Me too let's do this. Welcome Greg

Quick update - 200nl is fun and I'm pretty comfortable there as long as I stick to 6 tables or less. My natural style is apparently less redline focused than the Detox protocols, but this feels better for the games I'm in. I'm certainly not shying away from bluff opportunities but could probably call more river bets. Not sure, but not really worried about it right now. I'll dive deeper into "redline problems" if they accompany winrate problems.

Some hands:

JJ
I wanted to fold flop but it felt weak and "maybe villain doesn't fire turn" which is just bleh logic and bad. Turns out that GTOWizard mostly folds flop vs this size. Gotta trust my feels more.

ATo
This has been a recurring mistake, I don’t recognize a player name from United States and then try to play all sorts of extra hands vs them even when I don’t have any specific reads. I can expand my range once I have a feel for the player, but until then gotta allow the value to come from playing my normal ranges. As played, what do we prefer on turn b33-50/f to shove or x/c,x/decide|x/x,b33-67?

QJo
Feel like JxTc is a better flop call but is still a fold. What the hell is my continuing range here? Even though the three players behind are unlikely to have strong made hands there are heaps of draws on a super dynamic board and I’ll be OOP to everyone. Playing bomb pots from the early positions is really tough with both marginal hands and strong value/strong draws. It’s probably fine to muck a lot of stuff that could continue bc of the positional disadvantage.

Q6s
Lost my mind vs fish.

54s
I have NO idea what villain’s range is. Flop feels like K9-A9 and TT-JJ for value but what are bluffs? Are players stabbing 75% into 5 players with JT/QJ? Maybe it’s good.

Overall

Results: +$3821
Hands: 37,010
CFP Contract: 6.2% finished

Glad to hear you're doing well at 200nl booby! Keep it up man

So I will preface my comments by saying I haven't played above 50nl on WPN, so maybe take a grain of salt or two with these:

h1: I imagine that's a continue with a club/mostly fold without spot, but in practice I would guess you could just pure fold flop when random player bets that close to full pot

h2: I don't think turn can be anything other than a pure check. If your range is as wide as you 3betting ATo (especially at full freq), then I would think you want to be checking flop a lot to begin with, but particularly with this hand. Villain's range is supposed to be a good bit tighter than yours probably is, and they have a lot of AK/AQ/88, and a little bit of AA/22 on this board (maybe random USA player pure 4bets AA, but he might overcall 22 also so it doesn't matter imo), and those nutted hands make up a relatively larger portion of their range than they do yours. If it checks through then could maybe go for 33% otr, I wouldn't go bigger than that since you're mostly trying to target those Qx club/diamond hands and the weakest Ax. As played that's just a fold though, you're not very high up in your range

h3: I honestly don't understand bomb pots much at all, but I think there could be a lot of value in learning how to play them well. Think it would be pretty much impossible to solve for flop betting ranges though, so you would have to go old school there lol. Probably just call off two pair or better and your highest equity draws imo. Think you make a good point about being significantly tighter in earlier positions, I would save most of the aggression for when it checks around to you in LP, and be pretty tight with calldowns unless you know villain is liable to be aggressive in these kind of spots

h4: No real thoughts on this one obv, but every good pgc hh post has a punt lol

h5: Seems fine to me, I would not be calling that river jam either. There could definitely be some club bluffs if villain is doing some stabbing otf with some broadway and Ax clubs (which I think they should be fwiw, anything with solid backdoors seems like a good flop lead candidate ), but I don't expect a lot of players to blast off like that very much without having it. As you say, it's super hard to range people, which I think might result in the population being a bit more tight than they should be

H1 - Yeah, if they cbet that big they simply earned the pot for risking so much, fold and move on.
H2 - After deviating one pip looser for my 3bet all the wheels fall off and I lose a stack, classic tale. Agree that it's a 2-street hand and I like flop/river more than turn/river but if it was vs a player I have history w/ I like turn/river to work some Ax into my flop checks.
H3 - They are super interesting and it's VERY easy to make a mistake. While learning I've tried to make my #1 rule "don't be the first one to bet unless you feel REALLY strongly about it" which seems pretty vague when I write it out but has meaning to me that's pretty strong internally. Position is so huge, let's call it having the high ground in battle terms cause you can see more, it's harder to reach you, and you have more overall control. In a normal hand where everyone chose their ranges to the flop, the high ground is your standard 15-20ft hill out in a field which is a pretty strong advantage, no complaints. But in bomb pots having position is like if your enemy is a bunch of orc foot soldiers attacking Helms Deep and you charge down a cliff with Gandalf the White and 10,000 Rohirrim warriors on horseback.

