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Old 09-30-2012, 02:47 PM   #276
stasia4242
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Re: Being a 1000NL reg by the end of 2012 [STASIA42]

Quote:
Originally Posted by phenomenal View Post
I think it is a waste of time to think how villain would play his sets/two pairs/one pair hands. Not because you should not talk strategy but because they are a very small part of his range due to couple of things. Combos. You have two aces in your hand. One on the flop. It makes it really hard for villain to have a made hand.

99/88 = 6 combos.
A9s/A8s = 2 combos
AQ/AJ = 8 combos

16 combos maximum on the river for made hands. If he raises the better half of them then 8 combos. If he folds AJ OTT then 4. When we shove he may fold the rest of combos. If we shove it could be that he calls with 0 worse combos if he raises sets somewhere.

Draws on the other hand are everywhere. SDs: QJs/QTs/JTs/76s/75s/65s. FDs: KQ/KJ/QJ/QT/JT/76. Plus T8cc/87cc/86cc.


27 certain combos of draws he gets to river with. VS 0 combos of certain worse made hands he calls the shove with. And if he plays K3s aswell the ratio could be something like 50 to 0. Never ever shove this river with AA. Check and decide.
After thinking it through I guess you're right, prob check and fold.. Such an absurd hand.
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Old 09-30-2012, 03:13 PM   #277
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Re: Being a 1000NL reg by the end of 2012 [STASIA42]

Yes prob a x/f at 100nl
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Old 10-05-2012, 03:17 PM   #278
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Re: Being a 1000NL reg by the end of 2012 [STASIA42]

Two weird hands vs regs from last couple of days...

Hand 1: Vs a tricky reg

PokerStars - $2 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 5 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 3

BTN: $74.05
Hero (SB): $304.77
BB: $304.82
UTG: $226.34
CO: $281.13

Hero posts SB $1.00, BB posts BB $2.00

Pre Flop: ($3.00) Hero has 5 5

fold, CO raises to $6.00, fold, Hero calls $5.00, fold

Flop: ($14.00, 2 players) Q 6 5
Hero checks, CO checks

Turn: ($14.00, 2 players) K
Hero checks, CO bets $10.02, Hero raises to $31.06, CO calls $21.04

River: ($76.12, 2 players) 7
Hero bets $52.19, CO raises to $172.00, Hero ?


Hand 2: Vs tight reg, sb is a fish

PokerStars - $2 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 3

MP: $282.38
Hero (CO): $224.58
BTN: $80.00
SB: $63.62
BB: $200.00
UTG: $298.75

SB posts SB $1.00, BB posts BB $2.00

Pre Flop: ($3.00) Hero has Q T

fold, fold, Hero raises to $4.40, fold, SB calls $3.40, BB calls $2.40

Flop: ($13.20, 3 players) 3 T Q
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets $7.24, SB calls $7.24, BB raises to $28.00, Hero calls $20.76, fold

Turn: ($76.44, 2 players) 4
BB checks, Hero bets $46.39, BB raises to $167.60 and is all-in, Hero calls $121.21

Replies on flop/turn would be greatly appreciated.
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Old 10-05-2012, 07:00 PM   #279
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Re: Being a 1000NL reg by the end of 2012 [STASIA42]

wow two very interesting hands.

but the first one really doesnt make any sense for any hand that beats you. as a big chunk of QQ will cbet given the flop is so wet providing straight draws flushdraws etc. i would guess both 98 and 34 would cbet a bunch of the time as well and KK is never in his range on the river. however of all those hands possibly one combo doesn make it to the river haing ben played in a pretty lol way... and really vs your line there literally isnt a worse hand that takes this line as u actually do look a bunch like a monster so i would guess its foldable? i would be puking bigtime tho

with the second hand i think your line and a reraise on the flop both have merits and problems. by calling you keep the sb in the pot or possibly give him the chance to smell deadish money and resqueez with his likely weak hand. however there are so insanely many cards that will either kill ur hand or ur action that flatting certainly isnt the nut play. i mean any club (9) any nine (3) any jack (3) any king (3) and ace (3) for a total 21 cards or 44% of the deck may very well be moneyburners for you in one of those two ways whereas you likely get stacks in vs most of those worse hands onthe flop be it hands like AQ/KQ that didnt squeeze, QJ, KJ, J9, (AJ) or any possible flushdraw. the issue with a reraise is of course that the villainmay fold out a bunch of the worse hands making his get it in range a bunch stronger that way.

