A classical conversation between an optimistic kid, and an older more pessimistic 2+2 user/ old school poker crusher ( 10nl ):


Kid:
"Hey man, this year I want to build a roll. I start with 2nl and move up trough the stakes until I reach 100nl by the end of the year "

Forum user/ 10nl crusher back in 2008:
"Stfu kid. It's not 2009 anymore. Everything is different. The only thing wich stays the same is your ***** dream of moving somewhere further then 5nl one day."

Optimistic Kid:
"Thats so mean. I will prove it! I'm gonna play 16h a day, and study 9h a day. Every single day! Beside that I'm going to meditate every morning and evening after my 15km runs!
By the end of the year I'm playing 100nl and I'm telling my mom that she finally gets her basement and her chair back. Goddamn she will be so happy, and I'm happy for her! Maybe I should buy her a house? We'll see."

10nl crusher from 2008/ proven 25nl winner, but database lost:
"Calm down kid. The ground feels less hard when you hit it, if you don't fly this high."

Newschool overmotivated poker player kid:
" I will show them all!"

End of the story...

It's actually not the direct end of the story.
The young kid started to take his dream serious and grinded like a ***** beast. The first couple days he also invested some time into studying. But not for long.
Soon he made a blog in a forum to stay motivated. He started to switch to mtt's since they are so soft. 1 week no post. Then, kid writes post about some personal real life stuff that has happened, and explains why he didn't made any post. 2 weeks no post. People started wondering if he was busto. One year later he started a new thread wich was named, let's spin it up - 5$ spin and go's and beyond...Never heard from him again. Rumors say he lives in tom dwan's basement. But no evidence for this.

The older guy was a though one. He was playing poker, while we young fellas didn't even had any hair on our balls. He knows the game. Tight is right and all these essential parts of the theory. From time to time he fall back into the poker spirit and played some under rolled 25nl shots on stars. He once ran his roll up to over 200 usd. But then lost it all due to pure runbad. Nothing he could do. But he decided to call the site rigged and move on with his life. He still playing some live tournaments in his local area. And until this day he's a loyal user of the 2+2 forum to share some of his advise and poker knowledge to the world, while posting some comments from time to time.

The end.



Truth is, there might be around hundreds of player in this forum, who would be capable of beating a given stake or format, but they will never beat the game anyways.
Anyone who has the willingness to put in the hours, and study the game, will reach a point where he's ahead of the competition in a given stake. But that's not enough.
The theoretical part of the game, icm, gto, ranges, huds etc, etc.
All this knowledge is for nothing, if you have a weak mindset!

These days I hear people complaining about everything.
Site is rigged. I'm too unlucky. The rake is too high. It's too late. Everybody knows gto. Or some"personal life stuff" happening wich keep them from going on.
These are all excuses for a bad altitude.

If you want to be better in poker, and moving up trough the stakes, you need a strong mindset. And you need to be honest to yourself. I don't give a damn about your bankroll. So if you want to crop some hands to post a nice looking graph, go on. But if you want to become better in the game, and in life in general, you need to pay attention, and be honest.

How many people actually run up a roll from let's say 250usd to 10k. Haven't seen this many lately. Even tho so many dream of doing so.
Will you tell me, that from all this people, there's no one beating the game? Bulls**t.
There's no one beating their own mental issues. Like tilt. How many go broke because they tilt. Probably play higher. Invest the 1k roll into a Sunday special. All or nothing.

A big part, to succeed in this online poker world come's down to your mindset.
Can you run 50 buy ins under EV in just 10k hands and still not feel affected at all?
Well, if the answer is yes, you should consider playing plo for a living. xD

Too many of us get caught up in the upswings and heaters. Life is easy when you're winning. But we start to focus on short-term stuff. After crushing 50NL for 25bb/100 over 8k hands, people start thinking, how much they can make in 100k hands, based on these short-term results. Running breakeven is running bad. Losing a session leads to tilt, cause this trows them off pace to reach their 25/100 over 100k hands. See what I mean?

Stay realistic. Go for challenges, and moving up and down the stakes, but be honest, and move down when losing, not up. Your bankroll will thank you.

