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blakkman08 - Grind up the Stakes in 2013 blakkman08 - Grind up the Stakes in 2013

01-21-2013 , 05:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Craigster1
I understand what your saying, and thats why i 4bet the K6s, had a feeling he would ship it, and obvoisly he did.
Personally i prefer to 4bet Ax due to the blocker, but i decided to do it with K6s cos of how he was playing.

K6s has almost the same blocker qualities as Axs do so i dont mind that 4bet at all but against these kind of people you can literally chose almost any holding and 4bet with it imo

He 3bet me early on and i flat KQ on the BTN,called 2 streets with flopped top2, and he check folded to 1/3 pot bet on river.

Guess thats why he went all lag on me, unless thats his standard play.

likely somebody who doesnt adapt and just goes crazy aggro as standard

Do you prefer just folding your BTNs vs this opponent with hands like K6s etc, that are too good to fold on the btn, but cant call vs 3bet.... or do you prefer still opening them and 4bet folding??

I thinks its probably better folding them myself, and just 4betting hands willing to stack off with, and flatting other hands like suited connectors and broadways.
I absolutely dont ever fold my button with ******s in the blinds with K6s. it s really hard for them to be profitably here out of position with me adjusting to ther 3bets by 4betting. unless he adjusts and starts 5betting but at 100bb stacks very few do that


Hero (BTN): $25.35
SB: $25.55
BB: $50.89
UTG: $30.96
MP: $35.22
CO: $26.13

Pre Flop: ($0.35) Hero is BTN with 7 A
3 folds, Hero raises to $0.50, 1 fold, BB raises to $1.75, Hero raises to $4.25, BB raises to $9.75, Hero raises to $25.35 all in, 1 fold

and when they do you just jam and collect dead money . this just happened against a guy with 60% resteal over 100 hands



Quote:
Originally Posted by BcuzItsSo
It is fully dependent on what sort of player you are or want to be. If you want to be a standard 12/9 reg then fold them pre. I've been that player before, and I personally don't think it is nearly as profitable as the laggrotard style that I now play (22/19). It takes a lot of adjustments in your game and sometimes you have to stick all the money in there with a crap hand. I have 5bet AI for 100BB with Q5s, because I was fairly sure that my opponent was 4betting light and there was enough $ out there to make it profitable even if he did call off with AK. It's all in what you are comfortable with. If you find that you are not comfortable putting in 1/4 your stack with K6s to fold or 5betting your entire stack because its +EV, then don't. But it's a lot of fun!!
that sounds harsher than it really needs to be but i agree with the message. many players have that idea that avoiding tough spots is best so they dont 3b light and they dont 4b bluff and they dont thinly valuebet and they dont make high varianc bluffs. these players end up suffering MUCH more variance in the long run because the short term positive EV high variance plays happen so often that they actually manifest themselves in a higher winrate pretty quickly, much quicker than the variance of the blueline that comes with massive pots only playing 12/9. so when a 12/9 goes on a massive 10 buyin downswing its likely that with that same run of cards a decent lag player will only drop 2-3 buyins and not even blink.
blakkman08 - Grind up the Stakes in 2013 Quote
01-21-2013 , 07:05 PM
so today was all about gym, shopping chilling and 25nl 6max zoom. I went through my db (dating back to december which is when i switched back from hypers to cash) and it turns out that basically the same thing is going on as last uhhh march? april? which is basically regs at 50nl not being as foldy asthey are on 25nl so my loose ranges not generating enough folds to compensate for the card disadvantage i get myself into when playing regs. that left me with two options going into today: nit it up with almost all my ranges or play 6max and i dont like being a nit so i played 6max zoom today at 4 25nltables and it went uite well. obv i m heatering like a mofo and making the most of the fact that i am an nnown to most regs so i m likely getting much more credit than i should but it was very enjoyable and i ll try that some more over the next few days before probably moving up to 50nl 6max regular tables and seeing how it goes. should be a fun week for sure

today:
blakkman08 - Grind up the Stakes in 2013 Quote
01-21-2013 , 07:19 PM
Yeah, i definitely aint a NIT at the tables, and dont play like 12/9, im use to the 3betting light/4betting light...

however, i very rarely shove over 4bets that light because at 25nl which is where ive played the most, there just aint that many people 4betting light, there are some who do, but unless i see them 4bet ALOT, then i give them credit more often than not.

Thanks for the feedback.

