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Old 06-20-2012, 03:03 AM   #51
stasia4242
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Re: Being a 1000NL reg by the end of 2012 [STASIA42]

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Originally Posted by PandaLife View Post
Awesome thread, thank you very much for posting hands on such!

Your postflop-game looks really solid with good lines and sizings, well done.


We have 1/8 stack to pot ratio left on the river, wouldn't exactly call that good implied odds

But yeah he is getting such a good price on the turn that I don't think he can fold with that many outs.


I am wondering about your reasoning for 3betting to this big of a size, since you normally seem to use the more standard 3x. What do you look for in your villains game when making this decision?


What do you think of villains 4bet sizing in this hand? Since you classified him as a "better reg" I would expect him to 4bet significant larger here, since he is OOP and UTG so his range should be at his tightest? I guess you are still flatting this hand to a 4bet like 76?


I find BB's line in this hand so strange.. What range do you assign him on the river once he checks and how likely do you think it is that he calls or folds (like 50% fold 50% call) ? Don't know if you're a math guy but you probably at least have a feeling right?
Replies much appreciated, TX.

6c4c - regarding pre-flop sizing, probably sat on too many tables (playing 10-12 tables usually) so didn't have time to "write" the correct sizing (should be about 46$ IMO).

Main things I look pre-flop before 3betting small suited connectors with the intention to call a 4bet is loose-aggressive regs, who opens more than 17% from EP, and 4bet unbalanced ranges (very wide / very tight). Vs wide 4bet ranges it's a "value-call" in my head, vs tight 4bet range it's a "set-mining-call" in my head post-flop play varies depending on board texture and villains game, sizing, timing tells etc.

8h6h - Villain and me have TONS of dynamics from previous sessions, he started to 4bet every bet I make from LP, so I guess his sizing is aimed to piss me off / get me to levelling myself. I kinda like this sizing since lower pot gives bigger advantage to position...

Vs. this specific reg I would almost always call a standard 4bet here, yes.

5c5h - BB seems to me almost deff AK/AQ type of hand that puts me on a no-fold over-pair, and puts SB-fish on draw/made hand on this type of board.

On the river I think as played he folds about 80% of the time, my shove was mainly aimed at meta-game and for them to not see my ****ty hand

I am a math guy, but in the past year giving less credit to "direct" math and more to intuition. The QcJc hand was a very rare hand in which I had to go to "direct" math, and was really embarrassed that I reached a "must-call" situation on turn where I'm obv beat real hard.
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Old 06-20-2012, 07:28 PM   #52
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Re: Being a 1000NL reg by the end of 2012 [STASIA42]

Not sure if this has been mentioned, but do you flat AA to 4bets? Seems like you like to flat 4b much more than most so just curious if you balance that.
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Old 06-21-2012, 01:04 PM   #53
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Re: Being a 1000NL reg by the end of 2012 [STASIA42]

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Not sure if this has been mentioned, but do you flat AA to 4bets? Seems like you like to flat 4b much more than most so just curious if you balance that.
There are some aspects in my game that I rather not discuss so publicly, but let's say that when playing vs fish for example, you need to be less worried about balancing yourself, and more focused on maximum-exploiting their leaks, although this might mean that you yourself get out of your "optimal game"... Plenty of regs have serious leaks in playing 4bet pots, with or without position, especially when more than 100bb deep.

I might flat aces when I think it's the right move, I might 5bet them, I might just shove them, all depends versus who am I playing and what is his main leaks...
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Old 06-23-2012, 10:20 PM   #54
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Re: Being a 1000NL reg by the end of 2012 [STASIA42]

Another week passed along, didn't have too much time this week due to busy schedule, played only 2 sessions, the first one during a miserable Sunday-tournament-session attempt , which lasted for 6.5 hours (a LOT to me as I'm used to play no more than 3 hours), so OBV I wasn't that concentrated...

Graph:



This time I will focus on my Pocket-Sevens :}


Hand 1: Aggression with position vs a solid reg, 200bb deep


PokerStars - $4 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 5 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 3

SB: $1,035.42
BB: $400.00
UTG: $732.62
Hero (CO): $766.96
BTN: $400.00

SB posts SB $2.00, BB posts BB $4.00

Pre Flop: ($6.00) Hero has 7 7

fold, Hero raises to $8.80, fold, SB raises to $35.00, fold, Hero calls $26.20

Flop: ($74.00, 2 players) 4 9 K
SB bets $44.00, Hero calls $44.00

Turn: ($162.00, 2 players) J
SB checks, Hero bets $108.70, SB calls $108.70

River: ($379.40, 2 players) Q
SB checks, Hero bets $233.49
Spoiler:


I believe reg's range of 3bet is somewhat tighter than usual, due to the 200bb deep situation, his standard range is 25-20, 14% 3bet vs LP.
Pre flop call is somewhat standard for set-mining this deep.
Flop is less standard but I felt that because of the deep situation I would be able to take down the pot enough times when he will "let-go" hand on turn/river.
Turn is a great card for my range, and not so good to his, thought that becomes reality after he checks (weakness) and calls my lowish bet (super-weakness).
River is another great card for me, and I pondered a while between shoving and "value betting", and decided that I might have in this spot some thin-value-hands that I might bet like 60% (KQ, KJ type of hands) + betting lower gives u better odds = bet and fold.