H4 - Lol I'll try to remember that
H5 - I might be able to jam turn, there's just no incentive for strong hands to bet this big on the flop and take the play away from the weaker players. I think it's safe to assume that facing that flop sizing nobody cares about defending their 2x/3x, maybe even weak 9x. But I'm still unsure of what regs are willing to do in bomb pots. Really glad I posted this one, bc thinking about it more I wish I jammed turn to at least test the read. I'll never figure out bomb pots if I don't test my assumptions so if I'm going to play these tables I have to be willing to get in the mud.

Thanks for the responses. Talking hands is basically my favorite thing to do ever.

Sure thing man, and same here. If you ever want to talk hands more frequently, feel free to PM me for my discord

The "data" based coaching presenting certain action leading to a certain outcome simplifications are something I would consider valuable / relevant to players who dont have a certain poker database in their heads , as example nl50 - nl100 players who have played less than 0.5 million hands of poker life time .


---

To these players many things are being better simplified as black and white because the confidence of their actions is low anyways .

Giving confidence / absolute answers to situations that frequently occur in poker can be helpful to players who dont have any clue on how to form a thought-process in these situations . In other words who dont have any confidence.

Therefore a given "fold when its like this , call when its like that , dont hand read" might be sounding attractive if it indeed averages working as supposed to be , but inevitably it raises the question of the motives of the person who created these kinds of all knowing rules and for how far in the game we can take these rules? Nl100? Nl200? Nl400? Nl1000 Nl2000?

What point is the point when the argument you are just over-thinking is not valid enough and how drastic is the change?

Have to ask the Guru / have to ask the sheep's?

nl100 , nl200 , nl400 sheeps no longer trust what guru said but have to start thinking again ?

But its all Data......

----

Strong top player in past , likely strong player in future , get off from that coaching and pay nothing . Trust yourself . Is there anything more reasonable to say?

I love this take and really like how you frame it bc I think you're spot on, this approach wasn't designed for someone with my experiences. There will be those who join up and LOVE the way the protocols make the game programmatic bc their natural poker thought process is sloppy/ineffective. But I believe the way I think thru the game is quite strong and my biggest asset as a player, so it sucks that the team I'm paying rent to of 50-60% profits only "accepts" me if I ignore it, which is lame. However, for now I am still aligned with what I said in the "screw protocols" post, that I'm not quite ready to start making contract moves or having those types of conversations with the coaches bc it still feels like there's time for things to evolve in a more fulfilling direction. I'll be sure to report here on any developments.

The contract has a clause in place where if you stop paying for the team then you owe them $20k for every 100k of the 600k total hands that you don't play, for a max of $120k if you bounced immediately. I imagine this is to protect them from a player coming in, learning the protocols/data and then using them to solo profit without any compensation for team Detox. Clearly that's not what it would be in my case, so maybe a conversation could happen regarding my contract, but I'd have to weigh the risks/chances of burning bridges - I REALLY don't want to burn any more poker bridges and was hoping I got all that out of my system as a 20yr old. *prays* / *shrugs*

hey, big fan, glad you are blogging!

in my opinion, dont even think about canceling the contract. take the best of the situation you brought yourself in, and be an adult by standing up to your own decisions and consequences. it takes discipline (probably what you were lacking before?). games nowadays are heavily GTO based, so it will only help you to get this data (havent fully read the thread, but i guess its gto material?) into your head, 600k hands is nothing if you grind religiously. your natural poker talent is unquestioned, and you can still use it for exploitative deviations.
just my 2cents, not sure how worthy they are. all the best

I would imagine I'm one of the guys that been around the longest in the CFP/staking industry with my 10~ ish years. Also being friendly with multiple of the leaders in that industry. These contracts sounds absolutely garbage.

That the team recieves a bigger cut than the player or that you should pay $20k for every 100k hands you don't play is outrageous. You started at nl50? And now play nl200. So you are supposed to pay 400 buyins on your initial stake?

It makes literally no sense how rough these contracts are to compared to bitb who undoubtedly are the industry leaders at this point in time.

A ten years contract. Sounds good at the end you will gain a lot of experience etc.
Arent you playing omaha instead of holdem?

in!

What is Bitb?

Yeah fully agree. The other thing that people ignore is how these contracts are almost entirely unenforceable (they are more for show than anything else).

100% agree with Ponty. These contracts are in no way enforceable.

Reading this thread does nothing but reinforce my beliefs that by far the two biggest poker skills are game selection and emotional/mental/lifestyle stability.

