I don't know how we can say for definite that Phil Ivey got to the top by hard work alone.

We can't say for sure, without knowing what his genetic makeup is vs the rest of the poker world. But we do know that he has put in an extreme amount of hard work. And even if he didn't have something in him genetically that set him apart from others, he would still be in the top tier of players.

This appears to be the sticking point.

Will reply later to the mirrions of posts, fun discussion for sure.
I think bcuzitsos last point meant (or I at least see it that way) if Phil Ivey wasn't a genius genetically he still would be in the top tier for the amount of work and effort he put into getting where he is. Bringing NASA and Stephen hawking into the equation is totally pointless as former has simple requirements that cannot be met by the average joe (eye sight, monster fitness, way above average intellect) and Stephen hawking is in fact a gifted physics professor and astronomer- nobody ever argued that. However, ANYbody wanting to run a marathon (without having asthma or a disability of some sort) can run a marathon. Yet most ppl think the dudes finishing it are all Ethiopians that have it in their genes.
I think that is a much better comparison to poker as I think it requires the same amount of work to get it done. Obv guys like Ike will still (possibly) be winners vs you even at high stakes but that doesn't mean you won't be beating high stakes and over time you should be able to figure out Ike s game as well. All your thought process basically does is set limits for urself that are convenient in case you do run into a wall.

Yo blakk can you drop me a pm on that blog where ur coaching prices are mentioned? tyvm

My2+2SN.blogspot.com

Okay imagine I sat an 70 IQ person down and somehow persuaded him that he had to play poker and keep moving up stakes once he beat the one below, and just gave him the link to 2+2 and let him take it from there (ie didn't give special coaching etc unless he figured it out himself)

I struggle to imagine him ever beating 200nl+, maybe I'm wrong but most people I've met with 80< IQ's have major thought process flaws in every single argument they make, and struggle to see those flaws even when they are pointed out to them. (logical argument and reasoning is the best real life skill that I've seen transfer to poker in people personally)

The way I see it is that everyone has a ceiling, like the 80 IQ is obviously an extreme example, but all of us have ceilings for reasons including IQ and obviously tons of other factors which we can't change. We obviously hit mini ceilings that with work and effort we can overcome, but I would definitely hypothesize that their is a point we can't get past for each of us.

For the Ethiopian one, sure anyone can run a marathon, but not everyone can run a marathon under 2h 30, which is more relevant. And if we were to play Ike, maybe we figure out some of his game, but by the time we've done that he's already worked out how we're thinking and adjusted to counteract the adjustments he predicts we'll make or w/e.

The ceilings we have to encounter in life are purely ones which are caused by stuff beyond our control. I would however think that anybody can get their IQ as you see it to a point higher than their initial test would suggest. Put anybody remotely average in a shaolin monks' temple and he ll come out a Kung fu master after a bunch of years.

Well worth the investment!

As for lol putting your guy on 2+2 and looking whether he ll beat nl200: bad example agains because most of the advice you get on these forums is advice that only works in stakes lower than that. So by putting your test object guy on here you automatically cap his expectation or at least delay it

As in put him on 2+2 and let him find his own way from there, basically was saying let him start poker as most people do without special help etc.
It's kind of a null argument as it's just so impossible to ever tell, but I'm just definitely in the school of thought that not everyone can just 'put more effort in' and eventually beat nosebleeds.

The IQ point was just because it's the easiest way to specify a lower intelligence person, no point getting into the debate of pro's and cons of the IQ test haha. I also am definitely of the view that intelligence is the only or major inherited factor that determines your poker playing potential, as there are definitely a lot of other things that come into play.
A lot of the stuff I'm thinking of is maybe not inherited, but due to the way you were brought up/ relationships you formed at younger ages etc. Nevertheless, once you are older it has come together to become such a big part of someones personality/mindset that it's almost impossible to alter or even notice, and stuff like that also would effect your poker potential. (I'm talking like ability to listen to take on board others opinions, recognise you're own weakness, leave ego behind etc)