Hand 2: The hand I'm most proud of this week


PokerStars - $4 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 3

UTG: $400.00
MP: $1,495.78
CO: $782.25
BTN: $315.20
Hero (SB): $646.50
BB: $400.00

Hero posts SB $2.00, BB posts BB $4.00

Pre Flop: ($6.00) Hero has 7 7

fold, MP raises to $8.00, fold, BTN calls $8.00, Hero calls $6.00, BB raises to $48.00, MP calls $40.00, fold, Hero calls $40.00

Flop: ($152.00, 3 players) Q 2 Q
Hero checks, BB checks, MP bets $20.00, Hero raises to $70.00, BB calls $70.00, MP calls $50.00

Turn: ($362.00, 3 players) 4
Hero checks, BB checks, MP checks

River: ($362.00, 3 players) Q
Spoiler:


HJ is a 47-26-agg fish, BB is kinggTTTTclubs (one of my best opponents, along with shcmefff). He has 6% squeeze, which I imagine are higher in this spot, where fish opens, and 2 regs just flat. I have no problem playing this OOP due to fish involvment (150bb eff).
Flop is kinda ok, and BB checks, which seems to me as 80% JJ+ and 20% AQ/KQ, and I decided to play it calm, until fish made a 20$ bet
I'm not going to fold my 77 to a 20$ bet, and calling here will be soooo weak, so I decided to "rep" something nice, and try to kick-out the reg (because I min-check-raised a fish OOP etc.). Unluckily for me, BB is a good player and knows I'm full of s**** so he snap-calls, followed by fish call, and again I decide to let go the hand.
Turn comes blank and I check with the intention to fold, but for my surprise it goes checked around and then comes the river card...
I'll currently keep my river thoughts to myself, but will just say that even if BB has aces, I think it's a super-hard call.

That's it for this time, talk 2 me
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Old 06-23-2012, 10:52 PM   #55
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Re: Being a 1000NL reg by the end of 2012 [STASIA42]

hey stasia what kind of theoretical stuff where you reading? Like any books or articles you can suggest that gave you aha moments?
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Old 06-23-2012, 11:37 PM   #56
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Re: Being a 1000NL reg by the end of 2012 [STASIA42]

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hey stasia what kind of theoretical stuff where you reading? Like any books or articles you can suggest that gave you aha moments?
As mentioned in OP, Phil Galfond's well here was the kick-off of all that's happening now (https://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/19...visisted-88525).

I read most of the "Easy game" book translated to Hebrew, was good for solidifying my theoretical background.

Amazing read I ran into lately regarding 3/4/5 bet wars is here:

http://en.donkr.com/forum/optimal-3-...-part-1-533561

Generally speaking I just to read all that's out there
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Old 06-23-2012, 11:59 PM   #57
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Re: Being a 1000NL reg by the end of 2012 [STASIA42]

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Originally Posted by stasia4242 View Post
There are some aspects in my game that I rather not discuss so publicly, but let's say that when playing vs fish for example, you need to be less worried about balancing yourself, and more focused on maximum-exploiting their leaks, although this might mean that you yourself get out of your "optimal game"... Plenty of regs have serious leaks in playing 4bet pots, with or without position, especially when more than 100bb deep.

I might flat aces when I think it's the right move, I might 5bet them, I might just shove them, all depends versus who am I playing and what is his main leaks...
i play in the same games and haved learned a fair amount about your game from this thread. ty i geuss lol
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Old 06-24-2012, 02:29 AM   #58
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Re: Being a 1000NL reg by the end of 2012 [STASIA42]

Great thread, OP. No doubt u ll move up to higher stakes soon!
I have some questions.

For the first 77 hand, what were you gonna do when the turn comes blank and he barrels again? Also, how do you like bluff-raising on the flop compared to floating like you chose to do?

Also, for the second 77 hand, do u think u can credibly rep a quad since u checked the turn when there was a possible flush draw and a lot of value you can attract from the fish? I guess the river is clearly a card that no one ever tries to bluff, so he must have it spot though.

Thanks!
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Old 06-24-2012, 04:20 AM   #59
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Re: Being a 1000NL reg by the end of 2012 [STASIA42]

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i play in the same games and haved learned a fair amount about your game from this thread. ty i geuss lol
Very tempting to answer in a sarcastic-manner, but I will BEHAVE :}
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Old 06-24-2012, 04:29 AM   #60
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Re: Being a 1000NL reg by the end of 2012 [STASIA42]

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Great thread, OP. No doubt u ll move up to higher stakes soon!
I have some questions.

