I'd fold J8s if there was several limpers already. Unopened I'd take it all day.

Yeah 100% can't disagree with any of that!

Sounds pretty bang on Mike. I got into a spot like this again tonight. 67s OTB after a few limpers. Just limped behind tonight because there was a zero % chance it was going any less than 3-4 handed.

Yeah I mean ofc a lot of the stoic philosophy can still be applied today. I have a book called "The Daily Stoic" which basically runs over chit from Seneca, Marcus, Epictetus, etc and the lessons they taught and how they can be applied to modern life. Ofc there's no comparing life today to back then but I think in general we could all be a little more Stoic.

Thanks for stopping by!

MMmm still think the iso should be table dependent - but in general isoing over 1-2 limpers. 2-3, not so much.

Yeah exactly man. Like my net worth is so low as it is anyway that I may as well rip it AI while I don't have any responsibilities. As you say, we either go busto (stupidly unlikely) or go to the mooooooooooon!

Daily Update - Sunday 22/10

Hours Played: 6.5
Profit: $671

Today's session basically reiterates how bad the casino is. Sunday evening, two tables running when I rock up at like 6:30pm. The table I'm on becomes 4 handed pretty quickly and we're all complaining because there's only 3 seats on the other table so we can't merge. Still paying 10% rake @ $15 cap 4 handed. Fed up, we decided we weren't going to be destroyed by the rake 4 handed and we all just open folded our hands and let the BB get a walk for a few orbits before another player joined us. After a bit, we decided to change the game to 5/5 which has a red chip rake structure. So still 10% capped at $15 but they can only take increments of $5 - meaning if the pot is <$50 they can't take any rake.

Overall I got fairly lucky tonight and made some hands. Didn't play for that long and don't have any real hands of note. Very annoying that there's literally only 1 poker table running in my city on a Sunday night. Makes it tough. It's usually pretty slow on a Sunday but has never been this bad!

Anyway, game became less than amazing so I decided to pack it in, head to the gym, and have an early night. It's only 2am now - tomorrow's my weekend and I have no plans, which is a great feeling. Will probably sleep in, find somewhere for breakfast, read a book, maybe do some writing. I need to sort out my bitcoin wallet before Wednesday's fork too so might spend some time sussing out that.

Tonight we also pass the $15k profit to date since the start of this thread milestone. Another 8 hours til we hit the 500 hour mark at which point we'll be doing a fairly comprehensive recap.

Results & Graph: onedrive.live.com/view.aspx?resid=C4723C7C8876B842!334

Don't know if it's me only, but there's a problem with your spreadsheet. It says it's been moved or deleted

Edit, Whoops!

https://1drv.ms/x/s!AkK4doh8PHLEgk6pBpFJrgcokPKM

good results & volume, but keep pushing to get better. Looking forward to some more hands.

I just read this thread for the first time. It's awesome! Rooting for you man, your attitude is outstanding. A+++++++++++

<3

Glad you enjoyed the read mate! I appreciate the kind words.

I'd be interesting to see what everyone else thinks, but methinks overlimping several limpers with J8s on the Button is >>> completing J7s after several limpers in the SB. Better hand + position outweight the slightly better immediate odds you're getting preflop (which don't really matter a heckuva lot in NL where IO/RIO is much more important).

Gimo;doothersdisagree?G

Meh, it seems fairly close anyway. I don't hate the notion of limping J8s OTB after limpers. You still open yourself to RIO tho when playing it. In general I don't really play an overlimp strat too much in LP because I'd rather fold a lot pre and iso a lot. But hands like QJo and KTo n sht on a passive table I think are fairly good overlimps. I'd rather pick something like J9s or T8s to overlimp with than J8s.

What are people's overlimping in LP strats in general? I don't do a lot of if because I think to really benefit from it you need to be willing to go ham with aggression post and from experience in mw limped pots, I've not done well. I guess being IP allows you to realise equity better and you get to close action too so maybe overlimping LP with a wider range is something for me to think about?

All you have to do is start tracking every hand you play from the SB that is fairly questionable (and I include J7s in there). Do that for a few 100 hours and make your decision whether or not to tighten up from the SB. My opinion is that almost everyone plays too many hands from the SB...including J7s.

The whole "Im getting 8:1" argument is complete hogwash. If you dont play it from UTG, youre going to find it hard to convince me to play it from the SB. You're in even worse position. The biggest differences are its costing you $3 instead of $5 (not much of a difference) and you're pretty sure you're not going to have to call a raise, but you're still going to be in lousy position with a garbage hand.

You can bet that's not a recipe for winning.

GG doesn't play AJ from UTG. Does this mean he can't complete it in the SB? :P

GG doesnt play many hands from anywhere. Im not sure hes the best example to use for this comparison.

