces at 25z on stars, but I'm fine with it, I don't have this sense of pride anymore, I grind for living and it's my job. I ended here because of bad money management and poor work ethic, it's all on me lol. I'm fine as long as I'm playing 5k-8k hands in a day, atm I need to get out of the micros as fast as possible and volume is king.

So far the level of play at 25z on stars is way better than on 25z on bodog, not saying people in there are good, but there are way less random punts by whales. Even had some battles with some of the regs in there lol, quite funny to see how they adapt haha, some guys got me good in there, wasn't expecting that. On bodog I'm right so often, but having a sn means I can't do whatever I want, got to predict their adaptations ( I'm decent at doing that, played tons of HU last year).

Since I'm playing these stakes, will share my ideas on how the games play in there, here are some thoughts on the differences between bodog and stars and 25 zone and 50/100 reg tables on bodog:

Nl50 and nl100 on bodog are basically the same game, played a lot of both and they are very similar, probably they have the same reg pool in there, lots of bumhunters trying to move up to 200 zone. Lots of overbluffing, specially with overbets, never seen a stake where you have to fold mid pair vs 75% and snap call A high vs 2x pot lol. Quite crazy, everyone is trying to angle each other in there, but they focus too much on tricks and have a very weak knowledge of theory. Imo most of the bodog pool is made by nick howard's strats even to this day, lots of regs playing his tactics, so there's a lot of room to exploit those if you know what you're looking for.

On 25z on bodog it's quite interesting, definitely fold vs overbets lol, lots of nitty regs and very nitty check backs, people in there are so afraid to get value and there's so much underbluffing, not as many traps though, tbh this stake is more like a jungle, never seen so many fish in there and the fish are very crazy, lots of tilted regs too. 50z on bodog is very close to 25z, but there are some nuances in there that can shift your strat a lot in some spots.

25z on stars is a nitfest, never seen a place so nitty, it's absurd how many traps that are going there, spotted sooooo many badly played hands that are just valuebets and they trap and go for the x/r. I like protecting some parts of our ranges, but they overdo it, you have to check only a small amount of combos to protect a checking range and people make it too easy to play against that in there, just check back more and they lose a lot of EV. Tbh I have a hard time doing that because I like going very thin for value, but it seems that it's a bad strat to do that in a stake where people overfold and overtrap.

Some hands

H1: very advanced button clicking lol

PokerStars - $0.50 NL FAST (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

SB: 260.9 BB
Hero (BB): 100 BB
UTG: 63.36 BB
MP: 199.78 BB
CO: 92.26 BB
BTN: 100 BB

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, Hero posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has T A

fold, fold, CO raises to 2.5 BB, fold, fold, Hero calls 1.5 BB

Flop: (5.5 BB, 2 players) 3 8 5
Hero checks, CO checks

Turn: (5.5 BB, 2 players) 9
Hero bets 2.62 BB, CO raises to 9.86 BB, Hero calls 7.24 BB

River: (25.22 BB, 2 players) 5
Hero bets 7 BB, CO raises to 35.48 BB, Hero raises to 87.64 BB and is all-in, fold




H2: funny how these guys can underbluff so much everywhere and overbluff to oblivion in some obvious spots lol

PokerStars - $0.25 NL FAST (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

BTN: 276.92 BB
SB: 51.4 BB
BB: 102 BB
UTG: 100 BB
Hero (MP): 125.96 BB
CO: 117 BB

SB posts SB 0.4 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.4 BB) Hero has 8 8

fold, Hero raises to 3 BB, fold, fold, fold, BB calls 2 BB

Flop: (6.4 BB, 2 players) 7 4 2
BB checks, Hero bets 3.08 BB, BB calls 3.08 BB

Turn: (12.56 BB, 2 players) K
BB checks, Hero bets 9 BB, BB raises to 27.92 BB, Hero calls 18.92 BB

River: (68.4 BB, 2 players) 7
BB bets 68 BB and is all-in, Hero calls 68 BB




H3: really like this one

PokerStars - $0.25 NL FAST (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

BTN: 219.96 BB
SB: 129.92 BB
BB: 111.96 BB
UTG: 133 BB
Hero (MP): 103.56 BB
CO: 124.84 BB

SB posts SB 0.4 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.4 BB) Hero has 9 9

fold, Hero raises to 3 BB, CO raises to 9 BB, fold, fold, fold, Hero calls 6 BB

Flop: (19.4 BB, 2 players) 7 5 J
Hero checks, CO bets 9.28 BB, Hero calls 9.28 BB

Turn: (37.96 BB, 2 players) 5
Hero checks, CO checks

River: (37.96 BB, 2 players) 7
Hero checks, CO bets 27.2 BB, Hero raises to 85.28 BB and is all-in, CO calls 58.08 BB






vamooooooooooo

Played 40k hands so far this month, so good to have stars volume, also rakeback is decent, sadly people punt way less in there. Got owned KK vs AA in 200z this month, was showing poker to a friend of mine and went gamble mode just for fun lol, thought it was going to be a boring session 1-tabling 200z, then played 5 hands and this happened lol:

H1:

PokerStars - $2 NL FAST (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

BTN: 100 BB
SB: 103.96 BB
BB: 470.27 BB
UTG: 223.89 BB
MP: 100 BB
Hero (CO): 103.68 BB

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has K K

UTG raises to 2 BB, fold, Hero raises to 8 BB, fold, fold, fold, UTG raises to 22.5 BB, Hero raises to 103.68 BB and is all-in, UTG calls 81.18 BB

Flop: (208.85 BB, 2 players) Q A 2

Turn: (208.85 BB, 2 players) 4

River: (208.85 BB, 2 players) 7

Players agreed to run it twice.

Flop #2: (208.85 BB, 2 players) 9 7 9

Turn #2: (208.85 BB, 2 players) Q

River #2: (208.85 BB, 2 players) 4




H2: crazy lol

PokerStars - $0.25 NL FAST (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

BTN: 103.88 BB
SB: 126.2 BB
Hero (BB): 316.52 BB
UTG: 99 BB
MP: 107.08 BB
CO: 101.92 BB

SB posts SB 0.4 BB, Hero posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.4 BB) Hero has 5 3

UTG raises to 3 BB, fold, fold, fold, fold, Hero calls 2 BB

Flop: (6.4 BB, 2 players) 7 6 2
Hero checks, UTG bets 3.08 BB, Hero raises to 10 BB, UTG calls 6.92 BB

Turn: (26.4 BB, 2 players) 8
Hero bets 25.2 BB, UTG calls 25.2 BB

River: (76.8 BB, 2 players) Q
Hero bets 278.32 BB and is all-in, UTG calls 60.8 BB and is all-in

1k hands per hour 4 tabling?
how is that possible u insta click when u know what to do?
i try to take all the free time on the river for timing tells
maybe that slow me down too much

Do you have any tips on playing vs fish rapi? I feel that this is the worst part of my game. I just keep getting wrecked by them

~1k hands/hr is normal for 4 tabling Zoom.

Please don’t tank till the last second otr. It’s annoying and it reduces the number of hands/hr played at the table. Make the bet in 3-4 seconds when you have it and do the same with bluffs. No one’s gonna exploit you.