For the first 77 hand, what were you gonna do when the turn comes blank and he barrels again? Also, how do you like bluff-raising on the flop compared to floating like you chose to do?

Also, for the second 77 hand, do u think u can credibly rep a quad since u checked the turn when there was a possible flush draw and a lot of value you can attract from the fish? I guess the river is clearly a card that no one ever tries to bluff, so he must have it spot though.

Thanks!
First 77 hand: If turn comes blank and he barrels again I'll probably fold, although not to many "blanks" in the deck if you think it through... This is some special texture board (IMO) where people feel that they have no equity in barrelling (e.g. "he will fold anything that is weaker than me, and shove with his sets/two pairs). It seems that double-barrelling OOP in a 3bet-pot 200bb deep is a long-lost-art

Bluff-raising the flop seems kinda weak IMO, because the only value hands I have here are 44, 99, maybe K9, and I'm not so sure that I raise them every time... I would like it more if board will be like 7 9 K rainbow, because then I can raise on the smallish side, and bet turn again if he calls (Imagine yourself sitting there with AK OOP 200bb deep... u feel kinda stupid sitting there, crying call flop raise only to fold to a turn bet ).

Second 77 hand: I think I can rep a weak Q easily with the way I played. Fish is an agro, and as mentioned I was very surprised when the turn was checked around. I can see myself playing QT/Q9 in a similar manner.. not sure about the value I can extract from fish if I do have the Q and bet turn, my bet seems soooo strong here that I think fish folds his entire range.

Last edited by stasia4242; 06-24-2012 at 04:50 AM.
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Old 06-24-2012, 04:43 AM   #61
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Re: Being a 1000NL reg by the end of 2012 [STASIA42]

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First 77 hand: If river comes blank and he barrels again I'll probably fold, although not to many "blanks" in the deck if you think it through... This is some special texture board (IMO) where people feel that they have no equity in barrelling (e.g. "he will fold anything that is weaker than me, and shove with his sets/two pairs). It seems that double-barrelling OOP in a 3bet-pot 200bb deep is a long-lost-art

Bluff-raising the flop seems kinda weak IMO, because the only value hands I have here are 44, 99, maybe K9, and I'm not so sure that I raise them every time... I would like it more if board will be like 7 9 K rainbow, because then I can raise on the smallish side, and bet turn again if he calls (Imagine yourself sitting there with AK OOP 200bb deep... u feel kinda stupid sitting there, crying call flop raise only to fold to a turn bet ).

Second 77 hand: I think I can rep a weak Q easily with the way I played. Fish is an agro, and as mentioned I was very surprised when the turn was checked around. I can see myself playing QT/Q9 in a similar manner.. not sure about the value I can extract from fish if I do have the Q and bet turn, my bet seems soooo strong here that I think fish folds his entire range.
Thanks a lot for your answer! Just one thing, when you said "If river comes blank and he barrels again I'll probably fold" in the first 77 hand, you mean "turn" right? I was wondering what you were gonna do when the turn comes blank and he barrels again

Good Luck and post more hands please! Hands you post seem really interesting
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Old 06-24-2012, 04:51 AM   #62
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Re: Being a 1000NL reg by the end of 2012 [STASIA42]

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Thanks a lot for your answer! Just one thing, when you said "If river comes blank and he barrels again I'll probably fold" in the first 77 hand, you mean "turn" right? I was wondering what you were gonna do when the turn comes blank and he barrels again

Good Luck and post more hands please! Hands you post seem really interesting
Yah, meant turn ofc, tx for feedback, fixed it

It seems that when I upload too many hands it all just gets mixed.. maybe I'll try a hand-by-hand format
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Old 06-24-2012, 04:54 AM   #63
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Re: Being a 1000NL reg by the end of 2012 [STASIA42]

Nice hand vs 37-20 fish, 300bb deep... BU making a short appearance in the hand is a reg.


PokerStars - $4 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 3

BB: $400.00
UTG: $2,370.31
MP: $510.20
Hero (CO): $1,308.34
BTN: $558.03
SB: $575.59

SB posts SB $2.00, BB posts BB $4.00

Pre Flop: ($6.00) Hero has 9 9

UTG raises to $8.00, fold, Hero raises to $36.00, BTN calls $36.00, fold, fold, UTG calls $28.00

Flop: ($114.00, 3 players) 2 3 7
UTG checks, Hero bets $68.94, fold, UTG calls $68.94

Turn: ($251.88, 2 players) T
UTG checks, Hero checks

River: ($251.88, 2 players) 3
UTG bets $352.00, Hero calls $352.00
Spoiler:


Was pondering on turn if making a value bet and then prob checking river, or check-inducing-turn and snapping any river, eventually decided that his range is so weak, and my check will look so weak as well that he will be obligated to bet river, over-bet kinda surprised me, but still was an insta-call.
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Old 06-24-2012, 05:08 AM   #64
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Re: Being a 1000NL reg by the end of 2012 [STASIA42]

I check turn behind as well since it's a 3bet pot and don't suspect he calls again with overcards and he doesn't have that many 7x in his range because its a 3bet pot. I would also call river since I don't think he has many 3x and don't see him doing this with Tx. Suspected to see overcards though, 44 kinda surprised me. I would bet turn though if I suspected he would never bluff river.

