I am going to check that 40% OTT math - seems off.

... but great discussion. Visibility is a good point, but has to be considered with "what is villain coming along with". I give the edge to Aesah's argument so far - that AAxxss, when it hits, is guaranteed to not to be dominated / splitting equity (nut flushes and top set cannot be duplicated)... but then again, villain has to have a specific hand to be dominated and willing to go in deep.. especially considering how obvious top set and nut flush are?!?

My rookie thought has always been I like AAxx with small SPR and huge SPR, and KQJT is steady at any SPR and only better than AAxx at ~mid SPR.

KQJT is more likely to find a dance partner deep, but with smaller, sometimes negative, average edges when the money goes in.

AAxx ss is rarely finding a deep dance partner but hero is certain to have a bigger edge...

With AAxx, hero may have to fold top set OTT and there is a huge chunk EV never realized. KQJT has maybe as much missed EV when forced to fold flops that would runner-runner nuts, or even can miss EV when bluffed off flush by a blocker.

Ok - for me - AAxx ss

Enough fish to pay you with mid set and non-nut flushes... and those smaller uncontested wins really are a huge EV contributor.

/end my derail

This hand happened at my 2/5 table two weeks ago: I didn't see exactly how the action went, but there ended up being two shorter stacks (say $300 each) all in PF, and a bigger stack (around $1200) re-potting it all in, or practically all in. This player is the absolute nittiest PF player in our game. Everyone knew he had AAxx, 100% of the time. The action got back to a guy who also had about $1200, and he was only in the pot for the first raise at this point. He showed us AA74ds and mucked.

There was argument over whether this was a very good or very bad fold. I see the argument that yes, chances are the other guy's aces are either single suit or offsuit, so there's an edge there. But how much is that lessened by the crappy 74 with it? Also, the main pot is being contested by the other two players, so a decent amount of the time (maybe most of the time?) it's only the side pot he'd be fighting the other aces for. Yes, the side pot would be bigger than the main (about $1200 in main, $900 of which is potential profit, and about $1800 in side, $900 of which is potential profit), but still a consideration.

I'd like to hear everyone's thoughts on this. I'm going to post this in the PLO section (where it belongs, of course!), but there seem to be some knowledgeable PLO contributors here, so I figured I'd put it here as well.

This is an easy fold and it has nothing to do with side cards, AAKKds is a fold here because your equity is almost cut in half since you're chopping with the other AAxx hand when you're lucky enough to hold up.

Easiest thing to do is just use propokertools.com and check your equity and see if you have the pot odds to call.

actually nm you're fine 4-ways. two nut suits give you 15% on it's own solely from winning with flushes and you only need 25%. my mistake

For me it depends on the situation. In general, I'd prefer AA74ss.. Although, I rather KQJTss OOP vs a good reg than AA74ss. Playing the turn/river with a dry overpair is really tough vs a good reg (can vbet thin). They can force you to make tons of mistakes.

Since were talking about live poker, I'd prefer AA74s because villains generally suck. They will allow you to make fewer mistakes- aka you can b/f flops and play turns more correctly.

NM. Saw your follow up post.

Its an easy get in.

Hi Don, I played some 1/2 PLO today and would like your opinion on my play, thanks in advance.

Hand 1:
Reads: not much, just notice Villain is deepstacked and won the last 2 pots with flush and fullhouse, and has not been folding preflop since I sat down.

Preflop: Hero OTB with QT97hhcc.
Limps to CO. CO bets $6. Hero calls, rest of table calls along.
Flop ($42): AJ8. Checks to me, I bet $30. Villain in EP calls.
Turn: ($102): 7 Villain Checks, Hero Checks.
River: 4 Villain Bets $50. Hero tank folds.

Good fold/bad fold?

