With the additional info on Villian. I would say his range is probably KJ, KK, JJ, AJss and ATss. I doubt he raises UTG+1 with QTss. KJ also becomes less likely when he raises preflop in early position, but it is still a possibility. However I still feel like you are ahead more than 50% of the time and should call/ship any non spade turn or I prefer just reraise all in.

If he limps with kj, then it is a fold but the real issue is the flop chr

Sent from my DROID X2 using 2+2 Forums

Wouldn't he (v) play AA the same way?

Lol...love to hear what's wrong with c/r the flop.

I wanna know what happened with the rest of the hand!

And I don't see anything wrong with the CR.... please explain. No one's gunna bet bottom set on board like that when you have an agro asian that will do the betting for u. I would have done it exactly the same I just wanna know how the hand plays out.

Cr is totally fine

Stand by my orig post ... especially if he limps KJ, good table + solid play + deep stack + marginal situation = fold. If you fold you should show one 2 just for the hell of it. No one will think you folded a set and you'll get some nice action later.

Stop pandering for results, we'll get there.

The problem is that everything went the way you thought it'd go - OP checked, aggro Asian bet, OP raised and now aggro Asian seems perfectly willing to play for stacks when he 3b.

I see where 11t is going with c/r bottom set because it gets us into the same situation but reverses the position of who is calling off. If we go b/3b though, we are forcing V to stack off with the draw, rather than allowing ourselves the possible mistake (albeit small) of folding bottom set.

I might be giving Villian too much credit with my previous post. He might play AA this way, but AA is pretty much as good as AK here. Although I would think most half decent 2-5 players, even the super aggro asians, know reraising a check raise with an overpair against a solid player is very -EV.

it isn't bad in the sense that you have a set of 22 and that a lot of his value range is likely going to continue that he continuation bets with, and without knowing what his cbet frequency is as a function of his original range is bluffs. Like without detailed reads it's hard to give a really complete nuanced answer.

What I'm saying is that the situation where we flop a small set oop and have the option to chr or lead is a much higher frequency than the situation where we are faced with a 3b after we chr. therefore it's more important to understand when to chr and when to lead.

fwiw any player I have marked as aggressive or LAG has enough two pair and combo draws for me to stack off here but if he doesn't have KJ or those combo draws in his range we should be leading because is possibly folding AA, AK, KQ, QQ etc to the chr and multi street aggression which is very bad for us.

Sent from my DROID X2 using 2+2 Forums

I love to C/R on 2 flush boards because villains can rarely fold to me but if I c/r in this spot then I've already made up my mind that I'm willing to play for stacks. Since I've already considered what I will do if he raises, I ship here always. Otherwise, I wouldn't c/r a wet board like this.

TDS: perfectly said, that's what I was getting at, if im willing to cr here I willing to ship the stack. I thing flatting here is a horriable idea. If any of the draws u can put v on hit on the turn now what lay down with 7 invested. I would re pop all in and if v wants to chase ur now making him play for his stack. He may feel ur cr is you on a draw. Get it in with the best. Im putting him on AsA? like I said with a back door nut draw

Yeah that's what I'm getting at, a chr here is to play for stacks comfortably. Otherwise leading is better imo.

Sent from my DROID X2 using 2+2 Forums

I def see where your getting at here, I just feel the opposite is true. I feel like if I lead here then I am playing for stacks. If I donk bet 60 it does allow him to raise with AQss type hands bc he does have decent fold equity especially being so deep, so in a sense I feel that leading keeps his range wider.

The more I think about it the more I do like leading here, but if he raises me I am always bet 3 betting. Sizing prob goes something like 60-210-675 once I 3b I'm never ever ever folding. Maybe I'm just looking for a way that I can get away from my hand.

C/r is going to narrow his range significantly for his 3 betting range, Vill is pretty agro but he is not a complete moron and isn't on any sort of tilt.

With these factors I folded, he flashed a Kc and mucked. That makes me feel pretty good about my fold. But we will never know.

Where is the damn hole card camera when you need it???

Here's a thought, feel free to argue against it (more of a view I just put into words):

c/r bottom set is often not more than a move to end the hand as you're very rarely going to get action from worse and the range of hands that will continue AND that you're ahead of is almost exclusively top 2 and 14 out draws. In light of this, leading keeps v's range wider, thereby getting calls from more hands.

Obviously dependent upon your sizing, but assume 2/3+ PSB.

I'll try to hash our what I'm thinking later, I'm at work now and I have to take the gf out for her birthday dinner later but after that I'll update.

Sent from my DROID X2 using 2+2 Forums

Why are you always bet 3 betting? That makes no logical sense.

Sent from my Samsung Galaxy Note 2

If I'm donk betting a hand like this on a board like this then I'm going to get as much money as I can in as fast as possible

Wow, considering he only showed you one K, I really feel like you folded the best hand here. Maybe I'm just a little biased. Last time I folded bottom set at Winstar I had 2 all-ins in front of me on the flop and had the best hand on the flop and would have had the best hand on the river in a $1000 pot before I put my money in.

To chip in on the donk betting vs c/r. Against someone that aggressive I like the c/r better because he misses the board completely 2/3 of the time. If you donk bet right out you get no value from the aggro asian, since he knows you hit the board pretty hard at that point. If you know he will c-bet 95% of the time here, you get the most value by c/r the flop and more likely than not he folds to the c/r.

Donk betting to fold seems pretty bad here. I'd be much more comfortable with a b/3b line than a c/r/get it in line. The b/3b line allows V to call with hands that are behind whereas you've committed to the hand. c/r/get it in seems more like a sigh call or fold.

Very disciplined fold though. NH.

Very grooose fold IMO.

This is the exact line AA and AK makes.
Feel like KK may not 3b here why scare you out of the pot?

Yes, and generally that is the case when you check/raise a hand like this on a board like this as well. In fact, I'm never check/raising here without being willing to get it in. However, a donk bet allows for some pot control if you wish to take it. Regardless of the line we are still not sure of whether we are ahead or crushed. I'd rather call his raise (of the donk bet) and let him spew some on the turn/river. Scare cards could slow the action if we are crushed and I'm ok with keeping the pot smaller given our holdings here and villain's relatively polarized range. Also, we should have a better idea of whether he has a value hand or a drawing hand based on the turn action.

This is the exact line AA and AK make if they are lacking in brain cells...which a large number of live low stakes players are but if he has half a poker brain this line is never being taken with those holdings.

The over arching reason not to chr is that, if he is tight enough, it value cuts vs his range.

Sent from my DROID X2 using 2+2 Forums