Nice results at 25nl there blakk
blakkman08 - Grind up the Stakes in 2013 Quote
01-21-2013 , 08:53 PM
I think 3bet 5bet 22-66 vs BTN open of 55% or more is standardish even on 25NL.
blakkman08 - Grind up the Stakes in 2013 Quote
01-21-2013 , 09:34 PM
hmmm, thats just asking for trouble.

Just because someone is opening 55% of BTNs, doesnt mean that they are 4betting light, i really cant see shoving 22-66 being profitable in the long run, even if the BTN was calling light, hes very likely to have an overpair here, or 2 overcards.

think i prefer 3bet folding them hands
blakkman08 - Grind up the Stakes in 2013 Quote
01-21-2013 , 11:24 PM
Against 55% opening range you can add in quite a bit more hands than 22-66 into your 5betting range
blakkman08 - Grind up the Stakes in 2013 Quote
01-22-2013 , 04:40 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by harrygehakt
I think 3bet 5bet 22-66 vs BTN open of 55% or more is standardish even on 25NL.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Craigster1
hmmm, thats just asking for trouble.

Just because someone is opening 55% of BTNs, doesnt mean that they are 4betting light, i really cant see shoving 22-66 being profitable in the long run, even if the BTN was calling light, hes very likely to have an overpair here, or 2 overcards.

think i prefer 3bet folding them hands
Quote:
Originally Posted by pitapita
Against 55% opening range you can add in quite a bit more hands than 22-66 into your 5betting range
i think almost all of the above statements are too general. somebody could be opening 55% of buttons but only fold vs threebets. somebody could be opening 55%+ of buttons and only 4bet. or he could be opening 55%+ of BTNs and flat some and fourbet some and get it in thinly vs us.

vs only one of those is 3b/5b massively profitable. vs one its okaaaay and vs the other any 5bet ship with nonvaluehands is a massive disaster. there s no such hing as standard imo. each situation calls for some kind of adaptation
blakkman08 - Grind up the Stakes in 2013 Quote
01-22-2013 , 05:52 AM
its obviously not -1000bb/100 but 0bb/100 we have to be better than at the point of making our decision of whether to fold or to 5betbluff...

so in your example a 5betshove actually is pretty strongly negative EV.

this proves that 3b/5b 22-66 is only good vs very very specific oponents both opening a wide range AND 4betbluffing a lot with said range which i would deffo say isnt generally the case at 25nl or even 50nl. so anybody saying 3b/5b 22-66 is std at micros, are you sure?

Last edited by blakkman08; 01-22-2013 at 05:56 AM. Reason: thx for ur first post tho <3 <3 <3
blakkman08 - Grind up the Stakes in 2013 Quote
01-22-2013 , 06:34 AM
surely its only "mathematically better" if you are ahead of his calling range?

because if we are shoving a range such as 66 and less, and his calling range is 88+ and as wide as AJs or something then we have to be losing money there, and obvously we make some money when he 4bet folds, which isnt all that frequent at these stakes, but does happen


what about the times we 3bet and he folds? or when we 3bet, and cbet and take the pot down? or 3bet, flop a set and stack him, or 3bet and tripple barrel and win a nice pot?

It just not as simple a game as saying, 3 bet 5 bet someone who is opening the BTN light, theres a lot more into making the correct decisions.

Really dont see many people 4bet folding A10 and KQ, im sure those hands are good enough to flat a 3bet (vs a manic 3 bettor, which you are claiming that your stats will now be if you 3bet so much vs him)


Also, we never said it was -EV, doing it everytime we are dealt them it is for sure.
But vs certain opponents it can be good to do
Also, my response was to the guy saying that 3bet, 5bet shipping vs a 55% BTN is the way to play these hands, which i 100% disagree with when you put it in a vacuum like that

Last edited by Craigster1; 01-22-2013 at 06:41 AM.
blakkman08 - Grind up the Stakes in 2013 Quote
01-22-2013 , 06:44 AM
Sorry Craigster, I didn't mean to keep 3betting u. I will stop it now
blakkman08 - Grind up the Stakes in 2013 Quote
01-22-2013 , 07:14 AM
Y'all need to stop worrying about being preflop warrior's, everyone knows how to play preflop anyway so it's not where you make money on the field.
blakkman08 - Grind up the Stakes in 2013 Quote
01-22-2013 , 07:15 AM
first off, rosh you are no longer welcome here since (lol how well that actually fits into this discussion) u flatted my 3bet out of the blinds me holding 44 u holding ATs and then called 3barrels on sth like a 237r To Ao runout until i get my buyin back dont you DARE chime in here again !!!!!

