Would like to leave my preference. Bluff catching river would be really nice, been always gray area for me, sometimes it works sometimes not.

I would really enjoy some nice Note taking(who, what and why). It could really help a player at so many levels and note taking would help to improve bluff catching river more than vice verca.

Looking forward to your 20k hand filtered analyze verneer!

Sure - this is something I can address later. In general, you can play loose preflop and on the flop, but your requirements for playing a big pot go up dramatically on turns/rivers.

I got a free week at CR due to getting enough points on FT last month... can you remember the name of the video where it shows Verneer taking notes? I'd like to check it out.

Verneer stacked me today

I don't know what the etiquette is... can I post the HH in here? Or is that bad form?

Go for it.

Ok, here it is:

This is how my whole past 2-3 weeks has gone. 86/14 after the turn and lose

Grabbed by Holdem Manager
NL Holdem $0.10(BB) Replayer
SB ($14.04)
BB ($4.40)
UTG ($6.16)
UTG+1 ($3.05)
UTG+2 ($6.72)
MP1 ($12.27)
Hero ($11.37)
CO ($20.39)
BTN ($10.25)

Dealt to Hero K A

fold, fold, fold, fold, Hero raises to $0.35, CO raises to $0.80, fold, fold, fold, Hero calls $0.45

FLOP ($1.75) K K 2

Hero bets $0.90, CO calls $0.90

TURN ($3.55) K K 2 3

Hero bets $2.50, CO calls $2.50

RIVER ($8.55) K K 2 3 Q

Hero bets $7.17 (AI), CO calls $7.17

Hero shows K A
(Pre 70%, Flop 79.7%, Turn 86.4%)

CO shows Q K
(Pre 30%, Flop 20.3%, Turn 13.6%)

CO wins $21.37

Thanks for doing the videos.

I think you should do it on Note Taking. It'd be more valuable to players at this level.

So do you think shoving river after a 4th heart comes is optimal play? What i the world would he call with here that doesn`t beat you? Me thinks you stacked yourself.

Looks like verneer figured you had a king and called in trying to gage your kicker.
I think.

Any insight on the hand's play verneer?
I've not seen much play like this, usually value bets would be my personal choice with trip K.

So what are your thoughts PF, Flop, Turn, and River? As in ... why did you play the hand the way you did?

What do you mean by:

Value bets on whose end?

I figured you for a King after the flop, and I knew I had a better kicker so I felt good there.

After the turn, I had only made about a 2/3 pot bet. I figured if you had hearts you would have shoved.

The shove on the river was because I thought I had you beat - and yes, this is probably why my graph looks so horrendous the past couple of months

*edit* just a couple hands before that I had gotten slow-rolled by Quad K's, so I was probably tilting a bit too...

Honestly, I felt that your river play was out of frustration. What worse hand would you expect me to call with there?

Also, what other hands can I have on the flop to 3-bet with preflop and call the flop? My range has to be wider than just a King, right? I mean ... if I 3-bet JJ, QQ or AA, I'm not going to fold to your flop lead. If I have the AhAx or QhQx, I'm going to call the flop and call the turn. Same with AhKx. Same with JhJx probably.

I was thinking on your own end.
With hindsight it looks like you recognized that both of you had a king.

The point I was thinking of was when the third heart appeared, you could use it as a scarecard as a semibluff to avoid the risk of an ace or heart appearing

I understand this isn't true value betting in the strictest sense, getting him to commit more to the pot but rather betting to protect your pot commit since he had a better hand.

Perhaps betting into him throughout instead of calling would have been safer if he could place you on having pocket 2's as a full house.


Hey, I'm the student here, this isn't criticism but more like sharing how I think as a player.
If it was me as your villain, I would place you on two pair as QQ or AA. I would be way off

I think flop and turn calls are fairly standard. Raising the flop is unnecessary, as is raising the turn (although it's much closer).

Thanks, I'll need to work on this.

I have leaked out with overaggressive postflop play with occasional hands throughout my HH. Big losses.

Actually, you are probably right there. It is so rare that I win a showdown in Rush poker that when I get to the river with what I think is a winning hand, I almost want the other guy to fold. I hadn't thought of that, but you could have a good read on me there

In fact, come with me as we go inside my head... here is what was going through my mind during that hand:

================================================

Man, it's early. *looks at clock* got about 30 minutes before I have to get ready for work. Wonder how much of my Ironman bonus I can clear by then? What sounds good for breakfast? Hmmm... Wow, I can't believe that guy slow-rolled his quad kings... that really sucks. I should make a note of that...

