Which of us haven't run 14 million BB under EV in our time? I know Paisting has.

Precisely what I meant, yes! I haven't slept well lately and it's really disaster.

After somewhat good start miracle miracle suckouts started and after that not any possibilities to get profit. Sessions started with 5 buy ins down in 15 minutes and sessions was only battling to get break even after that. I got dealt kings versus aces so many times that is was something like 85% of time aces when I had kings. Everyone of that player pool are whales. Literally what I mean is that there are zero percent of players that can be put to category of players who can beat levels and go up. Everytime I look table with full of green tagged **** whales I think how miracle they hit those hands on river.

and again you run above ev, how do you have so much luck?

You're talking to guy who have posted year graphs with over 100 buy ins below ev.

i dont play 888 anymore but wanna pay less rake move stars or least try gamble it up play 10nl where rakes less on 888 the play is the exact same on 888 from 2nl to 20nl really or 25nl if count snap it doesnt really change at all between those stakes from what remember same sort of patterns gameflow.

from what remember the omaha games there are good but run randomly 10plo - 100plo i think like couple tables spread at them stakes but when there good they were real good

withdrawing from 888 a pain though as get charged fees both for deposits and withdrawals

honestly i say switch to pokerstars good liquidity big pool at micros low stakes

party was good too real good actually but not played there forages reg tables got quiet some reason, i should relook though.

but obviously if not winning play stars or party, party gives rakeback and still pay less rake than 888 so if break even your make something at least, stars i dunno how works has a 40% chest weekly challenge and upto 25% chests or something depending level i dont get how works but pretty much anywhere better than 888 mainly cause 888 poker fees for deposit withdrawal and sketchyness of leaving large amount on there, i dont trust 888 too much support poor anytime i had decent amount on i wanted to withdraw it even though stopped me being able to gamble higher often and had pay fee to do so.

i used to actually love playing on 888 though didnt realise was getting butt*ucked by the deposit withdrawals so much though if werent such issue i probably play over there a bit

but yh leave 888 also try omaha more fun

yes, the rake is really costing him money

Luckiest player I ever seen... . Must be rigged.

Difficulties with withdrawals are unlikely to ever trouble Paisting.

Paisting have you ever done a withdrawal before ?

My all possible withdraws goes to these green marked total whales hand after hand. Whole table blinking green tags on that player pool and they suck out year after year. These hands on yesterday sessions almost back to back.

888Poker Snap, Hold'em No Limit - $0.02/$0.05 - 6 players

Rfcsb13 (UTG): $4.14 (83 bb)
Coach_V (MP): $7.64 (153 bb)
kox44x (CO): $5.00 (100 bb)
champ11111 (BU): $8.54 (171 bb)
ClaptonMesh (SB): $5.06 (101 bb)
Paisting (BB): $10.42 (208 bb)

Pre-Flop: ($0.07) Hero (Paisting) is BB with A♣ K♦
3 players fold, champ11111 (BU) raises to $0.15, 1 fold, Paisting (BB) 3-bets to $10.42 (all-in), champ11111 (BU) calls $8.39 (all-in)

Flop: ($17.10) 7♠ 5♦ 3♣ (2 players, 2 all-in)

Turn: ($17.10) T♦ (2 players, 2 all-in)

River: ($17.10) 8♦ (2 players, 2 all-in)

Total pot: $17.10 (Rake: $1)

Showdown:
Paisting (BB) shows A♣ K♦ (high card, Ace)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 69%, Flop: 81%, Turn: 7%, River: 0%)

champ11111 (BU) shows T♠ A♠ (a pair of Tens)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 31%, Flop: 19%, Turn: 93%, River: 100%)

champ11111 (BU) wins $16.10

888Poker Snap, Hold'em No Limit - $0.02/$0.05 - 6 players

kox44x (UTG): $7.41 (148 bb)
Paisting (MP): $7.35 (147 bb)
luckyfish98 (CO): $3.49 (70 bb)
champ11111 (BU): $16.05 (321 bb)
crepface (SB): $9.38 (188 bb)
ClaptonMesh (BB): $5.00 (100 bb)