Blakk, you get your living situation sorted? This guy has a room available in Sliema...
http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/92...1/index42.html

i think a massive thing people are ignoring is simple want/desire, nobody gets to the top unless theres motivation behind it.

lots of ppl think they want to get to the top but its not actually what they want, i bet phil ivey never spent much time telling ppl he wanted to get to the top, he just did it. the same way durrrr said fu to the career advisors at his university and proceeded to drop out to play full time.

its a pretty common trait behind anyone at the top of their field, they wanted to be the best so they did it, its completely different from someone saying 'i want to be the best', there on a completely different level.

i think Q6s point about intelligence is pretty accurate but it depends so much on the conditions, if u set someone with an IQ of 150 the challenge of becoming the absolute best they could be in poker starting at 2p2 they might get to reasonable stakes on intelligence alone but they have to have the drive/ambition to go further. i think passion is a better way of describing it.

Im thinking of taking a 3 day trip to Malta with 2 poker friends on sunday, just for the lols, anything you would recommend doing while we are there?/best area to stay in etc?

We have no info about Malta just wanted to get away for a few days, and the flights are fairly cheap/perfect for the days we want to go.

Gl

you said it yourself and youfaiil makes a pretty good point on that later. nothing is really impossible most people just lack the drive to do fkall about it and end up complaining/not realizing they actually can with hard work

gonna probly get a place for myself. not exactly sure a multiplayerhouse is the best idea for me at this point in time

100%. ivey gave his life to become the man he is now known for. tiger woods gave his life to get to where he is. there are tons of people we know for their accomplishments and they all have one thing in common and no it isnt a godgiven ability. its their drive to become the best and the realization that it takes tons of work to get there. you cant tell me tiger woods has a 'talent' for golf. he could just as well have become a pro tennis player or a world famous musician. he just happened to like golf at a young age and was a competitive person. thats it.

dont come to malta now. party time is basically over, its rany and cold and most places dont have internal heating so it gets pretty chilly at night. wait till end of february/march then come and love it!

glad we finally agree on smthing

as for living by urself, ive never done it and always thoguht itd be the absolute nuts however everyone ik who has done it says it sucks balls big time. pls u think the EV of living with smeone who is in a similar position is huge, you helping hicham get out of his DS for example, doing it by urself can be tough...

I think living by yourself when you involved with some high performance activity (poker) is must, it allows you to maximize environment for the work and for the rest.

I am sure blackkman did not mind helping his roommate with the advice and actual help, but I wonder how much of +EV it was actually for him, because what we see on the blog is probably only 5% of what actually was going on

Haha yea not sure what's up with that


As Lwallet puts it below, it can be quite different for each of the guys living together, and as I said, I m not sure a joint grind house is the best idea for me in this point in time. I don't exclude sth like this once I get to meaningful stakes and have some kinda stability in my life but as of right now I am yet to find 30s regs living off their poker winnings who are looking to move in and that's bout the only constellation that I can imagine being mutually beneficial - at this point in time.

Yea gotta agree with most of what you say, sadly especially the last paragraph.

While I am sure that I will HAVE to find a way to balance my life (likely sports and the occasional shtfacing night with other grinders) I think - again, at this point in time - I d be best off doing what I need to do to max my EV and not that of potential roommates.

or is it?

pretty happy with the progress of my students. did a video review for bcuzitsso a few days back and happy to see his game is improving rapidly. guy s gonna crush lockpoker midstakes cashgames real soon

my secondstudent just shipped me those graphs:

before talking to me:



and after:

One more redline boost and youll create a new geiv. Well done!
Btw, are u six maxing or is it FR?

Thats all 24 tbls of nl25 fullring

printing dat monies
sick work

thxthx

ppl hitting their 2outers isnt fun

that session looks like it was fun

also 5am... looks like u need a room mate just stay in a 'normal' routine!

are u playing cash again just for vpps/SN?