Peace and Looove. <3


In Part 2, I will write about some different approaches to build a bankroll if you're on a budget. And I'm gonna tell you what I think is the best approach for me, based on my knowhow and all the factors in play. This is really depending on so many, like format, win rate, rake, experience, time, tilt control etc. There might be some more aggressive approaches and some very conservatives.

look forward to part 2

"Stop being the sheep, and become the lion my friend!"

This is the second part of my thoughts about bankroll building and moving up the stakes in 2022.

In the first part I talked about the importance of the mindset, when you want to succeed as a poker player.
In the second part I do the exact ***** same!
Cause there is no stopping in telling you how important this sh*t is.
Yes, I will get to the numbers and interesting stuff soon, but first there's one big message to speak out loud:

"GET YOUR SH*T TOGETHER!"

By that I mean you need to be completely free from distractions. And every little thing that comes to your mind right now, when you think about your to-do list.
Just do it. Then play after.
Poker is not your job yet. And if so, you're doing something terribly wrong if you're trying to build a roll.
Get your sh*t together my friend. You must stand with both legs in your life.
No ***** bills waiting on the kitchen table to get opened. No dog waiting to go for a piss. No bad intensions cause you had "no time" for a workout or whatever fascinating you beside poker. No unhealthy sleep schedule. No trash everywhere around your workspace or sh*t like that.
Andy far the most important point: No ***** debt!!!

If you live in debt, that's ok. Most of us did at some point in our lives.
But there is no chance you have your sh*t together when you're living in dept and play online poker with your money.
Go get a job. Work your ass off for a year. Live like you're down under. Like in your dreams where you committed full time on poker. But instead you commit on working hard. Stay in touch with the game. Study as much as you can. Stay in shape or get in shape and PREPAIRE for your comeback. But first off all you pay back every single cent, and then you're getting a step closer to having a chance to get the freedom your looking for.


"Patience is key"

Don't even know how to spell patience. But that's not the point, ok.
There is no better feeling then patience. Can you imagine to never feeling stressed again?
That's something most of us may have to learn in life in general. Stay calm.
There is nothing more attractive then a calm person. ( I got this from a study wich was done recently with over 4 people. 3 male, 1 not sure )

Be patient. Building a bankroll needs time. Overcome variance, needs time.
Don't get stressed out about a single spot or a single bad bead. Don't set yourself a stop-loss. Set yourself the goal to get stronger in seeing the big picture, and stop tilting.
I know, I know. Easier said then done right?

Now some facts about building a bankroll:

First off all there is no one thing fits all type of management.
Too many factors to consider. But you can make your own thoughts after I shared my information with you, and let me know what's your gameplay, and why it should work for you.

The first real question is with wich amount do we start?

I used to say you should start with at least 100usd. Where I come from, every kid can even spent 250usd once in a while to try and build a bankroll. If not, then they don't have their sh*t together and need to go back to step 1.

If you can't afford 250usd for gambling, you maybe shouldn't. If you really want to play, go working one weekend at a local bar. E voila! 250 Bankroll to start with. Lets go!


So we have decided to start with 250usd. No excuses!

Peace and Looove <3

In Part 3 of this post we continue with our gameplay and strategy and take a closer look on how to build a plan and stick to it! Looking forward!

Here we go! Part 3 of this blog post.

"A goal without a plan is just a wish!"

For those who are just here for the giraffes: chillax. I'm doing this bankroll building thing from scratch and post regularly about the process and share some more thoughts and tipps you can use to improve your own strategy. But first this needs some preparation.
Being prepared for such a challenge, mentally and physically is a must in my opinion.

So we said we start with 250usd

The first question wich comes to my mind is: How to choose a format?
That one is easy for me, cause plo cash is my bread and butter.

But what about you?
How you gonna decide wich format to play, if you haven't found your sweet spot yet?

Some people might tell you to start with mtt's since you don't need to be really good in the game to beat micro stakes mtt's, right.
They might be right, but you need to consider other factors than that.

MTT's:

If you play mtt's you need a very solid tilt control. They can be very frustrating, and the variance is super high. Especially on these bigger field sizes.
If you know you can not handle those huge swings in your roll, you should choose another format.