Pre-Flop: ($0.07) Hero (Paisting) is MP with Q♣ A♦
1 fold, Paisting (MP) raises to $7.35 (all-in), luckyfish98 (CO) calls $3.49 (all-in), 3 players fold

Flop: ($7.05) 9♥ 8♦ 8♠ (2 players, 2 all-in)

Turn: ($7.05) J♥ (2 players, 2 all-in)

River: ($7.05) 6♣ (2 players, 2 all-in)

Total pot: $7.05 (Rake: $0.41)

Showdown:
Paisting (MP) shows Q♣ A♦ (a pair of Eights)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 74%, Flop: 77%, Turn: 16%, River: 0%)

luckyfish98 (CO) shows J♦ A♣ (two pair, Jacks and Eights)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 26%, Flop: 23%, Turn: 84%, River: 100%)

luckyfish98 (CO) wins $6.64

So if you want to investigate something it's definitely not deposit or withdrawal fees.

Weekend on 888 2 days 2 session

I was playing first nl5 and got 5 all in with over 70%+ equity and lost them all to same whale. That whale then went to nl10 tables and I'm after him. How long there are even 1 person who can say this is normal variance?

888Poker Snap, Hold'em No Limit - $0.05/$0.10 - 6 players

99percentWSD (UTG): $40.09 (401 bb)
kingsavior (MP): $4.40 (44 bb)
MACS15 (CO): $11.17 (112 bb)
Paisting (BU): $22.00 (220 bb)
davidcsss (SB): $6.20 (62 bb)
dalik (BB): $10.00 (100 bb)

Pre-Flop: ($0.15) Hero (Paisting) is BTN with A♦ A♥
99percentWSD (UTG) raises to $0.22, 1 fold, MACS15 (CO) calls $0.22, Paisting (BU) 3-bets to $1.40, 1 fold, dalik (BB) 4-bets to $10 (all-in), 2 players fold, Paisting (BU) calls $8.60

Flop: ($20.49) K♠ T♠ 3♥ (2 players, 1 all-in)

Turn: ($20.49) 2♥ (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: ($20.49) J♣ (2 players, 1 all-in)

Total pot: $20.49 (Rake: $1.02)

Showdown:
dalik (BB) shows Q♦ A♣ (a straight, Ten to Ace)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 7%, Flop: 17%, Turn: 9%, River: 100%)

Paisting (BU) shows A♦ A♥ (a pair of Aces)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 93%, Flop: 83%, Turn: 91%, River: 0%)

dalik (BB) wins $19.47

888Poker Snap, Hold'em No Limit - $0.05/$0.10 - 6 players

koribut (UTG): $10.00 (100 bb)
99percentWSD (MP): $48.82 (488 bb)
Kuusa (CO): $11.10 (111 bb)
PirateRaise (BU): $10.15 (102 bb)
Paisting (SB): $14.98 (150 bb)
Goodwin71 (BB): $9.50 (95 bb)

Pre-Flop: ($0.15) Hero (Paisting) is SB with T♥ 8♣
1 fold, 99percentWSD (MP) raises to $0.22, 1 fold, PirateRaise (BU) calls $0.22, Paisting (SB) calls $0.17, 1 fold

Flop: ($0.76) J♦ 3♥ 9♦ (3 players)
Paisting (SB) checks, 99percentWSD (MP) bets $0.25, PirateRaise (BU) calls $0.25, Paisting (SB) calls $0.25

Turn: ($1.51) Q♣ (3 players)
Paisting (SB) checks, 99percentWSD (MP) checks, PirateRaise (BU) bets $0.30, Paisting (SB) raises to $14.51 (all-in), 99percentWSD (MP) calls $14.51, PirateRaise (BU) calls $9.38 (all-in)

River: ($40.21) Q♦ (3 players, 2 all-in)

Total pot: $40.21 (Rake: $2)