The strategies are heavily based on data which are considered to be "exploitative strategies" because the strategies are built on opponents leaks and tendencies proven from mass data analysis. I think that is the point "Killujeppo" (sorry if I misspell) is trying to make actually. Untill an X-stake this strategies seem to perform really well but I think, and I could be wrong here, is that it has a certain limit. Although on certain us sites like ignition that limit seems to be quite high xd. Also with OP's past (in terms of having success in a poker before in an era where you couldn't just run a script in PIO and study a solid fundamental strategy) I think OP proved himself to be able to play street poker and adjust fast so in combination with some self-study (like solver work) could be more effective for the long run.

-----

In general I find stables/cfp's an interesting topic in poker. In one part poker is business so it"s not more than normal and on the other hand you could give almost anyone who played 300k hands or whatever a black&white proven-to-be-winning strategy (obviously it's not as simple as in practice because still weird/complicated spots will occur) and as a result of that a significant % of the poker economy end up in the hands of cfp owners with outrageous contracts who don't care about the development of a player but only about short term money. I'm not saying that is the case at detox, I'm not familliar with them other that I know the strats are data-related.

I currently play 100/200NL (mention it because it's probably the most common stake for CFP recruits) on a softer site with 1. High rake 2. Fish 3. Weak regs, Prior played and climbed stakes on stars zoompools but regulations got me handcuffed. And my drive to keep studying is steadily decreasing. And now I understand more why people tend to join a black/white strategy cfp (And obviously overall a cfp has it's benefits).

I have no doubt most of the stuff will work and increase winrate of many players up to nl600 (if the db studies and results are being what they are supposed to be).

Deal sounds brutal though

point I wanted to make is knowing answers without being able to really answer the questions is always like asking for trouble because over time this game evolves and you gonna need a new "cheat sheet" and feel kind of lost with exploitative plays that are not working for good

if not being into learning theory and wanting results fast then maybe its good .. but again if deal is that bad .. is it really worth it

Man, this has to be one of the most insightful texts I ever read here in this forum. Really, I hope I can take all the wisdom you just delivered here and apply it to my own struggles.

About the CFP discussion, my 2c. It´s unfair to you and to them for you to continue playing under the contract if you have the feelings you have regarding the way they want you to approach the game. I´m sure Poker Detox, Nick Howard and everyone else there are serious and reasonable people that would understand your problem and reach a not so bad break up for you both.

If I understood correctly the situation, it seems they didn´t exactly understand what it would be to hire someone with your experience. And you misjudged how it would be to play following a rigid system with not much space to creativity. My view of the way their system works is that it turns losers or breakeven players into winners, and I even remember one stream years ago where Nick was seeking actual micro losers.

So, just be honest with them, bring the discussion and I´m sure good things will happen.

Cheers!

Did you accidentally sit down at 200 full ring?

Hey alwayscall yeah that's part of why I'm posting at all I want to hear ppl's 2cents

Interesting way to frame it with the 400bi on initial stake thing, that does sound insane. I think what they're saying is that the average value of the information they're providing is $0.20/hand for your next 600k hands which also sounds silly high, bc the claim is that it's $0.20 EXTRA per hand or 10bb/100 at 200nl (I think?).

Can you share any info on the bitb contracts? Curious how they could arrange it so differently while still protecting themselves from bad actors.

Nah NL. I want to give the Cadillac of poker another shot

Welcome

Oh why do you say they are unenforceable?

Yes and sadly no Ignition for me in NY and I think the protocols are basically Ignition-specific cheat codes that massively drop in effectiveness as you play in known pools or tougher sites.

Well put. When I applied to Detox I had no reason to think that we'd be doing anything different than that, just alongside many others and growing thru the sharing/collaboration aspect. I wonder if there are CFPs that don't take such a rigid protocol-based approach to the game.

One of the reasons I chose Detox was bc of Nick Howard's perspective and approach to mental game, which I'm still super aligned with. He emphasizes the mental/emotional/character development of players. But playing a strongly protocol/data-based strategy without reaching for the core layer insights of the game will 100% stunt your longterm growth as a player. So I do believe he cares as much as he can about the development of his players, but when the strategy is protocols there's an overall lower ceiling on what that means. Idk hard to describe for me right now.

I got that term "core layer insights" from a recent OBEX podcast with Wey Xie. I don't know much about him, but this interview really impressed me and I think him and I would have a lot to talk about poker-wise.

(can't get the YouTube link to work)

Why do you think your drive to study is decreasing? And is that an entirely bad thing? Your mind could be telling you "you're good for a bit, just play."

