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Old 11-11-2011, 11:02 AM   #201
DREAM333R
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Re: BEATING DAMN MICROS!!! Thats a goal i believe..

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Old 11-11-2011, 11:06 AM   #202
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Re: BEATING DAMN MICROS!!! Thats a goal i believe..

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Old 11-11-2011, 11:07 AM   #203
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Re: BEATING DAMN MICROS!!! Thats a goal i believe..

Ok, pros you tell me then, you call with a chance to split a pot and a chance to take a pot, or u shove and take pretty big pot already without the showdown? If it's an absurd play with mid pair and no decent kicker, then i am a loser.
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Old 11-11-2011, 11:08 AM   #204
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Re: BEATING DAMN MICROS!!! Thats a goal i believe..

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LOL
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Old 11-11-2011, 11:08 AM   #205
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Re: BEATING DAMN MICROS!!! Thats a goal i believe..

Stop trolling
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Old 11-11-2011, 11:14 AM   #206
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Re: BEATING DAMN MICROS!!! Thats a goal i believe..

If he was a calling station, that would be a good play. But you said he can fold.

You make him fold very few hands that beat you and he calls you with almost all his better hands. You really need to be absolutely sure of your reads on the river to make this shove +EV.
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Old 11-11-2011, 11:15 AM   #207
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Re: BEATING DAMN MICROS!!! Thats a goal i believe..

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WOW lucky me damn, i put him on JJ in this hand, couldnt even think he got AA, lucky river...
You should never put a villain on any ONE specific hand. Instead put him on a range of hands and see how you do vs that range.

Start with all of villains action preflop and them remove cards from his range as you gather certain information.

Here is how I would break down this hand. You don't give villains stats, so I would give an unknown opening range in CO around 27% of hands give or take.

22+,A2s+,K6s+,Q8s+,J8s+,T8s+,A7o+,K9o+,QTo+,JTo

You 3 bet from the SB and villain calls. This removes a ton of cards from his range, but also leaves ALOT more than just JJ. His 3 bet calling range in position can still be very wide. Lets say this villain is somewhere between a reg and a fish and will call a 3 bet IP speculating a lot. You also cannot remove monsters from his range either as many players will just flat AA, KK, AKs, QQ here. This depends on player types. Nits will 4bet all day, while a ton of fish will flat. Anyone in between tend to mix up how they play monsters to 3 bets in position.

So now we have a speculating range of 22+,ATs+,KJs+,AQo+,KQo. Not uncommon at 5NL and not just JJ. This is also not a solid concrete range as it is impossible to know that for sure. Many players fold 22-88. Many players call with 54s-TJs, etc, etc. But there still are many cards you can safely remove from his opening range. (All Ace junk, King junk, A2s-A8s, K6s-K9s, etc, etc)


The flop comes 7QQ

You lead 1.17 and villain calls. Now whats villains range and how do you do against it? What cards can you safely remove from his range and what cards stay?

Last edited by evagaba; 11-11-2011 at 11:33 AM.
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Old 11-11-2011, 11:18 AM   #208
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What range did you put him on pre? Or do you just put him on 1 hand all the time?
You have sd value after river. What hands do you expect him to fold? What hands do you expect him to lead out the river with a 1/4 pot bet that he will always fold to a raise.


Edit: didn't mean to be redundant from the post above. Was getting to that point. I'm in a class right now and didn't see it in time
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Old 11-11-2011, 11:19 AM   #209
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Re: BEATING DAMN MICROS!!! Thats a goal i believe..

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Ok, pros you tell me then, you call with a chance to split a pot and a chance to take a pot, or u shove and take pretty big pot already without the showdown? If it's an absurd play with mid pair and no decent kicker, then i am a loser.
So people come in this thread to help and you take this attitude? You don't deserve anyone's ****ing help.
Here's a little bit of advice for you; The sooner you realise you are terrible (as am I) and stop making up bull**** scenarios to defend your plays then you'll start improving.

I was asking those questions because I hoped you would think to yourself "maybe I did play this wrongly?" and dissect the hand. That is the formula to success, not asking people for short-fire answers to situations they know very little about.
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Old 11-11-2011, 11:23 AM   #210
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Re: BEATING DAMN MICROS!!! Thats a goal i believe..

We are not pros. But you are obviously posting here because you've had trouble winning in the past and are trying again. We can all learn together, from each other. But you need to be a little more receptive to feedback. We won't always agree. Which is why we won't all always win the same as each other. Its all about learning and enjoying the game and making the optimal plays.
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Old 11-11-2011, 11:30 AM   #211
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Re: BEATING DAMN MICROS!!! Thats a goal i believe..

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Originally Posted by MrM27 View Post
We are not pros. But you are obviously posting here because you've had trouble winning in the past and are trying again. We can all learn together, from each other. But you need to be a little more receptive to feedback. We won't always agree. Which is why we won't all always win the same as each other. Its all about learning and enjoying the game and making the optimal plays.
+1

Even Tom Dwan makes mistakes. (Not many, but he does).
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Old 11-11-2011, 11:37 AM   #212
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Re: BEATING DAMN MICROS!!! Thats a goal i believe..