That said, I play 10 times lower than u do, but just my thoughts Also interesting u post ur thought processes. Interesting to read and to learn from it.
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Old 06-24-2012, 05:31 AM   #65
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Re: Being a 1000NL reg by the end of 2012 [STASIA42]

NH
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Old 06-24-2012, 06:23 AM   #66
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Re: Being a 1000NL reg by the end of 2012 [STASIA42]

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Replies much appreciated, TX.

6c4c - regarding pre-flop sizing, probably sat on too many tables (playing 10-12 tables usually) so didn't have time to "write" the correct sizing (should be about 46$ IMO).

Main things I look pre-flop before 3betting small suited connectors with the intention to call a 4bet is loose-aggressive regs, who opens more than 17% from EP, and 4bet unbalanced ranges (very wide / very tight). Vs wide 4bet ranges it's a "value-call" in my head, vs tight 4bet range it's a "set-mining-call" in my head post-flop play varies depending on board texture and villains game, sizing, timing tells etc.


Im very sorry. I dont mean to lecture you or anything close to that. obviously you must be doing good with these type of hands. But you seem to have very little understanding of GTO preflop play, and so do the regs that play with you if they are how you describe them

Regardless. How can you ever justify to have 64s in your 3bet/call 4 bet(lol) vs EP range. This no matter how good you are (or think you are) will result in you losing money in the long term, its a really bad play speaking GTO.

The way you describe it, it seems like in this scenario you are never folding to a 4 bet (????) for "value reason". this is bs because you will play bad in such a big pot with such a weak hand without being the agressor, regardless again of how good you are. You can try to outplay and outsmart him, still he will win more money in the long run and you will have to end up spewing tons

Then the 2nd reason "setmining" , its really really really obvious you dont have the pot odds, implied odds, or stacks behind to play this hand in such a way

The simple and much much better adjustment is if he is 4 betting wider, just 3bet shove more hands ofc. And if he has a tight 4 bet range, well either he will be folding tons to your 3 bets, wich means insta free money and profit (SO you Dont need to be HERO defending vs a super strong range) or will be calling lots OOP and that also means Insta free money for you. Either Way, defending this is just plain ******ed and a bad move overall

Dont get me wrong, Im a big fan of unortodox play and making moves etc. but this is just plain ******ed defenses from the GTO perspective. and no one has such a big edge agaisnt another reg to be profiting in this kind of spots in the long run


Fell free to prove me wrong by providing a decent sample of call 4 bet ip w/ shet hands vs a reg and winning money .


You must be a really good player, I dont doubt it. But you are trying too hard clearly in spots like this. Your edge and winnings dont come from here. You are just adding free variance and ev- spots to look cooler imho (just my opinion). And probably spewing a decent amount. This kind of things hit the hardest when you go through a downswing (hope you dont get one anytime soon)

gl and just my 2 cents
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Old 06-24-2012, 08:44 AM   #67
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Re: Being a 1000NL reg by the end of 2012 [STASIA42]

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I check turn behind as well since it's a 3bet pot and don't suspect he calls again with overcards and he doesn't have that many 7x in his range because its a 3bet pot. I would also call river since I don't think he has many 3x and don't see him doing this with Tx. Suspected to see overcards though, 44 kinda surprised me. I would bet turn though if I suspected he would never bluff river.

That said, I play 10 times lower than u do, but just my thoughts Also interesting u post ur thought processes. Interesting to read and to learn from it.
TX 4 comment, basically poker is poker, no matter what stakes you play.. I agree with u totally and vs a passive fish I would bet turn, and ponder regarding betting the river as well. VS aggro fish I find it easier to let them hang themselves :}
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Old 06-24-2012, 09:04 AM   #68
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Re: Being a 1000NL reg by the end of 2012 [STASIA42]

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Im very sorry. I dont mean to lecture you or anything close to that. obviously you must be doing good with these type of hands. But you seem to have very little understanding of GTO preflop play, and so do the regs that play with you if they are how you describe them

Regardless. How can you ever justify to have 64s in your 3bet/call 4 bet(lol) vs EP range. This no matter how good you are (or think you are) will result in you losing money in the long term, its a really bad play speaking GTO.