Hand 2:
Reads: Villain is tight, this is the first hand I saw him play.
Preflop: Hero is BB with T866cc
Limps to SB. SB raises to $6. Hero calls. Rest of table calls.
Flop ($42): Q64
Checks to Villain in UTG+1. Bets $25. UTG+2 calls. SB Calls. Hero calls.
Turn ($142): K. Checks to Villain who declares POT. UTG+2 calls. Folds to Hero. Hero folds.

Did I play this well?

Hand 3:
Stacks: $250eff.
Reads: Villain 1 is 2/5 or 5/10 NLHE reg. Only comment I heard about him is from a dealer who says "you want him in the game". Villain 2 and I are starting to have a dynamic I think. He keeps trying to steal my button and is raising about 75-80% hands preflop. Previously, I have 3bet him with KQJTdd, got called in other spots and took down a JJ3cc flop.
Preflop: Hero is CO with KKT8
limps to V2 who bets $6. Hero 3bets pot to $30. V1 calls. V2 folds.
Flop ($70ish): T84
V1 checks. Hero bets $50. V1 Pots. Hero ships. V1calls.
Turn: 7
River: 4


Hand 4:
Stacks: Hero has $153, V2 has $300ish, V1 covers.
Reads: Same Villains as Hand 3:
Preflop: Hero is UTG with KQJ2
Hero limps. UTG+2 limps, V1 limps. V2 in BB raises to $15. Hero raises to $52. V1 calls. BB calls.
Flop ($160ish): J64
V2 says pot. Hero calls all in. V1 ships all in. V2 calls all in.
Turn: offsuit 3
River: offsuit 8.


Hand 5:
Stacks: $200
Reads: Same villains AGAIN from hand 3/4.
Preflop: Hero is SB with AQQJ
Limps to V2 OTB who raises $12. Hero 3bets to $30. UTG+1 calls $30. V1 in MP calls $30. V2 calls.
Flop ($126): AQ7
Hero bets $126. V1 calls. Rest folds.
Turn: 4 Hero bets $42 all in. V1 calls.
River: K


Hand 6:
Stacks: $200
Reads: Villain kind of tight, a bit of a station as well, having paid off with nutstraight vs topboat and also 3barrels trips no kicker and hit one of his fullhouse outs against another player. This is the hand immediately after hand 5.
Preflop: Hero OTB with KQJ9cc
limps to CO who bets $12. Hero 3bets to $30. Villain in HJ calls. CO calls.
Flop ($95): AJJr
Villain bets $30. CO folds. Hero raises to $100. Villain ships, hero calls $70more.
Turn: 8
River 4


Is my general approach to 3betting fine or maybe too aggressive? I thought the hands I've been getting combined with the image I'm starting to have made it a good 3bet.

hi in general this post is too intense for my thread but i will see if i have any suggestions

hand 1. standard.
hand 2. seems ok
hand 3. seems standard
hand 4. this hand is really bad to limp/raise with IMO. unlike NLHE, you will basically never have fold equity here so you're always going to showdown with this line and your equity is not great.
hand 5. don't 3-bet pre since you can't continue vs. a 4-bet (from most players). as played, bet less on the flop to induce action since you can easily get it in with 2 more streets.
hand 6. call flop. you want to give villains the chance to make a straight since you make a boat if they do (or chop on a T).

I would never 3-bet hands 4 or 5 ever. in hand 5 you don't want to have to fold a great hand to a 4-bet, and in hand 4, you're behind a range even as wide as 30%:

ProPokerTools Omaha Hi Simulation

600,000 trials (Randomized)

Hand	Pot equity	Wins	Ties
KdQhJd2h	47.72%	279,864	12,883
30%	52.28%	307,253	12,883

Thanks, I'll need some time to digest that.

I tried to post the HH in a readable format to get a good response rather than just post a bunch of words and hoping for the best. I guess if its too much, I'll just direct you to my thread or PM in the future.