i think given that QQ is basically impossible for him to have and TT possibly squeezes a bunch preflop as well and we block the last combo the only better hand he has there is 33 on the flop so his range is pretty strongly weighted to air (unlikely given board and action) top pair (more likely but AQ is discounted, we block Qx and there just arent many other Qx hands left for him to have other that KQ QJ again not that many hands- still most combos as compared to the rest of his range) and draws (could be any type of draw but likely weighted towards combodraws and straight draws with overcards like KJ J9cc.

overall i think there isnt that much of a difference as to what we choose to do because we can never know if villain proceeds to stick in his stack with KQ on a 5s turn or not as long as we make the right decisions on various turns- probably fold on any turn that is 9 or higher- ship over his bet on most bricks as we can assume hell have bet an amount that doesnt allow him to let go of anything, probably bet ourselves if checked to on a club as he s likely to bet flushes himself and evaluate his sizing when hebets a club turn himself. still not sure if the potential action loss on scary cards vs the bulk of his worse valuerange is worse than the potential alueloss by 3betting flop...

Spoiler:
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Old 10-06-2012, 07:53 AM   #280
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Re: Being a 1000NL reg by the end of 2012 [STASIA42]

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Originally Posted by blakkman08 View Post
wow two very interesting hands.

but the first one really doesnt make any sense for any hand that beats you. as a big chunk of QQ will cbet given the flop is so wet providing straight draws flushdraws etc. i would guess both 98 and 34 would cbet a bunch of the time as well and KK is never in his range on the river. however of all those hands possibly one combo doesn make it to the river haing ben played in a pretty lol way... and really vs your line there literally isnt a worse hand that takes this line as u actually do look a bunch like a monster so i would guess its foldable? i would be puking bigtime tho

with the second hand i think your line and a reraise on the flop both have merits and problems. by calling you keep the sb in the pot or possibly give him the chance to smell deadish money and resqueez with his likely weak hand. however there are so insanely many cards that will either kill ur hand or ur action that flatting certainly isnt the nut play. i mean any club (9) any nine (3) any jack (3) any king (3) and ace (3) for a total 21 cards or 44% of the deck may very well be moneyburners for you in one of those two ways whereas you likely get stacks in vs most of those worse hands onthe flop be it hands like AQ/KQ that didnt squeeze, QJ, KJ, J9, (AJ) or any possible flushdraw. the issue with a reraise is of course that the villainmay fold out a bunch of the worse hands making his get it in range a bunch stronger that way.

i think given that QQ is basically impossible for him to have and TT possibly squeezes a bunch preflop as well and we block the last combo the only better hand he has there is 33 on the flop so his range is pretty strongly weighted to air (unlikely given board and action) top pair (more likely but AQ is discounted, we block Qx and there just arent many other Qx hands left for him to have other that KQ QJ again not that many hands- still most combos as compared to the rest of his range) and draws (could be any type of draw but likely weighted towards combodraws and straight draws with overcards like KJ J9cc.

overall i think there isnt that much of a difference as to what we choose to do because we can never know if villain proceeds to stick in his stack with KQ on a 5s turn or not as long as we make the right decisions on various turns- probably fold on any turn that is 9 or higher- ship over his bet on most bricks as we can assume hell have bet an amount that doesnt allow him to let go of anything, probably bet ourselves if checked to on a club as he s likely to bet flushes himself and evaluate his sizing when hebets a club turn himself. still not sure if the potential action loss on scary cards vs the bulk of his worse valuerange is worse than the potential alueloss by 3betting flop...

