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#MillionClub - It ain't cheese if it's less than a mil' #MillionClub - It ain't cheese if it's less than a mil'

02-01-2013 , 08:24 PM
haha i have a crush on gramps
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02-01-2013 , 08:56 PM
The politically correct thing to do is to say something middle of the road and allude to future tipping, but I am not a PC person.

At restaurants I tip generously. I tip floor people generously because they provide me a service - sometimes very generously if they call me when a good game is running, bump me to the front of the line, hold my spot in situations where people would normally be bumped off, etc. -- things improving my hourly very significantly. This is the principle of voluntary exchange - we both benefit economically from this arrangement, and it is a basis of economics and even tipping.

But this dealer tipping thing is basically a joke. For example take a $500+50, it lasts an hour and the combined rake paid was already $500. (There's no rakeback in live tournaments either, el oh el.)

At EPT Deauville when I didn't tip on 450k I got harassed many times, and many months later. That's my choice though. If employers don't pay their employees properly its the employee's problem and certainly not my problem. Maybe if no one tipped, the management would find an extra $30 or whatever out of that $500 to pay the dealer. The truth is, most of the reason that tipped staff become upset is because it affects them. They use social mores to their advantage. If there was no advantage to seek, few would stand up for these principles. Anyone can fight when it matters. A hero fights when it doesn't.

I'm not saying I'm a patron saint of dealing employees, but you are shifting the blame in the wrong direction. I don't deserve to be harassed, not by dealers and certainly not by you. It is not your business how much I choose to tip.

Last edited by Alex Wice; 02-01-2013 at 09:10 PM.
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02-01-2013 , 09:13 PM
Theoretically youre tipping to bring the wage of dealers high enough where competent people will do it. Similar to waiters in restaurants. It's different in poker because the top finishers are footed with the entire task/bill. If you don't want to hold up your end of the bargain when you win I guess that's your right but expect people to give you **** and please dont call yourself a hero for doing it.
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02-01-2013 , 09:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rusemandingo
Theoretically ... If you don't want to hold up your end of the bargain when you win I guess that's your right but expect people to give you ****
I'm not calling myself a hero. I think you misunderstood. I was saying that the tipping staff complaining loudly are not heroes. They can only be heroes if those tips don't directly affect them. Because it is hard for them to be objective.

Second, I expect people to give me **** but I don't equate that as agreeable. It is my firm belief that the right way for individuals to act with respect to this issue is to respect my right of choice.

If tipping were so mandatory, why don't the mgmt just eg. autograt the dealer? The whole thing is smoke and mirrors.
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02-01-2013 , 09:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mecastyles
haha i have a crush on gramps
same, i like how he induces trolling optimally / with the fewest words
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02-01-2013 , 09:27 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4sbYy0WdGQ
/ Tipping discussion.
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02-01-2013 , 09:35 PM
berating someone for not tipping in single table satellites is pretty absurd, the dealers (in rio STT sats) are horrible and being overtipped hasn't helped them improve yet
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02-01-2013 , 09:36 PM
Dont think you should have to explain yourself for not tipping poker dealers already making 5 to 25 times minimum wage for shooting cards and sitting around. Most of these guys already make 60-100k with no stress. Id kill to have that job. No downswings.

Tipping is usualy ******ed if you ask anyone that was raised on the metric system

what you refer to tipping in the first part of your post is more a bribe than anything else. Which makes more sense
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02-01-2013 , 09:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex Wice
I'm not calling myself a hero. I think you misunderstood. I was saying that the tipping staff complaining loudly are not heroes. They can only be heroes if those tips don't directly affect them. Because it is hard for them to be objective.

Second, I expect people to give me **** but I don't equate that as agreeable. It is my firm belief that the right way for individuals to act with respect to this issue is to respect my right of choice.

If tipping were so mandatory, why don't the mgmt just eg. autograt the dealer? The whole thing is smoke and mirrors.
When your choice is 100% selfish how do you expect people to respect it? The dealers don't get paid **** without tips.
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02-01-2013 , 10:01 PM
My bad, misunderstood the hero part. (Still do a bit)

A lot of places have made tipping mandatory by adding dealer/staff fees into the buyin. Pretty much everyone hates those. Having someone who is happy and has just won a lot of money foot that bill is prob better for business than having everyone pay before.

It's not like there's this big bag of money casino owners have that they can either keep or pay dealers with. If noone tipped then youd either get way lower quality dealers or players would end up paying the costs in some other way.


Quote:
Originally Posted by ...|...
Dont think you should have to explain yourself for not tipping poker dealers already making 5 to 25 times minimum wage for shooting cards and sitting around. Most of these guys already make 60-100k with no stress. Id kill to have that job. No downswings.
I've never dealt but this has to be one of the dumbest things ive ever heard.
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02-01-2013 , 10:17 PM
what did you expect from ....|....?
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02-01-2013 , 10:26 PM
As a pro gambler and someone that def "lives a little", tipping comes into my consciousness more often because I spend a lot of money per year on tips, and activities I enjoy are more likely to involve tipping. I would estimate that I have spent at least (lowballing here) $50k in my life on tips. Because of that, it has come into my mind more than for most, what the appropriate behavior is or should be.

I have also been to 26 countries and lived for an extensive amount of time in various parts of Europe and China [combined time ~2yrs.] Based on my first hand experience with seeing how a no-tipping culture can operate effectively (of course, keeping in mind the context of the median wages in those areas etc.) I reject the premise that these types of tipping systems are necessary or even optimal with respect to the consumer.