In hand 4, I think I'm somewhat aware the preflop equity wasn't really all that good. But why do you say I am always going to show down? Its somewhat likely neither villain has a hand that doesn't need to connect the flop hard in order to continue (such as AAxx/KKxx) so on most flops, can't I just semi-bluff? It didn't happen that way but I was going to shove any J/Q/K high flop or any draw and expect to take it down a decent amount? I dunno, they were both really loose as you can see in the result so I wonder how often I'm in terrible shape if I shove and get called.

I think you are right about hand 5/6

not to be rude, a question here and there is ok but I don't think it's fair for people who pay for my coaching to be directly answering so many specific questions here.

regarding hand 4, it is possible but rare that someone will win without showdown, but the problem is that if you're not continuing without a pair or draw then that guy won't always be you.

Occasionally running into this thread and enjoy reading it every time.
GL!

Hand 5 plays really well vs a wide range that button has. Surprised you don't 3 bet that.

Only read first 2.
1) I prefer 3b pf. As played post flop is fine. You can also bet smallish on turn for value/protection vs sets and 2pr. But most often I play it same post flop.

2) fold pf for sure. Bad hand in general and your relative position will be bad. Post flop for sure lead. I think lead>cr>xf.

agreed.. I'd 3b vs 15%+ opening range

i would probably 3-bet hand5 vs. a BTN open too.

hand history makes it unclear exactly how many, but there are at least 3 people who limped (plus 1 more in the blinds, so 5 total hands) who will 4-bet AAxx frequently enough that I'd rather just flat here.

Edit:
2) I meant lead>cr>cc>cf


3) good
4) I prefer calling his raise pf > limp rr given his range should be strong and you will get 4b often. On flop I'm not happy but do call off given spr and 2bdfds.
5) don't just post hands because you lost. Obv 3betting premium QQA and betting mid set is good.
6) either flat or 3b is fine. This rundown plays well multi way so flatting is fine. On flop when somebody leads into pf 3btr on A high flop its pretty damn strong. Start by calling. You may not fold but i don't like raising.

Regarding pf on hand 5, worrying about getting 4b isn't a big enough reason to not 3b. Given you have an A. AAxx only comprises 1.25% of hands. If he is iso'ing 20% from btn he will have AA less than 1/16 times.

btn isn't any more likely than any of the limpers to have AAxx

Btn didn't limp. He is most likely to have AA given he raised pf. The limpers are very seldom going to have AAxx given they didn't raise pf. Their limping ranges are going to be wide and often not contain many combos of AA if they have have a pfr range.

Sometimes i dont understand how we both played at the same venues yet you don't witness the same things I witness (in this case, AAxx being limped more often than not by a random player).

Especially if ParallelFlux's hands are in chronological order, then I would expect the vast majority of players to limp AAxx if they have a player raising 75-80% of hands behind

Yeah, I notice AA being played passively in general live.

Yes many players are passive and yes they limp AA. So lets say that a random player is 2x more likely to limp AA than to raise AA. Most live passive players are loose as well. So lets say that this average limper has a limping range of 30% (It could easily be higher). 1.25% of all hands are AA in this spot. Given he raises AA 1/3 times, we can now reduce his limping combos of AA to 1.25*(2/3)= 0.83% of hands. He is limping 30% of hands.

Accordingly AA comprises 2.8% of his limping range. i.e. He will only have AA 1 in 35 times he limps.
It seems like he has it a lot more because you don't pay attention to all the times he limp/calls or limp/folds. You remember the times he limp/re-raises which are the times he has AA nearly always.

Assigning equal limping ranges to V1 and utg+1, the limpers will have AA 5.6% of time and the raiser will 6.25%; Somebody will have AA a combined 11.85% of time. Thats assuming BTN only Iso's 20% which is probably overly conservative given the description. Running into AA doesn't happen enough to persuade us to flat pf.

Yes, we played at same venues and I witness the same things. We don't make the same inferences.

there are 3 limpers (as well as BB) also dont think most people raise AAxx with someone raising 80% behind them 1/3 of the time.

Anyway this has been discussed enough, call me if you wanna talk more about it.