The way you describe it, it seems like in this scenario you are never folding to a 4 bet (????) for "value reason". this is bs because you will play bad in such a big pot with such a weak hand without being the agressor, regardless again of how good you are. You can try to outplay and outsmart him, still he will win more money in the long run and you will have to end up spewing tons

Then the 2nd reason "setmining" , its really really really obvious you dont have the pot odds, implied odds, or stacks behind to play this hand in such a way

The simple and much much better adjustment is if he is 4 betting wider, just 3bet shove more hands ofc. And if he has a tight 4 bet range, well either he will be folding tons to your 3 bets, wich means insta free money and profit (SO you Dont need to be HERO defending vs a super strong range) or will be calling lots OOP and that also means Insta free money for you. Either Way, defending this is just plain ******ed and a bad move overall

Dont get me wrong, Im a big fan of unortodox play and making moves etc. but this is just plain ******ed defenses from the GTO perspective. and no one has such a big edge agaisnt another reg to be profiting in this kind of spots in the long run


Fell free to prove me wrong by providing a decent sample of call 4 bet ip w/ shet hands vs a reg and winning money .


You must be a really good player, I dont doubt it. But you are trying too hard clearly in spots like this. Your edge and winnings dont come from here. You are just adding free variance and ev- spots to look cooler imho (just my opinion). And probably spewing a decent amount. This kind of things hit the hardest when you go through a downswing (hope you dont get one anytime soon)

gl and just my 2 cents
Tx very much for your 2 cents, I wrote at the beginning of the thread that as mush as I like praises and compliments, my main reason for writing here is getting some good criticism regarding leaks in my game. So far you have been the first, and it was a well-written comment. I have to go out to drink some beer, but in the meanwhile I managed to filter my 2 months database from 400NL+600NL (80k hands).

The filters I used:
Position = 0 or 1
preflop 3bet
call 4bet preflop
NOT (preflop raise all-in)
NOt (facing all in preflop)
Hole cards = all one-gap+two-gap suited connectors until T9s

The result is this:



I will write a long comment regarding my thoughts on this spot, but for now I'd like to point out 3 things:

1. I try to do it more in more than 140bb deep, where GTO (IMO) is less useful, as you can see I have only 22 hands out of 80k database where I used this "trick". I choose these spots wisely.

2. 64s vs AKo is 40-60

3. If I lose 8-9bb on every hand it is still worth it for me (same as fodling the 3bet), image-wise, monster-hand-wise etc.

Will post much longer comment when I get back from beer-drinking :P
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Old 06-24-2012, 05:24 PM   #69
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Re: Being a 1000NL reg by the end of 2012 [STASIA42]

Nice to see that you take criticism in a good way.

140bb deep preflop GTO still exists just as much as with 100bb deep. Its just harder to calculate of course.

Of course I think that if you are doing it at 140 or more bb deep spots, its better than if you do it at 100bb spots, but still is a bad move imo. Im not sure if you have 200+ blinds and you have very specific reads of your adversary plays and ranges. (I'd still imagine it will be too hard to play still, with 177 -or something like that- blinds behind in a 50bb pot with a range thats crushing you)

If you oponent has good understanding of preflop play (as I assume most of the NL400 regs must have). And he opens around 17-20% in UTG, he should be defending in order to play Optimal around 30% wich means roughly 5.5% of hands. And he should have a proportion of 40% bluff and 60% value -more or less- (maybe more like 45% bluff 55% value).

Assuming that villian is not CALLING your 3 bet OOP much times from EP to LP, cause this is just a way of getting hugely exploited and a bad play overall. HE should be using his 2nd best hands wich he wont 4 bet for value to use them as a 4bet bluff (because of blockers). But another thing he could do is just 4bet bluffing around 15% of the remaining hands he is not going to be 4betting for value from his Opening range and he will have around the same number. (wont get into this right now, its just GTO math).

So his 4 bet range shoud look like this more or less:

Value: JJ+,AKs,AKo
Bluff: AQs,KQs,AQo,KQo or 15% of the hands he is not 4bet bluffing with.

Anyways if we use this ranges against any of those hands you mentioned you will see your equity is around 33%.

I dont know about you, but I rather not play a 50bb pot with 120bb's behind in this situation. After a cbet there will be most likely just 1 betting street more. Cause you will have an around 100-110bb pot with 90-100bbs behind.

With his range crushing ours so much, it doesnt look as a good proposition to be in this situation and have such a small SPR (stack to pot ratio). You just wont be able to defend enough boards as you need to in order to win in this spots in the long term.

Simply put, you need to defend x% of the time in order to not burn money in the flop after you call a 4 bet. with a 25-30bb cbet on a 50bbpot (using aprox numbers ofc) you will have to defend around 66-70% of the time . And I havent done the calculations, -they can easily be done with flopzilla- but I am 100% positive that these type of hands you are calling with will not be included in the hands that you can defend with like 80% of the time, so basically by including these hands, you are just making your range too weak by being unable to defend enough for the ammount of times you call, and are in the long run losing money with this.