Spoiler:
Liked the "spoiler" summary
Generally speaking I totally agree with most of what u said... My question is how would you play the hands yourself, and not "as played.." .

To be more precise, I usually donk turn with 55 , and check-behind turn with QT vs reg-tag. In these spots I thought I had some "reads" or "dynamics" so made different moves than my standard lines, and not so sure it was the right move.
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Old 10-06-2012, 08:26 AM   #281
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Re: Being a 1000NL reg by the end of 2012 [STASIA42]

First hand: I think its a call, I think he excludes so much hands that beat you by not Cbetting (at the least the regs i play with). I think all regs Cbet QQ, KK, 77, 66 and 89 on that board in position. Its an assumption I would make and if he shows up with one of these hands make a note he's not Cbetting like a normal reg.

Lets talk about your range. A delayed Cbet on this board looks kind of weak so its very possible he's floating your rais because he thinks you are just blufraising the turn. And he could be raising the river with the same assumption
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Old 10-06-2012, 08:43 AM   #282
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Re: Being a 1000NL reg by the end of 2012 [STASIA42]

second hand: hes thight and hes raising 4x OTF! feels like a combodraw to me
I think 3betting flop (no hard turns to play this way) or calling flop is both fine (you will win less because fish will call flop with wide range resulting that you win less)
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Old 10-06-2012, 08:51 AM   #283
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Re: Being a 1000NL reg by the end of 2012 [STASIA42]

LOL @ that AA-hand

I thought his 4betcallingrange pre would be: 99+ AQ+, I would say something like valuebet river just not AI because all his hands in this range have showdownvalue but wont bet river if you check

then I watched results......
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Old 10-06-2012, 11:58 AM   #284
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Re: Being a 1000NL reg by the end of 2012 [STASIA42]

i think given tht turn is a king a checkraise with 55 is perfectly fine as he actually does have AK a decent bunch that will probably put in way more money that way and his giveups actually will bluff this card a bunch increasing ur profits. if turn is anything but A/K obv donk is std and perfectly fine

think if you call QT otf vs a checkraise on that board there just isnt a way you can check back a turn that luckily happens to be a brick or is there? seem outrageous to give all his draws that are basically always paying a free card
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Old 10-06-2012, 11:59 AM   #285
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Re: Being a 1000NL reg by the end of 2012 [STASIA42]

Quote:
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LOL @ that AA-hand

I thought his 4betcallingrange pre would be: 99+ AQ+, I would say something like valuebet river just not AI because all his hands in this range have showdownvalue but wont bet river if you check

then I watched results......
I'm actually quite upset with myself for giving him right pot odds all the way + his implied odds when he hits.. Should've just check-fold, it's not really a cooler when u shove 400bb on rivered flush.
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Old 10-06-2012, 12:01 PM   #286
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Re: Being a 1000NL reg by the end of 2012 [STASIA42]

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Originally Posted by blakkman08 View Post
i think given tht turn is a king a checkraise with 55 is perfectly fine as he actually does have AK a decent bunch that will probably put in way more money that way and his giveups actually will bluff this card a bunch increasing ur profits. if turn is anything but A/K obv donk is std and perfectly fine

think if you call QT otf vs a checkraise on that board there just isnt a way you can check back a turn that luckily happens to be a brick or is there? seem outrageous to give all his draws that are basically always paying a free card
not so sure his draws are paying turn bet... tight regs usually will continue with their "good enough" range, or just give up. If he's aggro then he might bluff-bet missed rivers after I check, so I do get more value in certain situations when I check behind. Again, prob always bet-call vs standard regs, and obv vs fish, but this was def a non-standard hand.
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Old 10-06-2012, 12:16 PM   #287
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Re: Being a 1000NL reg by the end of 2012 [STASIA42]

i think actually that you can underbet turn pretty effectively. bet like 35-40% pot. you basically know what his range is so you can play pretty perfectly on most rivers while he will spazz out a decent % of the time (more so than vs a halfpot+ bet) and will be proced in to draw way more frequently
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Old 10-06-2012, 02:53 PM   #288
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Re: Being a 1000NL reg by the end of 2012 [STASIA42]