There are some aggro tables that I would fold AJ UTG, but play it from the SB, but Im more likely to raise it from the SB than to limp it.

Regarding the small suited connectors on whether to ISO or not.

3 factors helpful to look for are:

1. Frequent strength (how often we flop a strong hand with our hole cards)
2. Fold equity (how often we expect to get folds pre/postflop)
3. Position

If you are constantly trying to ISO and constantly get 4+ players to the flop your ISO has failed and you are bloating the pot with a marginal hand most of the time unless your hand is so strong on the frequent strength factor it doesn't matter- but we are talking about opening a wider ISO range here profitably!

Regarding J8s/J7s topics I'll give some examples of when it's good to ISO and bad to ISO J8s on the BTN

Good: one late position limper who will fold frequently to our preflop raise and/or cbet and the blinds are very likely to fold preflop.

Bad: 5 limpers including one UTG limper who you have never seen limp before and usually plays a LAG style plus players in the blinds who frequently 3bet vs opens and ISO's.

And lastly J7s and small blind completion. In general my thought process is that your pot equity goes down faster than your pots odds go up vs multiple limpers. I'd be more inclined to complete vs one late limper with a very passive/ weak player in the BB than against the whole table limping for RFI reasons. Got to be honest here though SB completion is probably one of the weakest parts of my game and it's hard to find good information on it so would love to hear others thoughts! I complete/raise around 20% ATM






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wat. I don't mean to be a dick, but this whole post is nonsense. A few hundred hours to figure out optimal live sb strategy? You prob play sb like 100 times in this sample size. No where near enough to give a reliable conclusion.

Arguing that it's 'only and extra 3 instead of 5' is also totally mental. That's 40% less than a limp which is extremely significant. J7s is a good hand, don't even get me started on J8s - extreme nuts

Actually curious if you feel the same about ''i'm getting 8:1'' argument being hogwash for Big blind defends also because if you're not working out defending ranges off pot odds and actual equity realised(won't be 100% oop) then how on earth are you constructing defending ranges...

I like MS posts and thread (generally), but I'm firmly going with BBB on this one, that was my exact reaction when I read the MS post above.

Haven't followed the whole "completing from SB" discussion, but for me it depends on:

The players who have already limped into the pot (ie are they fish?)
The post flop aggression of the big blind
My post flop edge (over the players already in)

there is a logic here...as a rule, in any environment I want to play loads of hands with fish in them. Fish make mistakes post flop all the live long day which makes spots which are totally unprofitable against regs, easily profitable against fish. Limping is the work of fish (mostly), so w/o an aggressive reg behind, I'm wanting in the pot and a cheap completion to see a cheap flop in a hand with fish in it is basically my Nirvana. I'm going way wider than J7s and I couldn't give a monkeys about position and/or pot odds, i just want in a fishy pot with a speculative hand. I also know where the fold button is and i don't often bluff fish, so it's not like there are going to be any hards choices once i'm in the pot.

I do this all day long at 50nlz (where there are tons of easily identifiable limping fish) so i would assume it would be equally profitable in the live environment?????

with the usual, I'm not a live player caveat (and also, I'm not interested in p1ssing contest or being a dick either...just sharing my view)

edit, just checked (since someone mentioned tracking) using the above strat I am +30bb/100 for SB completes in 172 spots over the last 22K hands (10nlz, 25nlz, 50nlz). Typically that is everything that I consider playable and don't want to ISO raise with (roughly KTo to 35o...OMC rules )

I just love it when someone says something is nonsense when theyve never done it. Obviously tracking SB completion for a couple 100 hours isnt going to going to solve the meaning of life. Its not going to give you a concrete answer, but I can guarantee you....because Ive done it...that its going to be eye opening. Try it. You might actually learn something. I didnt say it would give you "optimal live SB strategy".

I am constantly mentioning things like this that I do that have made me a better player and Im constantly told that that these things wont work and most of the time people are just too damned lazy to actually do it so they just trash it.

There are a variety of things that you can see right away to get a quick read on someones game. One of them is completing the SB too much. If you are playing J7s from the SB, there is no doubt in my mind that you are bleeding chips from the SB overall, but if you are too lazy to track your SB profit/loss you will never know that.

The biggest difference in this case is that I'm just far too often going to face a raise if I limp UTG (my game typically 2/3rds of pots are raised preflop), and I hate raising this hand that early, so folding it UTG is fine. But I'll probably play it in the SB if it hasn't been raised simply because I know I'm extremely likely to see a cheap flop at this point (even if I just complete to ~nutmine).