BUT! If you choose to play mtt's to build your bankroll, you should only play reg-speed, no turbo or hypers. ( Unless you're a gambler and just in there without a plan. )
Mix in some smaller field sized tournaments as well, and be prepaired for long sessions over 8h+. Hashtag Pissbottle. And you need to be able to multi table a lot of tables while playing your best game.

I will make a more detailed post about mtt's in the future.

If I would play mtt's to build my roll, I would go with at least 100 buy ins for the highest stake in play. The more the better.

I've done that with a 100 usd roll. Started with 0.5 and 1 usd mtt's. Only reg-speed. 10+ tables. Started to mix in 2 usd tournaments with 200 usd roll etc. Took me around a month and 1000 tournaments to grow close to 5k. But that's not norm, just a story. I have a very solid mindset, wich allows me to play the format I want. So keep focus on that.

If this sounds like you're style. Go for it!

Then there's Sit'n gos and Cash left.

SnG's:

I do not even start talking about sit'n gos too much. They have been a blast and a true blessing in the past. For those here that have been around a couple years, you know what I'm talking about. Times of Supernova and Supernova Elite. 6 Max Hypers or Don's. Or 18 man's or even 180 man's.
I miss those timeshare you could turn up your software and fire 20 tables from whatever you wanted.

These times or over. At least on PokerStars. You could play on GG or Party if your country allows it. Mine doesn't. But I do not think that it's still an opportunity to go very far in these sit'n gos these days, if you really wanna put in the grind.

Only option I would go for would be the 6max hyper satellites. These are still running quite frequently and you have the potential to play very high.

CASH GAMES:

Lets go. Cash is what I would say the best option for a bankroll-builder in terms of consistency.
You can play as little as you want. You can focus on zoom games and have an immense learning curve due to the amount of hands you play.
Once you beat a certain stake, you move up. Not ready yet? You move down. The stakes start at 2NL. If you want to take it serious and learn the game while competing out there, against the rake and a little bit against other players, go for it.

Another upside from cash games is the time-management. Play when you want, as long as you want!
This allows you to be very flexible with your schedule and leaves a lot of room to keep your sh*t together.

I usually play 1 hour sessions. With a 5min break after 25min. I set up the timer for those 2x 25min. The only rule for the 5min break: stand up and drink a zipp of water at least once per break.

After every 1h session I do something else for a while. This depends on what's up. But it's part of the plan-making-process to think about stuff like this.
I usually go for a barefoot walk with my dog. You can do it without a dog. I don't know why so many people think they need a dog to go walking anyways.
Barefoot walking is a great way to feel grounded again. Sometimes I go through fields or woods. Just really getting calm again and feel the earth underneath the feet.

Sometimes I plan a workout, followed by a nice snack and a shower. Or a bath. Or maybe I play some chess. You got the point. It allows you to plan in some stuff wich is important for you to do, to stay balanced. I recommend to step away from the tables for at least 30min after every 1h session. Then you can continue the grind if you want so.

BTW: Keep your workspace clear and clean.
I can't stress this enough. Once I managed to keep my working space really clean and nicely, I started to feel way more focus.

For the time on the grind, I put my smartphone away. No distractions! We only go for 1h, including the break. This must be possible without watching this little fker. No phone in the 5min break! Thinking! We want to think about hands and go over some spots in our head, so we can adjust later on.
Usually I have in-ear headphones for even more focus. Then I recommend some really nice vibes sound to go for it. Not too loud. Just in the background. Something like this---->

https://youtu.be/xznu_NvPWXc

I will talk about anything from anything in more detail once we started the bankroll-building challenge. If someone is reading till then. But I guess once I post some giraffe there might become interested.

Bankroll- Management:

When it comes to name a buy-in recommendation, I can say it depends. It depends on your skill level, your stake, your ability to deposit again and if you're able to move down in stakes if necessary. In general I would go with the most aggressive bankroll management I can use without going broke.
Since the rake is this high on micro stakes, it makes sense to leave them behind as fast as you can, and become a breakeven grinder on small stakes. From there you can learn and also learn from a tougher competition. Once you're good enough to make adjustments during the session you will improve automatically and move on to mid stakes at some point.

For someone who already has a good edge, I would recommend at least 35 buy ins. If you move up you take a 5 buy in shot. If you drop below that you move down and rebuild.
If you're not moving down when you should, you can find yourself busto within a blink of an eye. So be patient.
Once you reach a bigger stake, you add 5 buy ins to the management. This way, you make sure you overcome the micros as fast as you can, without pushing the risk of ruin too far.