Showdown:
Paisting (SB) shows T♥ 8♣ (a straight, Eight to Queen)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 25%, Flop: 27%, Turn: 88%, River: 0%)

PirateRaise (BU) shows 9♠ J♠ (two pair, Queens and Jacks)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 25%, Flop: 65%, Turn: 5%, River: 0%)

99percentWSD (MP) shows Q♥ J♥ (a full house, Queens full of Jacks)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 50%, Flop: 8%, Turn: 7%, River: 100%)

99percentWSD (MP) wins $38.21

888Poker Snap, Hold'em No Limit - $0.05/$0.10 - 6 players

Italooo (UTG): $7.83 (78 bb)
Ninepawns (MP): $25.70 (257 bb)
Paisting (CO): $12.57 (126 bb)
Sebaks1 (BU): $14.81 (148 bb)
PULVERIZER58 (SB): $10.59 (106 bb)
rhyslimb (BB): $2.21 (22 bb)

Pre-Flop: ($0.15) Hero (Paisting) is CO with A♣ A♦
Italooo (UTG) raises to $7.83 (all-in), 1 fold, Paisting (CO) 3-bets to $12.57 (all-in), 3 players fold

Flop: ($15.81) T♠ J♠ K♦ (2 players, 2 all-in)

Turn: ($15.81) 9♣ (2 players, 2 all-in)

River: ($15.81) 7♣ (2 players, 2 all-in)

Total pot: $15.81 (Rake: $0.89)

Showdown:
Paisting (CO) shows A♣ A♦ (a pair of Aces)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 83%, Flop: 51%, Turn: 61%, River: 0%)

Italooo (UTG) shows 7♠ K♠ (two pair, Kings and Sevens)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 17%, Flop: 49%, Turn: 39%, River: 100%)

Italooo (UTG) wins $14.92

888Poker Snap, Hold'em No Limit - $0.05/$0.10 - 5 players

Dior78 (UTG): $2.21 (22 bb)
studentul (CO): $8.72 (87 bb)
CJBplayer (BU): $10.24 (102 bb)
Daswars18 (SB): $5.95 (60 bb)
Paisting (BB): $10.85 (109 bb)

Pre-Flop: ($0.15) Hero (Paisting) is BB with J♥ J♠
Dior78 (UTG) calls $0.10, 1 fold, CJBplayer (BU) calls $0.10, Daswars18 (SB) raises to $0.60, Paisting (BB) 3-bets to $10.85 (all-in), 2 players fold, Daswars18 (SB) calls $5.35 (all-in)

Flop: ($12.10) K♦ 7♥ 6♦ (2 players, 2 all-in)

Turn: ($12.10) 9♠ (2 players, 2 all-in)

River: ($12.10) 8♠ (2 players, 2 all-in)

Total pot: $12.10 (Rake: $0.68)

Showdown:
Paisting (BB) shows J♥ J♠ (a pair of Jacks)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 82%, Flop: 86%, Turn: 86%, River: 0%)

Daswars18 (SB) shows T♠ T♦ (a straight, Six to Ten)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 18%, Flop: 14%, Turn: 14%, River: 100%)

Daswars18 (SB) wins $11.42

888Poker Snap, Hold'em No Limit - $0.05/$0.10 - 6 players

Liaiaysun (UTG): $14.46 (145 bb)
EllyDeath (MP): $4.10 (41 bb)
Sebaks1 (CO): $18.80 (188 bb)
piknik (BU): $20.40 (204 bb)
inconscient (SB): $10.07 (101 bb)
Paisting (BB): $45.55 (456 bb)

Pre-Flop: ($0.15) Hero (Paisting) is BB with A♣ 4♣
1 fold, EllyDeath (MP) calls $0.10, 3 players fold, Paisting (BB) raises to $0.60, EllyDeath (MP) calls $0.50

Flop: ($1.25) 2♣ 4♥ 4♠ (2 players)
Paisting (BB) bets $0.93, EllyDeath (MP) raises to $3.50 (all-in), Paisting (BB) calls $2.57