There are much better ways of exploiting unbalanced villians than to call their 4 bets IP with really weak holdings in such low SPR spots. Instead of making the ev+ play, you are making the ev- .

And doing this against the oponnets who know GTO (wich I asume in NL400 must be a fair amount) is just suicidal, cause they are playing perfect and you are deviating by far from perfect play, so by definition, losing money for sure. And then again, doing this against unbalanced oponents is just bad. You wont be able to exploit them this way, and you will add free Variance when you play these spots. There are ways of trully exploiting them wich are much easier, include alot less variance and will make you a big profit in the long run.


I know Im missing stuff, but I have gone too far with this post already haha. (too long I mean)
Id like to hear your thoughts.

Oh and your sample. 20 hands is lol ofc.

GL

Regarding your comments:
Quote:
1. I try to do it more in more than 140bb deep, where GTO (IMO) is less useful, as you can see I have only 22 hands out of 80k database where I used this "trick". I choose these spots wisely.

2. 64s vs AKo is 40-60

3. If I lose 8-9bb on every hand it is still worth it for me (same as fodling the 3bet), image-wise, monster-hand-wise etc.
1. I think using it deeper is ofc better, but has to be much deeper imo. At least 200bb (still doubt is good, or at lest the better option). Its good also you dont do it often ofc. And I dont think it would qualify as a "trick", its just a bad play covered with the name trick haha

2. 64s vs his range is closer to 30-70

3. Image wise depends on whom you are creating image with, but would be an OK reason imo. monster hand wise, you dont need to add more bluffs then the optimal to cover for your monsters, this is bad reasoning, you will just have a very exploitable weighted towards alot more bluffs than you should.

Last edited by chillskill; 06-24-2012 at 05:49 PM.
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Old 06-25-2012, 07:00 AM   #70
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Re: Being a 1000NL reg by the end of 2012 [STASIA42]

Ok, have some spare time to click some keyboard buttons Decided to answer point-by-point and then summarize it in my words... Feels it's the most respectful way to answer your long-hard-worked-post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chillskill View Post
But you seem to have very little understanding of GTO preflop play, and so do the regs that play with you if they are how you describe them
I had taken some "Game Theory" curses from college, and went to some lectures of well-known speakers in Israel, so I have some kind of understanding of the GTO concept, life-wise, and poker-wise. My main argument vs GTO/ ICM (in tournaments) and everything that involves competitive-games and people who are playing them, is that it's very unlikely that you meet at the poker tables someone who plays perfectly, even in 20bb situation (CAP games), not to mention 100bb or 200bb. It is well known that when someone deviates from "optimal" play, your best way to exploit him is deviating yourself as well from "optimal" play, and trying to not get exploited by the other players while doing so. Most of the MSNL regs (me among them) have less-than-optimal ABC theory play, not to mention their (and mine) tilting sessions/bad-life-day-sessions/multi-tabling 20 tables/some random lie.

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Originally Posted by chillskill View Post
How can you ever justify to have 64s in your 3bet/call 4 bet(lol) vs EP range.
I'm not so sure regarding my hand selection for this spot, but I tried to think what is the best (weak) range vs an open-4bet from EP range, and I think that low suited connectors are the best (although only 33% if u r right). I'm not a PokerStove fan-boy, so if someone can find a better (weak) range vs EP (maybe 22-55 / 3gap non-suited connectors etc.) , I will gladly shift my range. I'm trying to find hands that I usually fold to an open from EP, and can 3bet-call them (not every time ofc) with maximum loss of 9bb.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chillskill View Post
The way you describe it, it seems like in this scenario you are never folding to a 4 bet (????) for "value reason" / "setmining".
I'm folding at least 50% of this spot, if not more. most of my 3bets with LSC (low-suited-connectors, last time I write it fully ) comes vs loose-open-tight-4bettor EP, and my money is made by their foldings, so OBV I fold when they're finally 4bet, UNLESS it's 170bb+ (for this type of player).

Quote:
Originally Posted by chillskill View Post
The simple and much much better adjustment is if he is 4 betting wider, just 3bet shove more hands ofc.
Generally speaking, I think that the bigger your edge, the less you want to go all-in pre. I think it leads your opponent to make a LOT more mistakes if you can play flop+turn+sometimes river, and not just flip your way around the cash game with 99+ AJ+ (like some bad regs at MSNL do).