If you're playing PLO, I wish you good luck with the variance. I've seen strong men going under behind the massive swings of the great 4 card game.
Therefore I recommend you to at least 1.5x the amount of buy ins you would play no-limit holdem with.

That's just my recommendations.
For my self I have chosen a even more aggressive approach. Thats because of multiple reasons:

I played up to 2kNLO8 at some point and played way over a million hands in PLO. Therefore I might have a bigger edge at the lower stakes then usual.
Don't want to go too aggressive like this tankroll sh*t or something like this. But at the same time I'm very ok in taking a bigger risk to leave the micros fast.
So i will go with 25 buy ins. And then take a 5 buy in shot at the next stake. I can allow myself such an aggressive approach, since I know for sure that I can handle to move down in stakes if needed.
If you're not for a 100% sure you're able to do so, I recommend a safe 75 - 100 buy in bankroll management.


That's it for now.

The next step for me is to step into the field myself.
I'm very exited to share this whole bankroll-building advise blog with you people, and I hope that there might be some or another that takes out something for them selves.

Peace and Looove <3

Next up will be a post about the first day on 10plo zoom and some reg tables. I played 4 session overall for about 4h in total.

"Good planing without good working, is nothing!"

The challenge is to run a 250 bankroll to 10k and talk about the process, and share some thoughts and hands along the way. No exact time limit. As quick as I can without going broke. But no reason to hurry up. I want to stay balanced all the time and only play when I'm in a good shape mentally and physically.

As mentioned I'm playing a more aggressive management of 25 /5 since I'm ok in moving down if necessary, but do not recommend it to anyone else, since it can really testing your will to move down, and you might end up blowing your roll.


Day 1:

Smooth start into this challenge. Catched up a heater right away.
Played 4 sessions a 1h, like I describe in my previous post.
Mostly zoom.
Call it a night now. Gonna take a walk with my dog and listening an audiobook.





Peace and Looove <3

Technical issue

I put in another 5 1h sessions on sunday.
Was up around 35$. / 3.5 buy ins.
But when i checked the tracker there were like 300-400 hands missing. That obv. su*ks ballz.

What‘s the point in tracking and posting results when they are inacurate.
There was a spot where i slow-played a flopped full house on AAQ flop with AQ109 and then foldet on the K river.
Was going to analyse the spot, but the hand was missing.

God thanks there are multiple ways to build a bankroll when you habe your mind in the right place.

I started this thread to help out other players growing their own roll and guide them thru the ups and downs off such a challenge while showing honest results.

Today i will figure out why pokertracker isnÂ’t working properly or if itÂ’s not working i look for a new plan how i can put this thing together.

Maybe i start a new thread wich will be based more towards results then theorie, we will see

Thank you for very interesting posts. A lot of things you are describing here are directly relating to my issues and weaknesses in poker. So I will keep reading and trying to improve. Keep doing great job and good luck at PLO tables.

However, I will try to disagree with you from time to time. If you have a big, relevant sample, then missing 400 randomly selected hands should not change the overall "result". It matters only if you want to show a small sample from lets say, one session you played on a given day. In the big picture, as long as those are random hands and not removed like '400 biggest lost pots', then it should not screw you data too much. You can just mention that some hands are missing and I don't see it as a dishonest move at all.

I think a lot of us have troubles with understanding some aspects of statistics and big data. In todays poker environment I think it is almost impossible to grind infinite number of hands with the same pool while maintaining same skill level. And this is what we really need to find accurate values of some estimates. We are improving and pool is also changing on average. Maybe play money pool and Zoom NL2 are closest to constant environments but other than that I would say it is very difficult do grind significant sample under the same condition in order to find your "true" winrate.

Look at how HS games are working now. Samples are not enough, tables sometimes are with 2 fishes and reg can get +10bb/winrate, sometimes it is reg-battle and nobody really knows who is winning. I don't think those HS bosses really look for true winrates and big samples as it is impossible for them to get those numbers.

First off all... Thank you very much for your reply!