wrt the others:

chosen0ne you are doing the maths very wrong. every maths has to do with the situation as it is OR including every single aspect that has an expected value since the start of hand and NOT one specific line of actions in isolation

lets state the variables here: BTN opening range, BTN folding range vs 3bet, BTN 4betting range, BTN flop continuing/folding ranges, BTN flop bluffing frequencies, our EV when called etc

all you are considering here is BTN 4betfolding range which is plain wrong.

they way to do real equity calculations is to just look at the spot you are in consider all relevant variables and consider the point of the decision as being the zero spot. so folding being equal to zero EV. the question we are asking therefore is whether a fivebetjam over a 4bet considering the range he has for making tha fourbet given our information is better than folding or bettan than zero. what happened before that does not matter in this context.

as shown in the simple math a few posts above is that no, against a random opening range of 50 % and not much 4betbluffing frequency a fivebetjam is suicidal because the 4betting range already is weighted towards value hence we dont generate nearly enough folds to compensate for our equity disadvantage when we do get called on a jam.

the reason people are advocating the 3b5b line with small pocket pairs against wide btn openers is the fact that they often get into 4bbluff dynamics which they they can exploit. at micros these dynamics (unless vs very specific oponents) just dont exist. many people open btns wide but fold TONS to 3bets making the inital 3bet very profitable and likely superior to flatting a btn open OOP with hands like 22-66.

however a fourbet here oftentimes already means a stackoff range or at least a range close to it so we dont nearly get enough fold equity to even break even on the shove. consider this: a guy opens 60% of hands. fourbets mainly for value (maybe with hands like AT and KQ cuz he s aggro) flats the middling suited connected hands and doesnt bluff much. this means he folds to 75% of our 3bets already making us profit in this situation

heres a few numbers just in a vacuum on how much fold equity we need for our 3bets from the blinds to become profitable depending on our position and his opening size:

%age of folds we need to profit with our threebet when

-we are in small blind vs open size 2x, 2.5x and 3x (us then making it 8x, 9x and 10x respectively): 68.2% 73.9% 67.9%

-we in big blind with above sizings: 66,6% 72.7% 66,6%

anytime somebody folds more than those numbers in this situation we are making money. however we need to understand that anytime somebody folds this much their continuing ranges become increasingly strong and we dont generante many folds vs their fourbets.
blakkman08 - Grind up the Stakes in 2013 Quote
01-22-2013 , 07:16 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasticElephant
Y'all need to stop worrying about being preflop warrior's, everyone knows how to play preflop anyway so it's not where you make money on the field.
Postflop play is esp at micros where the leaks are. Thought I just bring my 5bet bluff range up here
blakkman08 - Grind up the Stakes in 2013 Quote
01-22-2013 , 07:19 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasticElephant
Y'all need to stop worrying about being preflop warriors
fyp.

and agreed.

however there is sth to be said about playing small PP oop in a profitable manner vs wider btn openers so i think sth can be taken from this discussion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasticElephant
everyone knows how to play preflop anyway
apparently not
Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasticElephant
so it's not where you make money on the field.
agreed.
blakkman08 - Grind up the Stakes in 2013 Quote
01-22-2013 , 07:21 AM
EDIT: Deleting my post because I hadn't done any maths and it's probably wrong ha

and yeah I just mean people play a lot closer to optimal preflop nowdays, so it's not a spot where you are going to have any huge edge vs regs whatever you do.
blakkman08 - Grind up the Stakes in 2013 Quote
01-22-2013 , 07:26 AM
to make it clear:

a threebet has three possible outcomes that all need to be put in relation and then summed up:

1. villain calls (has xEV)
2. villain folds (has yEV)
3. villain 4bets (has zEV)

actions x, y and z happen at their specific frequencies hence the cumulative EV of us threebetting in the first place looks sth like p(x)*xEV+p(y)*yEV+p(z)*zEV=EV of threebetting.

the fact that us threebetfolding has a massively negative EV may be true but its supposed to be compensated by the EV of villain folding and us collecting the dead money from his open and the blinds, knowing that when he fourbets we are up against a strong range and therefore cannot shove in hopes of collecting enough dead money. IF villain is an aggrotard obv we can and should ship the moneys because he produces enough dead money for a shove as a 5betbluff to be +EV

what we re trying to do in the first place is achieve a higher EV from our 22-66 than -100bb/100 from the big blind and -50bb/100 from the small blind we have from folding. we are unlikely to achieve a better result by flatcalling because it plays so ridiculously badly postflop oop without the initiative.