MicroFGators is not listening to your advice. I read the first page and a half then decided thread was most likely a huge level.
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Old 11-11-2011, 11:39 AM   #213
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Re: BEATING DAMN MICROS!!! Thats a goal i believe..

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So people come in this thread to help and you take this attitude? You don't deserve anyone's ****ing help.
Here's a little bit of advice for you; The sooner you realise you are terrible (as am I) and stop making up bull**** scenarios to defend your plays then you'll start improving.

I was asking those questions because I hoped you would think to yourself "maybe I did play this wrongly?" and dissect the hand. That is the formula to success, not asking people for short-fire answers to situations they know very little about.
You said it was absurd play ok, and i am disagree with you absolutly ok. I dont deserve comments like you do, i was answering your questions and if you read again above what i said u might agree in some point, and you u said it was absurd play with mid pair and no real kicker, ok just call then and lose to AJ, split the pot, or win the pot with still a good chance, i played that way and it was best thing to do on the river, shove with that hand!!! About defending my way of play, i actually do this in this particular hand, and it was perfect play, if you wanna go to the showdown with mid pair and no kicker it's opt to u my friend, but to me this is the exact situation of absurd play, you wanna take the pot or you wanna gamble with the weak call, or if you think of reraise, like i did then it's damn all in, look at the pot/stack sizes!
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Old 11-11-2011, 11:44 AM   #214
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Re: BEATING DAMN MICROS!!! Thats a goal i believe..

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Originally Posted by MrM27 View Post
We are not pros. But you are obviously posting here because you've had trouble winning in the past and are trying again. We can all learn together, from each other. But you need to be a little more receptive to feedback. We won't always agree. Which is why we won't all always win the same as each other. Its all about learning and enjoying the game and making the optimal plays.
I am absolutly agree with you. And when someone telling me "absurd" play without thinking carefully on the hands, pot, stack and reading my answers i call this person a pro, because he is a pro and i am not, with absurd play.
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Old 11-11-2011, 11:45 AM   #215
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Re: BEATING DAMN MICROS!!! Thats a goal i believe..

Not to sure your argument is very compelling. So are you saying he can never have a king or J9? Can you please address the questions asked of you regarding ranges.
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Old 11-11-2011, 11:47 AM   #216
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Re: BEATING DAMN MICROS!!! Thats a goal i believe..

Ok... let's try this. Do you expect worse hands to call this shove?
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Old 11-11-2011, 12:12 PM   #217
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Re: BEATING DAMN MICROS!!! Thats a goal i believe..

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Not to sure your argument is very compelling. So are you saying he can never have a king or J9? Can you please address the questions asked of you regarding ranges.
He might have a J, 1st lets start from the beginning, like i said he always does a donk bet, always means damn every time he call a raise 100% of the time, decent big donk bet. What i was thinking, he might had AJ AT TT QJ, ones again why i shoved, because 1. donk bet, 2. turn overbet, 3. weak river bet, in this scenario, he missed str8, he missed flush, he might still hold the QJ or AJ, i just called flop, turn.. and it looks more for him like trapping, i could call that river bet even coz i had good chance of winning the hand, but i had a chance to split, or lose it if he had AJ for example, no way he had J9 or K the way he played flop and turn, and then river just no way. He may also had nothing or low pair like 77 or A8, but i decided with mid pair, no decent kicker take the pot right away from him, if i had QJ or AJ in his place i would fold as well. The thingy is it wasnt an absurd play at's all, when you play against someone dont just look on cards, look on hud deeper sometimes. And why i said this cant be an absurd play? Because i played for a pot with specific villain, not for the rest of his stack with the hand i had, but i am also had a good chance to take it down anyway with that hand even if he calls. Hope this explains everything i tried to explain before.

Last edited by DREAM333R; 11-11-2011 at 12:18 PM.
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Old 11-11-2011, 12:17 PM   #218
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Re: BEATING DAMN MICROS!!! Thats a goal i believe..

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Ok... let's try this. Do you expect worse hands to call this shove?
Look above, i was expecting to take the pot, not worse hand to call me. If he call me with something like J7 i wouldnt mind. And why i just didnt call the river i explained several times.
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Old 11-11-2011, 12:19 PM   #219
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Re: BEATING DAMN MICROS!!! Thats a goal i believe..

I am sorry for my english as well, i am not english you see, so sometimes there could be some kind of mistakes and stuff.
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Old 11-11-2011, 12:27 PM   #220
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You said he was on a possible flush draw. Then you have to eliminate AJ from his range post flop. Looks like if you did put him on AJ he couldn't be on a flush draw. So not wanting to call the river because you don't want to split pot doesn't really apply here.

You're eliminating hands just because. And not re-evaluating your opponents range post flop.