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Originally Posted by blakkman08 View Post
i think actually that you can underbet turn pretty effectively. bet like 35-40% pot. you basically know what his range is so you can play pretty perfectly on most rivers while he will spazz out a decent % of the time (more so than vs a halfpot+ bet) and will be proced in to draw way more frequently
Betting smallish vs tight-regs will usually not induce a spaz, but will give him the correct odds to flat most of the range, and fold river when un-improved.

Generally speaking it's usually not the best move to give direct odds on wet boards...
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Old 10-06-2012, 03:16 PM   #289
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Re: Being a 1000NL reg by the end of 2012 [STASIA42]

well firstly we have to think about the hands villain can spazz with and Qx very well could overprotect and ship putting you on a draw. as for betting small on wet boards vs drawy ranges- i do agree but if you do the math betting anything less than 80% of the pot does give all of villain's combodraws direct odds (to not give KJ direct odds you would need to bet >106% of the pot on the turn) so we basically have to think what the best move is in terms of getting the most profit out of that situation. i think if we bet BIG all nondrawy hands (ie QJ Q9 QK possibly even) might fold while the monsterdraws are still getting their lolodds and then we re left with 33 and TT crushing our soul with a checkraise. i think if we bet about half pot or less, Qx may well spazz overprotects, draws could spazz thinking you floated them and are trying to take it away cheaply/put u on weak draw/weak made hand sensing FE or they call. now the issue at hand is that of those monsterdraws theres only about 4 combos while Qx that we should probably be focussing on is at least 16 combos possibly even more than 20. i think we should either go really really big or bet less than half pot. i think a medium bet has the least benefits
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Old 10-06-2012, 03:22 PM   #290
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Re: Being a 1000NL reg by the end of 2012 [STASIA42]

just gonna say that as a tricky person i will often check back flop with 89cc or 89o vs good aggro regs
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Old 10-06-2012, 11:44 PM   #291
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Re: Being a 1000NL reg by the end of 2012 [STASIA42]

Tx for the replies guys, my conclusion from both of these hands is to follow my reads, in both hands I made the bet with the intention to fold to a raise, and both times ended up calling...

55 hand villain had QQ

QT hand villain had 33
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Old 10-06-2012, 11:47 PM   #292
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Re: Being a 1000NL reg by the end of 2012 [STASIA42]

Couple of hands from Crazy-Saturday..

Hand 1: Vs and agrro-reg

PokerStars - $2 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 5 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 3

BTN: $221.57
SB: $218.58
BB: $203.00
UTG: $296.83
Hero (CO): $200.00

SB posts SB $1.00, BB posts BB $2.00

Pre Flop: ($3.00) Hero has Q Q

fold, Hero raises to $4.40, BTN raises to $14.80, SB raises to $38.00, fold, Hero calls $33.60, fold

Flop: ($92.80, 2 players) 2 4 Q
SB checks, Hero checks

Turn: ($92.80, 2 players) 5
SB checks, Hero bets $38.60, SB raises to $180.58 and is all-in, Hero calls $123.40 and is all-in

River: ($416.80, 2 players) 3

Spoiler:


-----------------------------------------------------

Hand 2: Vs a fish

PokerStars - $2 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 5 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 3

BB: $89.24
UTG: $223.08
CO: $203.00
Hero (BTN): $200.00
SB: $258.77

SB posts SB $1.00, BB posts BB $2.00

Pre Flop: ($3.00) Hero has 9 K

fold, fold, Hero raises to $4.40, SB calls $3.40, BB calls $2.40

Flop: ($13.20, 3 players) K K Q
SB checks, BB checks, Hero checks

Turn: ($13.20, 3 players) K
SB bets $10.00, fold, Hero raises to $30.54, SB calls $20.54