given the basic numbers we have it looks like threebetting is already the way to go no matter if our opponent is aggressive or nitty vs 3bets. it becomes bad vs passive players because they will call us with many many hands in position and we get owned that way. so against most regulars 3betting is the superior option

Last edited by blakkman08; 01-22-2013 at 07:35 AM.
blakkman08 - Grind up the Stakes in 2013 Quote
01-22-2013 , 07:34 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by PlasticElephant
EDIT: Deleting my post because I hadn't done any maths and it's probably wrong ha

and yeah I just mean people play a lot closer to optimal preflop nowdays, so it's not a spot where you are going to have any huge edge vs regs whatever you do.
obviously this is not a spot where we gain any type of huge edge but since poker is all about maximizing our EV overall we should probably still make use of this thin spot to maybe reduce our blinds lossrates by a few bb/100.

i think anybody calling here vs regs is spewing tons of money and i think anybody 3b5b here vs nits is burning money too.
blakkman08 - Grind up the Stakes in 2013 Quote
01-22-2013 , 07:53 AM
yes if you filter you holdem manager for 'did threebet'+'faced fourbet'+'folded vs fourbet' you will indeed get this ridiculous winrate but what good is it?

you need your winrate in context to know if it is good or not and that context would be to filter for 'holecards= 22-66' position being sb+bb and faced btn open.
then consider adding 'did 3bet' and compare these amng each other to figure which options may or may not be best. Saying u re only talking bout 'only when we face a 4bet' is like saying shipping 100bb UTG with AA is +ev

instead, think about ranges and likely actions and figure why 5betjamming 22 into every btn 4bet readless is worse than folding it to the open

to your other points:

i was talking about EV. you were talking about expected winrate. absoutely the same thing
also, there literally is n need for a 'decent 5b range' at zoom uNL anyways so you d be ebtter off playing practically optimal poker in every situation
blakkman08 - Grind up the Stakes in 2013 Quote
01-22-2013 , 08:40 AM
haha, Rosh

It wasnt you i was up against, was some other guy... was only playing with him for like 20mins before he dissapeared

I did see you at the tables though
blakkman08 - Grind up the Stakes in 2013 Quote
01-22-2013 , 12:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chosen0ne
i disagree, for 25nl anyway


I'm not sure having not playd 25nl for a long time, but from what I remember most regs play fairly well preflop, (as in not fishy) so it's just going to be close to zero sum after rake. They were incredibly bad postflop though, so if I were still playing 25nl or coaching it I would show people how to play well defensively and aggresively postflop. It's also a crucial skill for moving up stakes.
blakkman08 - Grind up the Stakes in 2013 Quote
01-22-2013 , 01:33 PM
My experience from 6max 50 and 100nl is that a lot of regs have terrible ranges or frequencies for 4betting and 5betting, but at FR people open way less and don't bluff so they're pretty bad too but instead of making a few big mistakes they're making a bunch of tiny mistakes.
blakkman08 - Grind up the Stakes in 2013 Quote
01-22-2013 , 01:58 PM
Obv post is much more important but I thought there was a bunch to be said about this preflop spot in particular. And if it ends up being zero sum after rake, rverytime this spot comes up we are making 1bb/hand from the big blind or 0.5bb/hand from the small blind as opposed to folding which obv is huge and does come up often enough to make an impact
blakkman08 - Grind up the Stakes in 2013 Quote
01-23-2013 , 12:55 PM
have done TONS of strat las few days (5hrs of strat today alone) so havent been grindin much but when i did i ran crazyhot a 6max zoom 25nl:

blakkman08 - Grind up the Stakes in 2013 Quote
01-23-2013 , 01:03 PM
sexy stuff sir
blakkman08 - Grind up the Stakes in 2013 Quote
01-23-2013 , 08:05 PM
Hey man!

Did you ever get the feeling that there is nothing to do on Malta? :O

All of us got sick of it after 3 months and moved back, while we had planned to be there for 6.

Maybe st. Julians is better to live in than Sliema after all ^^

Anyways, hope you get a great 2013 with poker and life Glgl!
blakkman08 - Grind up the Stakes in 2013 Quote

      
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