*click 'last hand' and start scrolling back a couple of hands*

Stupid dog is barking again. Wants back in now. I'll get him in a minute.

*finds the hand*

Yeah, there it is. I'm going to note that. I want to remember this guy.

*new hand is dealt*

Hmm... AK... late position. Looks good.

*starts writing in the note window - table beeps at me, action is on me*

Nobody else is in the hand yet. Ok... That's good. I should open with a good raise... Oh, crap Verneer is on my left. If I make a bet from CO+1, he'll think I'm trying to steal. But if I don't bet, that would be stupid. I'll just do a pot-sized opening bet. That should be ok.

*bets $.35*

*Verneer raises to $.80*

Oh, crap... he 3-bet me. Now what? I have AK, that's a good hand, but I rarely ever flop anything with it. I can't fold here, that would be stupid, but I always miss the flop with AK, so I better not re-raise. I'll just call.

*calls*

*flop KK2*

Jackpot!! Top set, top kicker. Oh man! *deep breath* Now, how do I bet enough not to scare him off. He must have something, he re-raised me preflop. I don't want to bet too little... but I don't want to bet too much... I'll go about half the pot.

*bets $.90 - Verneer calls*

Hmmm... this is not good. He must have a king too. But so what, I have the better kicker. If nothing else, we'll chop if he has AK.

*turn 3h*

Still like my hand, but there's hearts out there now. *sigh* he probably has a flush. Why do they always get a flush against me? *sigh* But I can't just check here, that'd be stupid. But if he doesn't have a flush yet, I don't want him drawing one either. I'll go 2/3 the pot.

*bets $2.50 - Verneer calls*

Uh oh.

*river Qh*

Crap, 4th heart. But if he had hearts he would have 3-bet the turn wouldn't he? Surely he doesn't have hearts...

*shove - Verneer calls*



Crap! I'm going to be in his video now!! "Top ten things not to do at NL10 Rush!"

Shoving on river is really bad in this spot, with 4 harts there (and you have none of them) you will be called with at least flush or higher.

Has anyone commented on how grossly misplayed the flop was too? Maybe not as gross as river, but flop is still a standard c/c to let villain (verneer) value cut himself or bluff with worse. You're still getting the same number of streets of value vs. verneer's value range by c/c down instead of donking.

@ verneer, 3bet pre with KQs is for value? Do you expect to get flatted with dominated hands? And is that standard sizing for you?

This is fantastic. I m buiding from 2nl (I have a thread in this section somewhere).
I m at 30nl right now with 3400 euros.
I must say that you teach well.
The previous thread is available as a pdf which is by far the best, most complete poker book I ve ever read.

Note taking.

Maybe it's because of some bad luck lately, but I have resolved not to c/c any more with a good hand. I have been sucked out so many times by letting someone have a free card that I'm really hesitant to do it.

Most people I run into at 10NL rush will either fold or shove after this flop. If I bet more than half the pot, they fold almost always unless they have a King too. If I check or bet less than half, and they have a King, they shove. Of course, if they shove here, I'm calling, but I'm talking normally. In my (limited) experience it's really hard to get any value out of this flop.

Obviously Verneer is not the standard 10NL rush player.

I would like to second this request. I would like to better understand how relative stack sizes should be used in my decision making process during a hand.

I think you should take a break and recuperate given how pessimistic your poker mindset seems to be in.

I'm not sure if you misinterpreted my post, but I was talking more about the action of betting being bad, not the sizing of it (although it is pretty bad actually imo).

When you donk you want to get value from worse hands right? Sure you'll stack verneer's KQ, but you would've stacked it anyway by letting him bet/bet/shove. You might pick up one bet from weak hands like middle pairs, but verneer will probably cbet it anyway and you'll get the same value from this portion of his range (probably more because when turn goes check/check, you bet and he might herocall - when you donk twice he's folding his mid pairs). From verneer's bluff range or range that missed the flop completely, you lose a cbet by donking because he's not gonna put any moves on you on this flop texture when you donk.

just my friendly 2c as far as strat discussion goes.