You truly motivated me to stay here and go further into this thread with some insights about how to create balance and how to get into the zone.
Lastly this thread is about building a roll in 2022, but for me this topic contains so much more detail, then just numbers, to perform.
Every player who comes here and takes the time to read my thread until here, has some basic understanding about bankroll management.
But not as much have a bankroll. This has two reasons:
1. They are too lazy to put in the time to understand some basic key concepts of the game, like: position, bet-sizes, ranges, icm etc.
2. Thy have trouble getting their head in the right place and think in the long run, and therefore getting affected by short term results. Which leads to bad play or even tilt.

Quality over quantity!

This is what I would suggest in 2022.
What you said about the constant changing environment, is absolutely true up until 200zoom. ( In MTT's it's different. There I feel like I'm playing a lot with the same guys on the 55+ lvl upwards. )
But this changing environment has lead to many changes in my own game as well.
I do no longer use any kind of HUD. I only use notes. And I use a lot of notes and colors. If you can focus 100% on the game, without any distractions from outside or inside, it feels like soul-reading. But you need to be able to pick up every piece of information that your opponent is giving you. And sometimes if the concentration is low, you might miss out some very important informations. That's basically why I play 2x25min with a 5min break in between and then call it a session. After every 1h session I must do a 30min break away from the table. Then come back and repeat. This is very important to train, cause it gives you so many benefits. And as a cash player you can make use of this benefits, while others might not. Working on your edge wherever possible. Another positive point about this time-management is the fact that you know when the session is over. And it's easier to reset, call it a session,and go for a new one. If you have trouble with running bad and then playing bad as a reaction, it protects you from going broke as fast. Cause by the time you realize you're running like sh*t, and start spewing around, your session is over. By the time the goal is to not get affected by this at all, but we are at the start of this thread, and I wanna have some things to talk about later


Man, high stakes are crazy. The highest I've played regularly myself was 2kNLO8, 200PLO and MTT's up to 215's and some 530's during scoop, wcoop etc.
But I'm a big fan in terms of watching high stakes. I love to open up different lobbies and watch high stakes for hours or until it breaks. This is pure entertainment.
100k PLO games on GG as example, where they 5bet-jam 3 handed with absolute random hands. Sometimes I think it would be so easy to exploit these players mistakes, but on the other hand, you will never find out if you beat these games anyways, as you said. I would love to be rolled for some high stakes action, and jump in when there are finally some tables running. Just for the love of the game and the excitement. But it's such a high risk, cause you can run so far from your EV, without even knowing what your true EV is.

On our level, it is not really important to find your true win rate. The plan should be to get better, improve, and move up in stakes as fast as possible, without unnecessary risk of ruin. You can play poker for the money, or for the competition. I'm a competitive person and I love to challenge myself and become better in what I do. And in poker you can mess your skills on the field. If you fail, you go back to the lab and prepare to go out there and fight again. Money is a factor in play, but it should not be the only reason why someone is playing the game. There are tons of ways out there to make way more money, way easier. The goal is to improve. And poker can be a good catalyst and motivation to free this inner thrive for freedom and better yourself as a person over all. But it's so ***** important to not lose yourself in the seek of money.

I need to make a point here.
I'm very happy you left a reply and I'm stoked to talk more about poker and mindset in general.

Peace and Looove!

I think I have found this thread at the right time! Used to play SnG and Fifty50 where average stack size is 40bb and less. I want to give myself the chance to get good at poker with 100bb stack. starting from the buttom and get good. starting Online at low stakes and also eventually be able to play fearless 1/2 live.
Do you recommend any course for cashgames ? Where to start.

Heiii Bibinow!

I'm happy you found my thread.

I used to play 50/50's back in 2016. At first they were called Double or Nothing. You hit top 5, you get paid double your buy in. Sick format to grind for rake back. They were running 24/7 up to 300's and they actually helped me to get my supernova status in just under a month. Then they switched the payout structure and renamed them to 50/50's.

Let me use this reply to talk a little more in depth about:

The transition from SnG's to Cahgames:

Having a background in any format will help you learn another. It’s easy to learn different formats; just read a book or watch videos on pros playing live. The kicker is knowing your why: why do you want to switch? If it’ll improve your game and put you into some serious money, then it’s a wise choice, but if it’s because everyone’s playing them, that’s not good enough. It takes time to master new things, so transition for the right reasons.