Turn: ($8.25) 6♥ (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: ($8.25) 6♠ (2 players, 1 all-in)

Total pot: $8.25 (Rake: $0.42)

Showdown:
EllyDeath (MP) shows 4♦ 3♦ (a full house, Fours full of Sixes)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 29%, Flop: 22%, Turn: 23%, River: 50%)

Paisting (BB) shows A♣ 4♣ (a full house, Fours full of Sixes)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 71%, Flop: 78%, Turn: 77%, River: 50%)

EllyDeath (MP) wins $3.91
Paisting (BB) wins $3.92

888Poker Snap, Hold'em No Limit - $0.05/$0.10 - 6 players

muaMua03 (UTG): $9.95 (100 bb)
Rach92Fox (MP): $13.86 (139 bb)
Youthman023 (CO): $7.83 (78 bb)
Marleyja (BU): $0.24 (2 bb)
Jackshaw825 (SB): $7.63 (76 bb)
Paisting (BB): $21.58 (216 bb)

Pre-Flop: ($0.15) Hero (Paisting) is BB with A♥ Q♥
1 fold, Rach92Fox (MP) calls $0.10, 1 fold, Marleyja (BU) raises to $0.24 (all-in), 1 fold, Paisting (BB) 3-bets to $21.58 (all-in), 1 fold

Flop: ($0.63) 5♣ K♠ 9♠ (2 players, 2 all-in)

Turn: ($0.63) 5♠ (2 players, 2 all-in)

River: ($0.63) 2♦ (2 players, 2 all-in)

Total pot: $0.63 (Rake: $0.03)

Showdown:
Paisting (BB) shows A♥ Q♥ (a pair of Fives)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 78%, Flop: 88%, Turn: 93%, River: 0%)

Marleyja (BU) shows 2♥ Q♦ (two pair, Fives and Twos)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 22%, Flop: 12%, Turn: 7%, River: 100%)

Marleyja (BU) wins $0.60

888Poker Snap, Hold'em No Limit - $0.05/$0.10 - 5 players

Paisting (UTG): $30.52 (305 bb)
Vitvin (CO): $2.73 (27 bb)
pajolaa (BU): $9.20 (92 bb)
DYINGWINDOW (SB): $12.34 (123 bb)
___27___ (BB): $10.21 (102 bb)

Pre-Flop: ($0.15) Hero (Paisting) is UTG with T♦ T♥
Paisting (UTG) raises to $0.40, 2 players fold, DYINGWINDOW (SB) 3-bets to $0.70, 1 fold, Paisting (UTG) 4-bets to $30.52 (all-in), DYINGWINDOW (SB) calls $11.64 (all-in)

Flop: ($24.78) A♣ 3♣ Q♣ (2 players, 2 all-in)

Turn: ($24.78) 5♣ (2 players, 2 all-in)

River: ($24.78) 4♣ (2 players, 2 all-in)

Total pot: $24.78 (Rake: $1.24)

Showdown:
Paisting (UTG) shows T♦ T♥ (a flush, Ace high)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 82%, Flop: 58%, Turn: 0%, River: 0%)

DYINGWINDOW (SB) shows 9♦ 9♣ (a flush, Ace high - higher flush)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 18%, Flop: 42%, Turn: 100%, River: 100%)

DYINGWINDOW (SB) wins $23.54

888Poker Snap, Hold'em No Limit - $0.05/$0.10 - 5 players

Paisting (UTG): $21.97 (220 bb)
hezzy25 (CO): $17.97 (180 bb)
Sup3r_She3p (BU): $10.00 (100 bb)
lildawg14 (SB): $11.66 (117 bb)
DYINGWINDOW (BB): $10.00 (100 bb)

Pre-Flop: ($0.15) Hero (Paisting) is UTG with 5♦ 5♠
Paisting (UTG) raises to $0.40, 2 players fold, lildawg14 (SB) calls $0.35, 1 fold

Flop: ($0.90) J♠ 5♣ A♥ (2 players)
lildawg14 (SB) checks, Paisting (UTG) bets $0.67, lildawg14 (SB) calls $0.67