I've changed my thinking towards suited connectors in LP as my table has evolved. At one time, I thought overlimping these types of hands and getting into cheap multiway limped pots was the nuts (and still is if the limpers are bad). But at tables where the limpers have a clue, I'm not longer sold on these hands as much; I still think overlimping them on the Button is likely profitable, but not for as nearly as much, and they probably play better in HU in a lot of cases.


Yeah, I'd agree with also. It's meaningless noise.


This is also my general thoughts as well, although even in a fish filled environment I'm still not looking to play RIO odds like 3 gappers. If there's fishes in the hand I'm completing stuff in the SB / overlimping the Button with hands like 75o / etc. all-day. If the limpers have a clue, I'm probably just folding these hands in the SB (OOP), and maybe playing my Button.

GitdependsG

This is key. When I say "fish" I mean clueless. As a zoomer, I have 5 or 6 fish indicators (not including hud stats), of which I use any two to classify. eg A short stacker limps = instant clueless fish classification. Or single tabler does a spaz 3bet size pre = instant clueless fish classification. It won't always be correct of course - it doesn't need to be, but it will right 90% of the time, which is waaaayyyy more than enough.

This is straight up Bayes Theorem from The Mathematics of Poker by the way.

I would of thought these sorts of players would be even easier to spot in a live environment, but I don't play live so I will happily defer to those that do.

I can side with the live players that we should be defending SB tight in general for the simple fact that since it'll be 5-6 handed on the flop, there's a decent chance we don't get to see turn and river and can't properly defend our equity throughout the hand.

But I also side with the online guys that it's probably criminal to not defend as wide as J7s. Yeah sure fold 75o even after 4 limpers but J7s, I can't do it.

Just read through all of this. Really good thread Meale. I'll be following and I wish you all the best!

Cool man, good to have you here.

Personal Development - 4 New Habits!

So on Tuesday I found myself reading The Power of Focus at the library. Super cool read from the small amount of it I managed to get through. A lot of what I read dealt with habits and how we can benefit by changing our habits. It forced me to look at my own life and look at what bad habits I have and how I can change them. So as of next week (Friday onwards), I'll be looking to implement 4 new habits in my life so as to become a better version of myself.

Once I've nailed these 4 habits and they become ingrained in my life, I'll seek to add a few more. The book told me it may take 3 weeks or so before these habits become automatic.

1. {Health} Improve quality of sleep - So I've been complaining a bit lately about not sleeping particularly well. One of the habits I have currently is getting into bed, sticking my headphones on, and listening to a podcast. While I really enjoy doing this, it causes me to get fragmented sleep - often times I'll wake up hours later with some random YouTube video playing and my headphones still in. Podcasts are great, but bed is for sleeping so I'm going to cut out any listening to podcasts or music or anything when I go to bed in future. Caffeine is another big one here. If I drink more than 1 cup of coffee, particularly late at night, I will quite often get zero hours of sleep. I'm a fairly light sleeper as it is and caffeine has a pretty potent effect on me. So I'll be ensuring I drink max 1 cup of coffee per day. I also currently set 2-3 alarms in the morning. Usually 30 minutes apart enabling me to "sleep in". I learnt that the most important sleep is the last couple hours of REM sleep where the most important bodily functions happen. By setting 2-3 alarms, I effectively rob myself of a good hour of high quality sleep. In future, just 1 alarm will do.

2. {Education} Read more - Super easy one. 30 minutes per night before bed every night. The key for me is consistency. I can easily binge read for an entire day but I'll still get more reading done overall if I get 30 minutes in each night for a total of 3.5 hours a week. I'd also like to spend more time in the library on my day(s) off.

3. {Health} Increased focus on fitness - Minimum 1 hour per day in the gym. We will also want to spend a good chunk of this time stretching - sitting in a card room all day is terrible for your hammies and back. By stretching out, I'll be more limber in general, will get better results on leg day, and will help with running. Next, start running! I want to run 30 minutes a day every day that I'm at the gym. I'm not a fan of running on a treadmill so I'll probably just run around the park/surrounding few blocks of my gym/apartment. Part of the idea is to get out and closer to nature/in the sun. Hoping running will increase my cardiovascular fitness and burn a few calories too, reducing my overall body fat percentage.

4. {Health} 20 Minutes of sun every day - I've felt like I'm extra pasty lately. Working the nocturnal schedule makes getting vitamin D nearly impossible. My mum has health complications from a severe vitamin D deficiency and so I can appreciate the importance of getting outside and getting a few rays each day. A bit of a tan would go a long way too! We have a real nice pool area on the level above mine in my building, so plan is to just hang out there for 20 minutes each day when I get up before getting started with the day.

========================

I have plenty more habits I could introduce immediately, but I think for the time being 4 will be plenty to focus on.

Just read 30mins in the sun a day - smash 2 goals in 1