I understand what you were saying. I'm just saying what is going on in my head when I am playing these types of hands. I love the discussion this hand generated so far and look forward to more

What I would like to see is how would Verneer have played the hand if our cards were switched?

Great stuff. FR rush is swongy for me and some sessions are truly brutal - and seemingly for you as well for that terrifying session - really looking forward to seeing your thinking re: adjusting.

What I've personally noticed from this level is:

- Earlier in the day it tends to be a fit/fold nitfest. <10vpip for the most part. Stealing/cbetting relentlessly works really well. I play nitty as well but around this time I'm stealing the blinds with pretty much ATC as most of them have already zoomed off to another table. Big pots at this time are inevitably coolers or stuff like overplayed overpairs. If they're playing it like a set, it's a set. No exceptions

Later on, and my best guess for why this happens is the influx of maniac euros getting home from work(maybe?), there is some RIDICULOUSLY loose play. Anybody with any stats on me knows my UTG range is JJ+ (and that's when I'm in the mood to gamble), but at this time of day I get several callers from guys I don't have stats on - which sucks as I invariably get my aces cracked by a Q3 2-pair or some bull****. Started raising 4x, occasionally 5x in EP which seems to have helped in reducing the number of callers during this time. Overall though this is definitely the most profitable time (1-4pm US time I think) to play, valuefest innit. Here, big losses aren't coming from coolers so much as blood-boiling, soul-destroying bad beats.

Just my 2c. Would love to see how Verneer adapts and what he notices. And how he controls his anger at the beats/coolers of course

00Verneer ,Im winning since iv moved to 10nl and iv played about the same amount of hands since you have started your challenge.One huge problem i have is that i seem to get into marginal situations and where i cant find a fold even when i think im behind.

Some guy 4bet me from the button when i was holding kk.He has something like a 1 per cent 3bet range but yet i still couldnt find it in me to let go off kk so i called and he showed me the aa.Another hand last night when i got min 3bet(.65) by the bb while i held qq,I didnt have a clue what to do so i 4bet to about 2 dollars.He flat called oop.He never 3bet once before so i knew something fishy was up although he had poor stats and he didnt look like a grat player so i didnt give him credit for anything.He check raised the flop and turn and stuck it in eventually.He had kk and lose a stack.

My discipline is letting me down.It was the difference between winning 2 buyins yesterday and losing 1 buy in .I dont til ever but i do things like this where i just cant find a fold.Any tips that you have notices at this level to avoid these situations.Should i just trust my hud complelty and let the hand go rather than get into unwanted trouble?

I was like that for a while (stealing all the time with ATC), but the people seem to have adapted the past couple of weeks. Maybe it's because they have HUDs and now they have some stats on me, so they see me as a stealer, but lately whenever I try a steal with ATC, I get re-raised by the BB almost every single time. That's fine if I have cards, but when I don't, it's a problem I've had to back off of that for a while and only attempt to steal with decent hands.

I went just the opposite. I used to always open with 3xbb raise from UTG/MP and I got a lot of callers it seemed. Then I noticed that people who limp/min-raise in front of me almost always seem to have monster hands and if I re-raise I'm sunk. Now I started just minraising from EP/MP myself (unless I have AA, KK or AK which I still pot) and suddenly I'm not getting callers any more. I guess people are leery of the early position min-raise like I am. I've picked up more pots from UTG by minraising that way lately. It's very strange.

How did u pdf the thread? Sorry, I'm new to 2+2 and still getting my bearings.

There is a pdf of the old thread that you can download.

http://www.yourfilelink.com/get.php?fid=598240

Wow, thanks! Christmas in January

2+2 is amazing. Why did I ever spend all that $ on books???

pretty sure verneer won't advocate "didn't have a clue" to be a good reason to bloat the pot.

Yep, not a good reason.

Fair enough Im not really discusing a hand.Im asking about the concept of staying out of marginal spots.Fish flat calls 4bet oop.I have over pair to flop,dont know what to do.

Reason i 4bet(not because i didnt have a clue) is because i see fish min 3 bet with pretty much anything 22+ a10+ etc. so i 4bet to take back control of the hand/ make him fold some hands and get value from weaker ones.Usually i expect a fold here so when the flop comes rags i dont know where i am at all.I end up spewing off stacks.

Then just chalk it up to variance.

I also received a free week for CR, it's an awesome deal!

I watched a lot of Verneer's videos back in 2008 when I was playing more, so I have no idea which video/videos I'm thinking of and honestly it may have been another instructor. The crush the micros series is good...

Most of Veneers videos are great because he is very thorough. I like the format of a few videos that I have watched were he breaks down each street by giving options and then talks about which option suits which villain type best. Gets me thinking more thoroughly through hands were before I played each street almost separately where I was looking for a specific result.

So for looking for a specific video from the past, I wouldn't worry about it. All are good and you'll pull little details from each one.

my point was, you created the marginal spot with a hand that your not certain where your at. sure QQ is a value hand in most spot, but if your feeling not sure if its marginal or not, then just flat the 3bet and go from there.

edit: if thats the reason then go for it, but you have to honest if thats what you were thinking at the time. if it is, then just chalk it up as variance and fish hitting top of their range. but be honest in assessing if your analysis. and don't do it posthoc

Update: Just finished 20K hands. I'm up $89.74, but will be doing a detailed HEM analysis before moving forward. The goal will be to smooth out some of the valleys I've been hitting.

please berate me for this so i can stop, id be shocked if anyone thinks this is a legit stackoff

Any notes or reads? In general a minraise is a very strong hand (although this applies more to the turn than the flop. He raises your lead with a player left to act behind him, which is another sign of strength. What hands do you think he does this with that you beat? KQ? I don't think so.

for 220bbs deep, i dont think im stacking off here. i may raise his min raise, but once he shoves, im folding and feeling pretty good about it.

He most likely has a set. I would guess Kings, but could be 7s/6s. Either way, you're beat. With that kind of action, it's almost always a set from what I've seen.

the only real hand you beat that he stacks off with on K67 is AK and the preflop action and your two blockers makes that really unlikely so the way the flop action goes this is 66/77/67 almost always

There are valleys in that graph? lol Wouldn't want to know how you would explain mine. More like a sin curve lol.

As per the AA hand, I like the way you played it other than the called 4bet. Really the only hand you have beat is AK like many others have said. Its is hard to get away from aces but the way the flop played out was just very suspicious and you could fly up the ranks if you could just avoid these marginal situations.

yea he doesnt shove with anything i beat except ak.
preflop: oohhhh aa, yes got a 200bb stack to come along
flop: lets bet to get some value, nit voice in head: min raise hmmm smells like set, fish voice in head: oohhh he wants to give me his 200bb stack i raise!, nit voice: uhoh he shoved def a set, fish voice: shut up! he wants to donate his 200bb stack! i call!
turn: fish voice: ace, ace, ace, nit voice: shut up it aint comin...stupid
river: fish voice: u were right again, nit voice, im always right ldo idiot

yea if i could eliminate those calls of villain raises where im crushed 99% of the time, id be at nl10 already

This is awesome. I was one of your lurkers last year verneer, and finally moved up to 25NL. My goal this year is to advance to 100NL, sign up for CardRunners, and build the bankroll 10K.

As a side, I just got the book Analytical No Limit Hold'em by Thomas Bakker. I'm 140 pages in and it's great so far. For being a book for crushing mid-stakes, I definitely think there's a lot of value for the micro stakes players too.

What site do you play on?

What are some of the things you like about the book? Some of the lessons you got out of it?