Turn: ($2.24) 9♥ (2 players)
lildawg14 (SB) checks, Paisting (UTG) bets $1.68, lildawg14 (SB) raises to $4.20, Paisting (UTG) raises to $20.90 (all-in), lildawg14 (SB) calls $6.39 (all-in)

River: ($23.42) A♠ (2 players, 2 all-in)

Total pot: $23.42 (Rake: $1.17)

Showdown:
Paisting (UTG) shows 5♦ 5♠ (a full house, Fives full of Aces)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 52%, Flop: 94%, Turn: 91%, River: 0%)

lildawg14 (SB) shows 9♣ A♣ (a full house, Aces full of Nines)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 48%, Flop: 6%, Turn: 9%, River: 100%)

lildawg14 (SB) wins $22.25

888Poker Snap, Hold'em No Limit - $0.02/$0.05 - 4 players

flotante (UTG): $12.47 (249 bb)
M1tch40 (BU): $1.06 (21 bb)
Fat_balls (SB): $3.78 (76 bb)
Paisting (BB): $5.14 (103 bb)

Pre-Flop: ($0.07) Hero (Paisting) is BB with J♠ K♣
1 fold, M1tch40 (BU) raises to $1.06 (all-in), 1 fold, Paisting (BB) calls $1.01

Flop: ($2.14) 9♣ 6♠ 3♠ (2 players, 1 all-in)

Turn: ($2.14) 2♥ (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: ($2.14) 5♣ (2 players, 1 all-in)

Total pot: $2.14 (Rake: $0.13)

Showdown:
M1tch40 (BU) shows J♦ 2♣ (a pair of Twos)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 23%, Flop: 13%, Turn: 93%, River: 100%)

Paisting (BB) shows J♠ K♣ (high card, King)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 77%, Flop: 87%, Turn: 7%, River: 0%)

M1tch40 (BU) wins $2.01

888Poker Snap, Hold'em No Limit - $0.02/$0.05 - 3 players

kox44x (BU): $6.54 (131 bb)
M1tch40 (SB): $7.77 (155 bb)
Paisting (BB): $13.09 (262 bb)

Pre-Flop: ($0.07) Hero (Paisting) is BB with T♣ A♠
1 fold, M1tch40 (SB) calls $0.03, Paisting (BB) raises to $13.09 (all-in), M1tch40 (SB) calls $7.72 (all-in)

Flop: ($15.54) 4♦ 7♥ 5♥ (2 players, 2 all-in)

Turn: ($15.54) 8♣ (2 players, 2 all-in)

River: ($15.54) J♦ (2 players, 2 all-in)

Total pot: $15.54 (Rake: $0.91)

Showdown:
Paisting (BB) shows T♣ A♠ (high card, Ace)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 71%, Flop: 81%, Turn: 80%, River: 0%)

M1tch40 (SB) shows J♠ T♥ (a pair of Jacks)
(Equity - Pre-Flop: 29%, Flop: 19%, Turn: 20%, River: 100%)

M1tch40 (SB) wins $14.63

And these are only 70%+ equity loses, there are plenty of from 50-70 and huge amount of lost 50% hands. All these players who made those suck outs are total whales with green tag with them. The pattern that repeats on 888 is where green tag whale makes too small open raise, I re raise and whale calls out of position. Then no matter what kind of flop whale won't fold. If I'm ahead then river is card that helps whale. After couple of these hands comes to all in situation and it's every time suckout to whale. And you can see similarities on their stats.

If it's rigged why don't you simply stop playing?

It's not. So stop playing.

Because

The simple answer is that if everyone who notices something that is not right are just walking away or do nothing about it, the actions that are not right keeps going. In fact this question that has repeated here multiple times amazes me a lot. Maybe there is some cultural or county based differences but I can't even imagine situation where response to illegal or criminal acts is to let them keep going.