Ty so much! Please post if you have any further ideas on this topic or if you try anything out on your own that works/doesn't work. I'm repeating myself from elsewhere but this is THE PURSUIT when it comes to mindset work, and I'm looking forward to the day when I can post here describing the steps I took to once again live from that pure confident place of endless self-belief.

Thx for this relaxed take, and I think you're absolutely right. I'm about ready to start a conversation with them on this bc, particularly after listening to the Wey Xie podcast, I now feel I have the correct language to use so that I don't just sound like some Karen making complaints.

Thank you everyone who has commented on this topic. You've helped me immeasurably with feeling less hopeless, and also more confident in what I'm thinking regarding the terms of this contract and the place I'm at in my poker journey

Hey I’d just a heads up I know this guy personally, essentially played like 10k hands at High stakes being full backed before being dropped by the backer. I knew him cause he was the mental game coach for my friends stable but got kicked from that too after he was audibly screaming while grinding 200nl in our grind house. Told me a year ago was gonna get back into playing to reach high stakes but every time I asked him how it was going he ignored the messages and now seems to just pursue coaching full time. Those who can’t do teach, and those who can’t teach teach gym. Also as far as I know nick Howard hardly does **** for detox these days and the success the stable had over the last few years as far as I can tell is probably largely based on the impressive data analysis work his brother Patrick did. Patrick opened his own program “möbius” a few months ago

Well I only wanna talk poker w/ him if it's free anyway
If you end up listening to the pod and can shed light on any specific incongruencies I'd appreciate the assist w/ my discernment meter. Although I suppose it's reasonable that someone could have strong, useful ideas and not couple them with personal integrity. You prob could've described me in that way for most of my adult life tbh. Fascinating that someone would go on a public pod and egregiously misrepresent themselves.

Oh I actually didn’t listen to any of that pod hahaha, I’ve talked to him plenty irl so don’t feel inclined to as prob won’t learn much new about him or his thoughts. his knowledge ontheoretical aspects of the game might be quite strong. He might be a good coach too i really have no idea I just would prefer to learn from players who made success through grinding poker and not grinding coaching

Totals
Hands: 47,460
Results: +$5470
Contract: 7.9% complete

Somehow my HM is off by ~$620. Maybe this is an ACR frequent disconnection thing? Pretty big diff but whatever.



I'm trying to decide whether to stick it out thru reaching D3 or pull the plug now and start on my own. Seeing the PLO lobby the other day made this decision feel a bit more urgent than it has been...



If I went out on my own today I could scrounge up around a $5k bankroll, which feels low. If I stick with Detox thru D3 and make D4 I'll have won ~$23500 with my share being ~$11k. This seems like a much better place to begin from but just bc it feels safer and looks safer on paper doesn't mean it's the best choice. Sometimes you gotta cut the rope, especially when it's uncomfortable, but I can't tell if this is one of those moments or whether I should go with the plan to hit D3 and start with the 10k+ solo bankroll. Another upside to that plan is I wouldn't have to drop stakes/lose momentum, but I'm not sure how strong that argument is. While on contract I can't play PLO and I can't play MTTs, two game types which tend to expand the utility and growth potential of shorter bankrolls. At $5000 I could play 50s and sell for 100s+ while taking some halfstack PLO shots with short stop losses to try and pop off. $5k can become $10k in just a day even without MTTs being involved. Lots to consider, but for now let's talk some hands.

#1
Lucky me, I think QJdd should check flop and play turns though, way better to keep all hands in than to "push equity" (idt we're pushing anything). If QJ acted first or second do we like lead for 10% or bigger? Feels like 10.

#2
Poker is very much alive

#3
Rep that **** bro.

#4
Ambitiously tryharding.

#5
Turn is biggest mistake for sure, should just b50-67 and call shove but was running out of time so reverted to the PLO thing where you bet exactly half of the shortstack in case they shove so I can re-iso WHICH IS ACTUALLY AWFUL IN THIS EXACT SPOT so I owned myself.

#6
If villain bluffs all hands that lose to AQ, can I call or is this card simply too good for IP?

#7
Villain's 3b range in this spot w/ a limper and vs my size polarizes their range a ton, and they wouldn't go this small w/ A5s so I need to snapfold pre. Other regs might be a bit wider but would still mostly flat their mergey hands which normally 3b so they don't lose the limper/weaker player.

to sum it up you had 5k on you made it to 15k
your goal is to make a million

seems like wach out of line goals etc.
what about beeing break even player at holdem 1k
there arent any fish to beat at 1-2k

dont think there is anything more possible
good luck though