Quote:
Originally Posted by chillskill View Post
Fell free to prove me wrong by providing a decent sample of call 4 bet ip w/ shet hands vs a reg and winning money .
I don't believe I will ever have a "decent" sample, because this situation is so rare. It might seem from this thread that I do it a lot, because almost every week I post one hand like this, but the main thing to understand here is that I might be doing this a total of 3 times per *week*. Thus said, my "non-decent" sample seems OK to me

Quote:
Originally Posted by chillskill View Post
You must be a really good player, I dont doubt it. But you are trying too hard clearly in spots like this. Your edge and winnings dont come from here. You are just adding free variance and ev- spots to look cooler imho (just my opinion).
I totally agree with me doing this stuff to "look cooler" . I try to enjoy poker while playing, and because of that I play few hours a day (no more than 3 hours usually), and do cool moves whenever I can. It seems to me that going on these so-called EV- spots (which is actually OK if I lose less than 9bb per hand doing so) , and going to show-down with LSC in 4bet pot, gives me sooooo much more EV+ situations in other, non-related, spots along the way. People often say my winrates had already been extinct from the MSNL world a couple of years ago, maybe these EV- spots (and some other EV- spots that I take) are the difference between 3bb/100 and 14bb/100...

Quote:
Originally Posted by chillskill View Post
And probably spewing a decent amount. This kind of things hit the hardest when you go through a downswing (hope you dont get one anytime soon)
I really try hard not to spew, but when it happens I calm-down for the current session, and believe that people often think I'm tilted, so I abuse this situation (KTs hand where I hit quads on turn, big-overshove-river and get called by a great reg with 99 under the board... 1 orbit before I 3bet J9s vs EP, BB cold 4bet, EP fold, I call, board whatever, he checks I bet lowish, he calls, turn open ended for me, he checks, I jam, he tank-folds, I show cards . As mentioned, 1 orbit later other reg calls my over-shove-quads...). I do agree that if and when I'll be on a downswing, those type of moves will disappear from my arsenal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chillskill View Post
gl and just my 2 cents
Great 2 cents, thanks a bunch

Last edited by stasia4242; 06-25-2012 at 07:06 AM.
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Old 06-25-2012, 07:09 AM   #71
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Re: Being a 1000NL reg by the end of 2012 [STASIA42]

Mentioned J9s hand, 1 orbit before the KTs quads...


PokerStars - $4 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 3

BTN: $400.00
SB: $169.19
BB: $422.95
UTG: $568.81
MP: $400.00
Hero (CO): $400.00

SB posts SB $2.00, BB posts BB $4.00

Pre Flop: ($6.00) Hero has J 9

UTG raises to $8.00, fold, Hero raises to $32.00, fold, fold, BB raises to $80.00, fold, Hero calls $48.00

Flop: ($170.00, 2 players) 7 K 5
BB checks, Hero bets $78.61, BB calls $78.61

Turn: ($327.22, 2 players) T
BB checks, Hero bets $241.39 and is all-in, fold

Hero shows J 9 (High Card, King)
Hero wins $324.42

It doesn't show but Hero showed the hand, and then me and the BB are discussing how tilted I am from these Saturday sessions, that people do really crazy **** vs me (recreational players mostly).

Last edited by stasia4242; 06-25-2012 at 07:35 AM.
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Old 06-25-2012, 07:35 AM   #72
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Re: Being a 1000NL reg by the end of 2012 [STASIA42]

Quote:
Originally Posted by chillskill View Post
Nice to see that you take criticism in a good way.
I actually ADORE criticism because it makes me write my own thoughts and then examine them from a fresher perspective, so carry on

Quote:
Originally Posted by chillskill View Post
140bb deep preflop GTO still exists just as much as with 100bb deep. Its just harder to calculate of course.
Try impossible to calculate, when playing more than 6 tables at a time, vs different opponents

Quote:
Originally Posted by chillskill View Post
Assuming that villian is not CALLING your 3 bet OOP much times from EP to LP, cause this is just a way of getting hugely exploited and a bad play overall...
Actually when people saw me at SD with LSC, they started calling me pretty wide from EP, and one great reg started to min-4bet me This is a great example of how my EV- move, became a gigantic EV+ move after they have made their "adjustments".

Quote:
Originally Posted by chillskill View Post
...[GTO stuff]... HE should be using his 2nd best hands wich he wont 4 bet for value to use them as a 4bet bluff (because of blockers). But another thing he could do is just 4bet bluffing around 15% of the remaining hands he is not going to be 4betting for value from his Opening range and he will have around the same number. (wont get into this right now, its just GTO math).

So his 4 bet range shoud look like this more or less:

Value: JJ+,AKs,AKo
Bluff: AQs,KQs,AQo,KQo or 15% of the hands he is not 4bet bluffing with.

Anyways if we use this ranges against any of those hands you mentioned you will see your equity is around 33%.
All this seems pretty accurate on paper, and I get what you are saying. Furthermore I completely agree that if we build a computer that plays vs me only EP vs LP, in a manner of 2bet, I 3bet, he 4bet (with mentioned ranges) and I call, I will most deff burn all my online roll Luckily for me, I play versus humans, most of them are not that good in poker, nor in math, and we don't only play EP vs LP, and I somtimes fold to their 4bet, and I sometimes 5bet, or jam, or whatever. Main thing to consider here, is that beside 2 players (ssccmeefff, kingTTTclubs, and mayyybe Lostrrivver or something like that) from a gigantic pool of the MSNL, all the other guys have never REALLY thought about the optimal way to fight this move, and just play it "by ear".