Second I believe there is maybe 2 outcome if the situation is really that these games are not going fair. You should notice that I have maybe the biggest amount of hands and also database from smallest stake there is available. When you look at these blogs here who are saying they beat levels you won't find any blog of player who has even won 75 buy ins on nl2. Maybe years ago and maybe on another site but no one who has said they have beated nl2. Why it's so important to me and why I'm talking about they are just hoaxers who move up after 20 buy ins? Because I have months over 100 buy ins below ev and sessions that are 30 buy ins below ev. If they play more I'm really sure they confront something like I do. So I really think I have reference to talk about these things. And when I post these hands and talk what is happening on those tables maybe someone is doing something about it, maybe they have similar experiences and see these same patterns too.

Also there is lots of comments still that this variance is normal. I still haven't seen any graphs or sessions that are even near about this. So maybe someone is posting proofs about that these kind of stuff is really happening to others. When you look this topic and my graphs lets say example from 2 years it's just absolute brutal what kind of months there are running under ev. There are people who post to reddit how they have runned 30 buy ins below ev in 1 year and they are absolute shocked. My worst year is almost 200 buy ins below ev!

Okay. post your all-time NL2 graph and lets see how much under EV you actually run

An EV that is still amounting in a huge loss should your result have been exactly at EV.
Why are you so obsessed with running below EV?
Even if you were to run 200 bi above EV it would still be a losing year.

As a fellow Finn I can confirm it's not a cultural or country based difference. If Finnish people notice they get cheated they don't generally keep on playing with the cheaters for decades and give them all of their money. It's just you.

Do I remember correctly when someone compared this to getting robbed every night on the same street and still keep on walking there. And you were like, WTF of course I keep on walking there, I'm not gonna let them win. How can you not realize you actually let them win by walking to their trap every night. Exactly what you are doing with these online poker "cheaters".

Next year might be your best year so far if our new right-wing government cuts your backing deal by xx%. Fingers crossed.

You mean like letting them keep going by continuing to give them more money?

I cant even imagine situation where someone would continue to invest money and time into something they have had 0 return even once over 10 years.

I dont think is cultural difference either, more likely IQ

love that sb flat w t8o pre big brain time paistings

So you've been playing these games for 10+ years and in your own words have the largest database and most experience at micro stakes. You're think the games aren't run fairly and are so convinced and indignant about this that you aren't willing to just cut your losses and quit. In a way that's admirable, but what's the next step forward? Have you:

• Created a group chat of others affected to gather data and share information?
• Done a thorough, objective review of your database to determine if an anomaly is indeed occurring?
• Sent your database to someone with an academic background in statistics and asked them to verify your suspicions?
• Done research about how the RNG on poker sites works on a technical level, and formed a hypothesis on how exactly it's being manipulated?
• Contacted lawyers and regulatory authorities to see if anything can actually be done about the allegedly unfair games?

If you truly care about ensuring game integrity but haven't done any of the above, what exactly are you accomplishing? Poker sites need net depositors to stay alive. You are by far the biggest net depositor to ever exist at micro stakes. As it stands, not only are you participating in the allegedly rigged games and letting them steal your money, you're actually helping the sites by dumping tons of liquidity into the micro stakes pool.

Why not take a proactive step for a change and share your database publicly? I'm sure many people here would be happy to analyze it for free.

moooarrrrr

There are lots of talking about this on forums. Little bit research and you see I'm not only one who speaks about this.

What comes to manipulating RNG yes I have talked about it with a person who has working with poker stars. He contacted me and I have checked his name and work that he is really speaking truth. He didn't told me that site is hoaxing but what he told is that manipulating RNG to work that way I assume it does is really easy. He also said that is the best way for site to have whales playing. Giving them wins that they lose at some point.

I have contacted authorities like ecogra, gambling commission and mga (malta gaming authority). From ecogra I haven't found any contact to speak yet, it's just back and forth email with their info desk people. Mga started to talk about RTP percentage so their administrator basically said poker is same as slots on those sites. These kind of people are working there. Not so convincing that either.

Yes there are other people that are almost as dumb as you are