Main Goal For Sit n Go’s: Protect Your Stack, Moving Up The Ladder
Main Goal For Cash Games: Getting As Much Value As Possible From Every Hand/Bluff

Cash games are an entirely different beast that focus on playing individual hands in isolation to maximize the expected value. You want to net as much cash off your opponents by making clear-cut exacting decisions that drive them to fold. As such, you want to be confident with your postflop play. Cash games have less external variables than with other formats for easier decision making, however, you need a deepstack to play and with that comes more variables. There is no fear of elimination if you bust, all you have to do is reload and game on.


When you make a preflop call with a deeper stack, you’re not committing a significant percentage of your chips like in SNGs, thus allowing you to make speculative calls. The more hands you play preflop, the more postflop situations you’re in. You don’t need to play a tight range of hands because you’ll make up a lot of value postflop with implied odds as you’ll have 30x the preflop raise behind you – enough to move opponents off their hands.

Don’t be pot committed. In SNGs, when you bet half your stack you end up calling because having so little left if you lose is useless. In cash games, you can invest any amount and fold whenever because you can always reload. Don’t get tricked into thinking you have to call just because the pot is so big, if the odds aren’t in your favor it’s better to fold.

There is no pressure if you get stacked, just reload. It’s easier to gamble with a strong draw because the penalty of losing is smaller than in tournaments. So if you find a good spot, go for it.

Expect More Fluctuations In Your Stack Than In SNGs.

Since you’re going to see more flops, you can make more speculative calls, float more often, use semi-bluffs and play more aggressively. This will lead to fluctuations in your stack, but these variances don’t matter, so long as you’re making good decisions your stack will grow. Cash games are about little gains that eventually grow into sizeable bankrolls.

Get Comfortable With Floating, Multi-Barrel Bluffing.
Get out and learn advanced techniques for deep-stacked poker, like multi-street structure, as this will give you an edge.

Where to start?

Beside this thread I'm currently working on a project I call "The Paroli Project"
It's a completely different bankroll-management system, which might be perfect for your situation.
The goal of the system is to move up way faster than usual, and overcome the rake trap as quick as possible, while following a solid bankroll management anyways.
The faster you can allow yourself to play higher, the better you will get.

A lot of people think that if they learn cash games, they can play the same game on every stake. But that's far off the truth.
The higher you go, the more you need to understand on which level of knowhow your opponent currently is. That way you can color-grade them and adjust your own style, based on you're opponent, and not only playing the cards you were dealt.

To understand this concepts is really IMPORTANT!

But in the "Paroli-Project" I have figured out a way, to player higher stakes then usual, but still minimize the risk you take. That way you allow yourself to play vs better players more often, and get more feedback from your own game. This will show you where your biggest leaks are, cause better player will exploit you, and therefore you spot your weaknesses much faster.
We need to create room to make a lot of mistakes early on. Therefore we can grow faster and get there faster.

If you're interested in a post about my project let me know.
I only have couple thousand hands on it, cause I just started working on it, parallel to this thread.
But I made a similar project a couple years ago, and this is like a better version of it, with way more "regulations" to follow, and details you should not underestimate. Cause these adjustment in the project are based on mistakes I made in the past, wich decreased the win rate and I don't want you to do the same mistakes as I did.

Even tho the project is in the starting feet, I can write a post about it, and maybe you find it interesting enough to give it a shot yourself.

Thanks for the reply!

Peace and Looove!

I talk a lot about how to optimize so many things beside the pokertable, to maximize your edge this way, but less about theory at the table right now.

But i can tell you almost any YouTube video or free online content, which provides good value in my opinion, based on 10 years of researches.
Therefore I need to know your language. Cause I can understand German as well, and I know couple of really good videos to start out with,, which are in German.
If English is your go to language, then no problem, I will combine some links to some videos, which in my case are covering a good amount of basic principles to start the learning process, and move up the ladder over time.

Peace and Looove!

French is my first language and english is my second one.


I know I have a liscense for HM2 Somewhere too. I know HUD is restricted on some sowfwares but I wonder if Database still works on them without hud for studying later

So yeah really looking forward for that bunch of links

Will write down plan tonihht at work and will try to figure a wau to post it here