I've been a recreational (mostly) MTT player for about 2 years now. This time last year I had an ROI of about 50%, owing to a few good results in shots relative to my ABI. I decided to focus almost solely on Sats/shots, which is also around the same time I started to study somewhat more intensely. I had a great deal of success in Sats/sub-Sats - Sat ROI (if that were a thing) in the 1000's% - while next to no success in the target tournaments (I suspect my actual ROI over most sites has become dismal, although it's now irrelevant).

I put this down to several factors, specifically:
1. I don't believe that I give an MTT as much care when I've qualified rather than paid the BI from my bankroll, perhaps feeling that I've already won and have nothing to lose.
2. I became a lot more aggressive after I ramped up my studying, playing a lot more hands and betting/calling lighter than I previously would have. Perhaps I was mis-applying concepts from my studies, but this is improving all the time.
3. Not being rolled for re-entries - this was never a problem previously, but it could be a contributing factor. Though what I will say is that when I previously took shots I felt as though I had an edge from not being rolled, ie I would be extremely careful with my chips and focused intimately on the action.

So, with the lack of success from that route I was back wondering how to make poker profitable, long-term. I have a family including two children and am very reluctant to put much money into the game (risk) that could be going into savings, despite having a reasonably good job.

I decided to give 6-max cash a go, with small deposits (a few hundred $'s) on a couple of sites. I prefer the zoom format, so have gone with that. I found myself running up a roll pretty easily at 10NL/20NL. But several times now after very small downswings I've found myself jumping into the 100NL/200NL games, perhaps to quickly make up my losses rather than grind them back. I've doubled or tripled my roll then quickly lost it all in one or two huge hands, despite getting it in really good more often than not. Yes there is money to be made very quickly at the higher stakes, but it can be lost just as easily. I also seem to care much less about money won than my deposited roll, which is obviously a huge leak and something I need to quickly rectify (hopefully with this thread/a plan/BRM).

This has re-enforced the importance of BRM, which will now be my foundational principle along with study/attempting to improve. So I'm making this thread to hold myself accountable and to receive advice from those who have been there an done it.
As much as I'd like to play in the higher stakes I just can't risk the investment, so will be grinding 10NL and concentrating on improving my game. I'm not sure how many BI's I want before I move up and any advice in this regard would be appreciated. I'm currently winning on one site and about break-even on another (despite the enormous shots gone wrong) and I suspect my actual win-rate at 10NL is pretty big, but we'll wait and see. 10NL feels like playing for pocket change, but if I'm not prepared to deposit and I want to play profitable poker then I don't have much choice.



So, cliffs and goals:

I want to make poker profitable by using BRM and sticking religiously to 10NL 6max Zoom until I have enough BI's to comfortably move up (I'm not sure yet on the exact number required). This thread will hold me accountable.

I want to improve my game and mindset as efficiently as possible. I use PT4, PIO, RIO, and have various video courses. I want to put these to the best use possible and discuss hands/problems with winning players (one person I talk to fairly regularly is an incredibly good winning player and I'm very grateful for the huge influence he's had on my game and mindset).

Life goals include continuing to support my family/do activities that support our wellbeing and happiness, without hurting anybody else. This is absolutely fundamental and poker/money is a relatively small, secondary thing. But it is a main hobby and I want it to be a healthy and profitable one.

well if you live in the US you have no chance of that because all the sites are dead or garbage

if you dont live in the US keep playin mtts on pstars

I live in the UK, but my friend is from the US and his ROI is 50%+ with several hundred-thousand-$'s of profit. I already know how soft the games are there and here, and they're totally beatable with adequate BRM

your friend is a unicorn. online poker in the US is dead. its the same players playing each other over and over because there is no one else left. Just look at the numbers of players. dont take my word for it

If ur in the UK play on those Euro sites... which by the way arent what they used to be without US players like back in the day

You better not be puttin too many of your eggs in this poker dream. thats some real advice m

No, he's a real human with a verifiable sharkscope (no I'm not sharing). I actually know several winning players from the US.

I don't think you actually read my post (poker dream?)

My win-rate at 20NL thus far is about 12BB/100 after a sample of about 5000 hands wheareas my 10NL win-rate is only about 5BB/100 over a similar sample, so I might concentrate on 20NL instead and see how it goes.