I am not ashamed of my views on this issue and see no reason to tip in cases where I am not being provided a substantial benefit. At restaurants or sometimes bars, I will often tip 30%+ because I am being provided special treatment - eg. the staff all know my name, head chef comes out to greet me etc. which is very powerful socially or on dates etc. In this context (poker), there is no real quid pro quo.

I might tip $1-2 from here to there when winning decent sized pot, but it is more for entertainment really, and I would be comfortable tipping $0 total at a cash game. I think many people underestimate the substantial effect that tipping has on your win rate and how much EV is actually gained from it. I think it is relatively proven in studies that people do gain happiness overall from charitable contribution, and I would tend to agree that it is a significant force for the culture of tipping - providing an outlet for people to tip and feel good about themselves.

Yes, I 100% agree my choice is selfish. So in many ways I am not an objective vehicle for my views. However, we are clearly talking about a business transaction, not a charity. In this context it makes no sense to be charitable.
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02-01-2013 , 10:35 PM
Well move to one of those countries and not tip. Not everything you do should have return for yourself. I hope you get berated constantly since you are essentially stealing small amounts of ev from all the regs that tip.
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02-01-2013 , 10:42 PM
Thisiswhywecanthavenicethings.jpg
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02-01-2013 , 10:42 PM
I kinda feel stalked by Facebook as this just appeared :

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...ess-needs-tips

Seriously I`m stunned I`m reading here about this tipping and then suddenly this appears, not sure if coincidence or not.

I`m quite sure you are a Sociopath btw.
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02-01-2013 , 10:45 PM
Simulation theory brah
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02-01-2013 , 10:46 PM
tipping is optional not compulsory? i dont see a problem if thats the case...
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02-01-2013 , 10:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ditch Digger
Well move to one of those countries and not tip. Not everything you do should have return for yourself. I hope you get berated constantly since you are essentially stealing small amounts of ev from all the regs that tip.
lol wat
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02-01-2013 , 11:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by hoodskier
lol wat
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_rider_problem

Ok i seriously need to stop reading this thread.
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02-01-2013 , 11:10 PM
i heard MO tips really well
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02-01-2013 , 11:11 PM
I don't agree that the free rider problem is applicable in this context.
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02-01-2013 , 11:17 PM
meh, was having a bad day and went off a bit, but still stand by the point i made. the STTs are different than cash games because in cash games people typically tip when they win hands, so that raises the wage that the dealers are making. in stts/tournies you dont tip during the game, but in tournies there is a % of the prizepool withheld for the dealers/staff and I do not believe that is the case for STTs.

i have thought about the case for tipping after winning a big tourney and actually lean more towards your side of the issue in that if there is already money set aside, you shouldnt have to tip significantly for that unless the dealers really arent getting much of that. however, that isnt the case in STTs as dealers get paid $15-25 per satellite which is almost always a <$10/hr rate (http://www.wsop.com/pdfs/dealers/dealers-tip-info.pdf). is that my fault? no, of course not, but imo it is fair to simply give a tip to help make up the difference.

i personally feel that people who have an attitude about tipping like yours are insufferable, and again, im not somebody who says "lol, you tipped 15%?! that should have been 30! they have to live!"

edit: also i didnt literally force him to tip the dealer, IIRC i just wouldnt agree to the chop unless we set aside some amount of cash for the dealer
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02-01-2013 , 11:22 PM
The free rider analogy doesn't hold. In this case there is negligible additional value that I am consuming. In the restaurant case it holds - the value I get as a client is different from the value that other people do. It is not Pareto; but it scales and has reasonable fit.

In the poker case it does not hold, or at the very best weakly holds. Tipping largely has no effect on service, and if it does, it is likely only because they are upset / blaming you for their problems. Tipping without receiving something in return is charity by definition. Going somewhere and spending money is a business transaction. I see no reason to provide charity in business transactions.

Additionally, since the price mechanism does signal the allocation of resources, it is actually suboptimal for society as a whole for me to tip. But of course I am not a saint, and this is not the reason I don't tip. I will repeat that my choice to not tip [in cases where I am not being provided additional value] is solely to pursue my own objectives and for my own benefit.
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02-01-2013 , 11:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Picasso
edit: also i didnt literally force him to tip the dealer, IIRC i just wouldnt agree to the chop unless we set aside some amount of cash for the dealer
You are within your rights to pursue this, so I lay no blame on you.

At the same time, you may not understand the scope of your decision. Suppose I was backed and playing these (I wasn't but there are many such players), in that case I would be faced with a choice of paying eg. $50 or whatever out of my own pocket, or playing on.

Coercing one person to give money to another isn't being Robin Hood. At the same time I just accepted it as part of dealing with Vegas and moved on, didn't mention it to anyone and I had actually forgot about it until you brought it up.

Edit: My BR was different then so it causes my utility curve to be different at the time, but I would actually overall choose to reject the chop and play on, because I feel in eg. a $2500 hyperturbo hu, that $100 or even $50 is certainly worth playing for wrt my hourly (not to mention I might have a skill edge too.)

Last edited by Alex Wice; 02-01-2013 at 11:39 PM.
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02-02-2013 , 12:01 AM
Doesn't the freerider problem pose a great argument against the tipping culture? When there is no tipping culture, waitresses etc are paid by the restauarant itsself which charges the client for the service. Thus nobody can be a free rider. When tipping is demanded by customers on a system of good faith where everyone will tip, free riders can rise and pay less by not tipping. Bad waitresses will still receive complaints from customers and will be laid off if necessary.

Granted I'm from a western europe where there is no tipping culture so maybe I don't see the USA situation clearly. Note that in 90% of my encounters with waitresses etc I am very happy with their service and on those rare occasions where service was superb and provided me additional comfort or w/e, I will tip something small as well (which is pretty much how it works in all of western europe).
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