River: ($74.28, 2 players) 4
SB bets $12.00, Hero raises to $165.06 and is all-in, SB calls $153.06

Spoiler:


-----------------------------------------------------

Hand 3: Vs another agrro-reg

PokerStars - $2 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 3

UTG: $191.00
MP: $200.00
CO: $225.58
Hero (BTN): $250.73
SB: $200.00
BB: $270.62

SB posts SB $1.00, BB posts BB $2.00

Pre Flop: ($3.00) Hero has K Q

fold, fold, CO calls $2.00, Hero raises to $8.00, SB raises to $24.00, fold, fold, Hero calls $16.00

Flop: ($52.00, 2 players) 9 5 T
SB bets $32.00, Hero raises to $79.00, SB raises to $176.00 and is all-in, Hero calls $97.00

Turn: ($404.00, 2 players) A

River: ($404.00, 2 players) 7

Spoiler:


-----------------------------------------------------
And last LOLy hand...

PokerStars - $2 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 5 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 3

UTG: $610.09
Hero (CO): $214.92
BTN: $211.84
SB: $232.60
BB: $820.51

SB posts SB $1.00, BB posts BB $2.00

Pre Flop: ($3.00) Hero has K K

fold, Hero raises to $4.40, BTN raises to $14.00, SB raises to $30.00, BB calls $28.00, Hero raises to $214.92 and is all-in, fold, fold, BB calls $184.92

Flop: ($473.84, 2 players) T 3 T

Turn: ($473.84, 2 players) 8

River: ($473.84, 2 players) 5

Spoiler:
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Old 10-07-2012, 12:50 AM   #293
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Re: Being a 1000NL reg by the end of 2012 [STASIA42]

Just went through some of the pages. Some really weird hands innit . Don't want to reply to hands posted 3 or 4 pages ago - If you move up we might play each other alot on stars soon - GL
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Old 10-07-2012, 09:19 AM   #294
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Re: Being a 1000NL reg by the end of 2012 [STASIA42]

Quote:
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Just went through some of the pages. Some really weird hands innit . Don't want to reply to hands posted 3 or 4 pages ago - If you move up we might play each other alot on stars soon - GL
Would happily discuss hand from the past if u have some thoughts that weren't discussed previously..

What stakes do u play, played everything from 100nl to 1000nl in the last year.
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Old 10-07-2012, 09:29 AM   #295
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Re: Being a 1000NL reg by the end of 2012 [STASIA42]

Quote:
BB calls $184.92
Quote:
BB shows T 8
Not sure if serious. Surely he must've been drunk or a huge ******?
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Old 10-07-2012, 11:50 AM   #296
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Re: Being a 1000NL reg by the end of 2012 [STASIA42]

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Not sure if serious. Surely he must've been drunk or a huge ******?
I think he flatted for value vs my 22-77 shoving range after facing cold 3bet, cold 4bet, and a cold-flat to 4bet.
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Old 10-07-2012, 12:45 PM   #297
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Re: Being a 1000NL reg by the end of 2012 [STASIA42]

Quote:
Originally Posted by stasia4242 View Post
Hand 1: Aggression with position vs a solid reg, 200bb deep


PokerStars - $4 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 5 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 3

SB: $1,035.42
BB: $400.00
UTG: $732.62
Hero (CO): $766.96
BTN: $400.00

SB posts SB $2.00, BB posts BB $4.00

Pre Flop: ($6.00) Hero has 7 7

fold, Hero raises to $8.80, fold, SB raises to $35.00, fold, Hero calls $26.20

Flop: ($74.00, 2 players) 4 9 K
SB bets $44.00, Hero calls $44.00

Turn: ($162.00, 2 players) J
SB checks, Hero bets $108.70, SB calls $108.70

River: ($379.40, 2 players) Q
SB checks, Hero bets $233.49
Spoiler:


I believe reg's range of 3bet is somewhat tighter than usual, due to the 200bb deep situation, his standard range is 25-20, 14% 3bet vs LP.
Pre flop call is somewhat standard for set-mining this deep.
Flop is less standard but I felt that because of the deep situation I would be able to take down the pot enough times when he will "let-go" hand on turn/river.
Turn is a great card for my range, and not so good to his, thought that becomes reality after he checks (weakness) and calls my lowish bet (super-weakness).
River is another great card for me, and I pondered a while between shoving and "value betting", and decided that I might have in this spot some thin-value-hands that I might bet like 60% (KQ, KJ type of hands) + betting lower gives u better odds = bet and fold.

care to discuss the turn range wise? even if people might 3bet whatever junk in the pack i would never be able to think he doesnt have some combos that hit pretty much exactly this board, especially turn.

River is easy though as he doesnt bet.. but turn is kinda wicked

do you think there is just so much more combos in the top range with 4bets than 3bets, and therefore you feel safe here on turn in "only 3bet pot"?
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Old 10-07-2012, 02:44 PM   #298
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Re: Being a 1000NL reg by the end of 2012 [STASIA42]

Quote:
Originally Posted by rigaholicconfessio View Post
care to discuss the turn range wise? even if people might 3bet whatever junk in the pack i would never be able to think he doesnt have some combos that hit pretty much exactly this board, especially turn.

River is easy though as he doesnt bet.. but turn is kinda wicked

do you think there is just so much more combos in the top range with 4bets than 3bets, and therefore you feel safe here on turn in "only 3bet pot"?
IMO his cbet-flop range for "value" is somewhere around 44, 99+ , AK, AXdd.

On turn, I think most of his fd goes with another bet, or at least check-raise turn, so check-call turn will not usually be made flush.

So... by check-calling turn his range appears to be 44, 99, maybe-maybe some TT+ with one diamond although not likely, AK with Ad, maybe KQd (though I think he'll cbet it on turn).

From this range, river is a must-fold to his entire range IMO, including sets, top-pairs, and all other hands.

Generally speaking my flat pre+call flop+bet turn+"value" bet river range

>>

his 3bet pre+cbet flop+check-call turn + check river range

so a bet/shove here seems like the most profitable move, especially since by checking behind we almost never win at showdown.
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Old 10-07-2012, 02:53 PM   #299
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Re: Being a 1000NL reg by the end of 2012 [STASIA42]

Tkx a lot for that reply, akes sense, wanted to know how a top player thinks

I am halfway through reading this thread, very interesting and hoping to learn something, I am just a slightly winning player that is stuck with my game

So much winning hands when calling 3 barrels though , maybe you just win everything hehe ;P.. or manage to pick the right spots to call down :O
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Old 10-08-2012, 07:17 AM   #300
rigaholicconfessio
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Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 770
Re: Being a 1000NL reg by the end of 2012 [STASIA42]

Quote:
Originally Posted by stasia4242 View Post
two weird spots from today...

Hand 1: VS an agrro fish


PokerStars - $10 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 5 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 3

CO: $1,050.50
BTN: $2,358.32
Hero (SB): $3,060.24
BB: $1,594.00
UTG: $3,389.47

Hero posts SB $5.00, BB posts BB $10.00, CO posts ante $2.00, BTN posts ante $2.00, Hero posts ante $2.00, BB posts ante $2.00, UTG posts ante $2.00

Pre Flop: ($25.00) Hero has 7 7

fold, fold, BTN raises to $20.00, Hero calls $15.00, fold

Flop: ($60.00, 2 players) K 5 2
Hero checks, BTN bets $40.00, Hero calls $40.00

Turn: ($140.00, 2 players) 7
Hero checks, BTN bets $100.00, Hero raises to $398.94, BTN calls $298.94

River: ($937.88, 2 players) A
Hero checks, BTN bets $1,897.38 and is all-in, Hero calls $1,897.38


Thoughts about the line on the turn / river...?

LOVE this hand, you set it up perfectly with heart missing by river, did you have a river plan if heart comes? what do you think is best, and i guess we must assume that there is a chance that he hit it on river too.
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