Tilting.. Stupid sizings

(6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

BTN: 148.9 BB
SB: 168.8 BB
BB: 108.2 BB
UTG: 125 BB
Hero (MP): 166.3 BB
CO: 42 BB

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has A A

fold, Hero raises to 2 BB, CO raises to 5 BB, fold, SB calls 4.5 BB, fold, Hero raises to 11 BB, CO raises to 25 BB, SB calls 20 BB, Hero raises to 40 BB, CO raises to 42 BB and is all-in, SB calls 17 BB, Hero calls 2 BB

Flop: (127 BB, 3 players) 9 T J
SB bets 126.8 BB and is all-in, Hero calls 124.3 BB and is all-in

Turn: (375.6 BB, 3 players) 8

River: (375.6 BB, 3 players) 5

I'm feeling sort of aimless so decided to scrap the 10NL/20NL idea and do a bankroll challenge. I want to start from the very bottom, so 2NL and 50c MTT's and grind up as far as possible. Since it's not about the money, this way if I make it high up the stakes then I will be able to say that I started at the very bottom.

Basic rules will be as follows:

BRM - Cash 50 BI's
SnG 50 BI's
MTT 250 BI's

Workout before every session
(asanas, weight routine & light run)

HH review after every session

Video study when not wanting to grind


Since there's no financial goal there won't be any time limit - I'm just going to grind as I get time and update here (for myself if no-one else). I'm going to withdraw the money in my account leaving just $100.

I really never understand why people spend/waste so much time starting at like 2NL. Like what a dumb waste of time. It’s not like you can really work on your game there anyways. The play has to be atrocious and so far from a normal strategy to beat those games. Just jump into like 10NL like you were doing with a $100-$200 roll. The risk o ruin in a game where you can probably have 15bb/100 is extremely low even with only 10 buyins.

I didn’t mean to call you dumb, just the idea of grinding such micro stakes is.

Meh, there's no risk of ruin at any of these stakes because I can just redeposit. Money isn't the point, I kind of like the idea of grinding right from the bottom with a proper roll. If I'm clearly beating games then I can perhaps put in a little cash injection to speed things up to the next stake

*On the post above - I remember watching a Rio video of Chidwicks where he claims to have grinded up to where he is from freerolls and that's post black-Friday. I remember thinking how much of a testament that is to his skill/aptitude/etc. It's not that I'm looking to replicate what he's done, but if I'm ever going to make it at poker in any way then I'd love to know I that started at the very bottom and worked my way right the way up.


First impressions of my new grind: win rate so far after a nothing sample is about 40bb/100 at 2NL and 64bb/100 at 5NL ($2 buy-ins). That's only after about 1100 hands, but the standard is noticeably poor even compared with 10NL/20NL and whilst my win rate will be nothing near that, I'm sure it's still going to be something insane. Will continue grinding these stakes until I have a decent sample and am sure I'm crushing them. I might then speed things up a bit and jump stakes, but we'll see.

Qualitatively, I'm actually enjoying the grind as much if not more than 20NL. It's nice not giving a rooty toot about money and just being able to play poker freely. It's a good sign, because it shows me that I just love the game and that I'm not in it for the money. It's not even the competitive element - it's more about striving to optimise and perfect my performance and just play optimal poker, regardless of results.

I was sucked out on 3 times in a row in one MTT, but that's obviously a good thing and testament to how soft it is. Still in another MTT, which was a 100BI shot (I didn't include that in my rules, but particularly at this time it's so soft that it has to be +ev despite it being a huge field. I was playing up to 1k's not so long ago, so you'd think it would seem strange grinding 50c/$1 mtt's but actually it just feels totally normal because it's within my newly founded BRM rules. As I said previously, BRM/study will be my foundational principles. Goals, stakes, results blah blah - all irrelevant.

So increased my BR by 20% after the first session. I don't feel like too much adjustment will be needed to beat these stakes: tightening up in MTT's as players are wild and it's difficult ranging V's in cash, ie I was stacked with my set of 7's by a river straight with V holding 96o that should never have called pre, let alone made it to the river with a gutter, but these things are gonna happen and I can't make adjustments based on outlying hands.

So spending the day doing some housework, ie sorting out the attic room and workshop and continuing work on a van I'm converting to a motorhome (hobby as much as anything). Will be doing a fitness session in a few hours before grinding tonight.

When I got tired of cash last night but was still in the MTT, I found it really helpful watching a Rio video to keep me going (something I don't normally do whilst grinding) but otherwise I may have just shutdown the tournament and gone to bed since the prize is barely worth grinding when tired. But it's ideal to use that kind of time to study.

Ended up shoving K8o from CO with 5bb and getting called by KJ. ICMizer says that it's a pretty +ev shove but to me felt super-close. Still the cash helped boost the roll a little and made up for the 3 suckout re-entries from the other mtt