Quote:
Originally Posted by chillskill View Post
I dont know about you, but I rather not play a 50bb pot with 120bb's behind in this situation. After a cbet there will be most likely just 1 betting street more. Cause you will have an around 100-110bb pot with 90-100bbs behind.
I actually have no problem playing this spot, am not afraid and quite used to it, I know how to spot different sizing in these spots, I know the flop/turn/river average cbet percentage in these spots, know what check-turn means on different types of boards etc. I have this knowledge from not afraiding from playing these spots, and this gives me a huge advantage, because most regs never find themselves in these situations (at least not as much as me).

One simple example of where "your" GTO falls (not because of you, your numbers are very accurate, but because of them, because they don't have your post pasted above their screens ), is right from the start, their cbet will usually be less than their 4bet size, around 17bb. Most of them will make the same bet on the turn (Just LOL ). I actually usually get direct odds (not implied) with my draws, hihi.

Quote:
Originally Posted by chillskill View Post
I know Im missing stuff, but I have gone too far with this post already haha. (too long I mean)
Id like to hear your thoughts.
Well, you got them (my thoughts)

Quote:
Originally Posted by chillskill View Post
2. 64s vs his range is closer to 30-70.
I wasn't talking vs the range, I was talking vs AKo. I always try to make things easier for me and not thinking about full ranges (unless you have pokerstove installed into your head, it's kinda hard to calculate equity of a specific hand vs an entire range). I try to assign a specific hand that gives me a nice picture of thier range, for example, in this spot I think AKo best describes their range.

The beauty and theoretical edge nowadays in online poker, when "everybody knows the right ranges and plays" (hihi) is assigning the most accurate ranges for your opponent, and for yourself, in specific situations. Easy example of a bad assigning, made by pros all the time (prob me as well) will be 3barreling vs a passive fish, two streets as a semi-bluff, and river as a total bluff, on semi-dry board textures. Common-reg will be like "yeah, he called me with top pair low kicker all the way because he's sooo weak, but I'm here with at least 30% bluff / 70% value so I'm making TONS of money from this spot" , and I will stand behind him and say something like - "Sure man, but y not shoving river when u actually hit your draw, check-fold your missed draws, and 3barrel your value hands, and then you will be here 15% check-fold-not-losing-much, and 85% value owning the fish's ASS".

Last edited by stasia4242; 06-25-2012 at 07:42 AM.
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Old 06-25-2012, 07:41 AM   #73
IveGotUrOuts
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Re: Being a 1000NL reg by the end of 2012 [STASIA42]

I had taken some "Game Theory" curses from college,

Do you believe this helped u with poker? I have a Game Theory course atm, and think it's pretty useless for poker tbh.
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Old 06-25-2012, 08:16 AM   #74
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Re: Being a 1000NL reg by the end of 2012 [STASIA42]

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Originally Posted by IveGotUrOuts View Post
I had taken some "Game Theory" curses from college,

Do you believe this helped u with poker? I have a Game Theory course atm, and think it's pretty useless for poker tbh.
I think everything u learn can be adjusted to poker, wether it is "game theory" or "how to make shopping more efficient"... My course was kinda focused on stuff that wasn't at all poker related, but did manage to get some nice poker-wise-thoughts regarding how I define poker player "types" and best strategies vs them.
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Old 06-25-2012, 09:11 AM   #75
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Re: Being a 1000NL reg by the end of 2012 [STASIA42]

I understand the way you think and share it more than you imagine. I just think that Im seeing an aspect of your game wich can be improven and Im aiming towards it by questioning you.

By playing perfect according to GTO you dont need to calculate nothing while you play, you can just know the perfect ranges by memory for each opening % or just have them written down. The beauty of knowing this is not playing according to it yourself everytime, but by knowing what perfect play is then you know how your oponnent deviate from it and what is the best stape to take agaisnt the deviation he is taking. And when you find someone (rarely as you say) who does play perfect, he cant exploit you.

Anyways, this is just stuff wich would improve anyones game but is not even close to the most important stuff you need to play poker, and it would just be something to improve anyones winrate (wich you dont desperately need from what I can tell)

I didnt know this stuff too well a few months ago, and now I do, my game hasnt changed much due to it, but now I have become stronger in certain spots where I wasnt so much.

About the bet sizing thing in 4 bet pots, it wont change too much from an avg of 17-20 blinds to an avg of 25-30. but yes its a difference anyways. This would mean you have to defend around 72% of the time in avg instead.

Anyways, I see why you do good and I love creative play and creative minds. best of luck for you

just a final Q: how many tables you play at once.

If you want to talk in the future just add me on skype: chillskill87
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