And if your opponent donk bets flop 100 percent of the time, how can you possibly acquire any information from his donk bet since he "always" does it.
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Old 11-11-2011, 12:35 PM   #221
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Re: BEATING DAMN MICROS!!! Thats a goal i believe..

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Originally Posted by evagaba View Post
You should never put a villain on any ONE specific hand. Instead put him on a range of hands and see how you do vs that range.

Start with all of villains action preflop and them remove cards from his range as you gather certain information.

Here is how I would break down this hand. You don't give villains stats, so I would give an unknown opening range in CO around 27% of hands give or take.

22+,A2s+,K6s+,Q8s+,J8s+,T8s+,A7o+,K9o+,QTo+,JTo

You 3 bet from the SB and villain calls. This removes a ton of cards from his range, but also leaves ALOT more than just JJ. His 3 bet calling range in position can still be very wide. Lets say this villain is somewhere between a reg and a fish and will call a 3 bet IP speculating a lot. You also cannot remove monsters from his range either as many players will just flat AA, KK, AKs, QQ here. This depends on player types. Nits will 4bet all day, while a ton of fish will flat. Anyone in between tend to mix up how they play monsters to 3 bets in position.

So now we have a speculating range of 22+,ATs+,KJs+,AQo+,KQo. Not uncommon at 5NL and not just JJ. This is also not a solid concrete range as it is impossible to know that for sure. Many players fold 22-88. Many players call with 54s-TJs, etc, etc. But there still are many cards you can safely remove from his opening range. (All Ace junk, King junk, A2s-A8s, K6s-K9s, etc, etc)


The flop comes 7QQ

You lead 1.17 and villain calls. Now whats villains range and how do you do against it? What cards can you safely remove from his range and what cards stay?
OK, i dont think he would call with AQ KQ, so drop that Q, but still why not? So say if yes, he would raise the flop because me(fish) holding big pair would call, if he hold 77 he might just called, so let's see, turn 7, no way he got it, also no way he had QQ, so i put him on underpair, something like JJ, it is still a good hand because it's not likely i 3bet with Q, so he might also put me on KK or JJ or AK, i think thats why he bet the river big, and wow 3bet for the flush, when i saw flush i was sure it's my pot the way he played the flop and turn, but he still made a good bet like he got a house, so i put him exactly on JJ i couldnt even think he could have KK or AA because i 3bet him he should defo 4bet..
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Old 11-11-2011, 12:37 PM   #222
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Re: BEATING DAMN MICROS!!! Thats a goal i believe..

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You said he was on a possible flush draw. Then you have to eliminate AJ from his range post flop. Looks like if you did put him on AJ he couldn't be on a flush draw. So not wanting to call the river because you don't want to split pot doesn't really apply here.

You're eliminating hands just because. And not re-evaluating your opponents range post flop.

And if your opponent donk bets flop 100 percent of the time, how can you possibly acquire any information from his donk bet since he "always" does it.
Only form previous hands, basically, ok say he missed the flush draw why would he still bet that small amount on the river? Yeah boy, wasnt a flush draw then, could be TT or JT or QJ or AJ ... so splitting, losing a pot still apply, missed flush draw he should shove or check, but he still made some kind of funny bet, so. If he had a KJ he would bet bigger river for sure. So he still might fold J9, getting paranoid i got KJ...
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Old 11-11-2011, 12:44 PM   #223
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OK, i dont think he would call with AQ KQ, so drop that Q, but still why not? So say if yes, he would raise the flop because me(fish) holding big pair would call, if he hold 77 he might just called, so let's see, turn 7, no way he got it, also no way he had QQ, so i put him on underpair, something like JJ, it is still a good hand because it's not likely i 3bet with Q, so he might also put me on KK or JJ or AK, i think thats why he bet the river big, and wow 3bet for the flush, when i saw flush i was sure it's my pot the way he played the flop and turn, but he still made a good bet like he got a house, so i put him exactly on JJ i couldnt even think he could have KK or AA because i 3bet him he should defo 4bet..
Why wouldn't he call your raise pf in position with AQ? If I flopped trips on that board. I don't think me leading out is a bad idea
Is there a rule that he has to 3 or 4 bet AA or KK pf? Ever think that maybe your opponent knows this about you and might decide to play monsters like this against you.
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Old 11-11-2011, 12:48 PM   #224
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Only form previous hands, basically, ok say he missed the flush draw why would he still bet that small amount on the river? Yeah boy, wasnt a flush draw then, could be TT or JT or QJ or AJ ... so splitting, losing a pot still apply, missed flush draw he should shove or check, but he still made some kind of funny bet, so. If he had a KJ he would bet bigger river for sure. So he still might fold J9, getting paranoid i got KJ...
I give up. And exhausted trying to discuss this hand when you refuse to think you may be wrong. May I ask what is the purpose of you posting hands for people to see.
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Old 11-11-2011, 12:57 PM   #225
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Re: BEATING DAMN MICROS!!! Thats a goal i believe..

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I give up. And exhausted trying to discuss this hand when you refuse to think you may be wrong. May I ask what is the purpose of you posting hands for people to see.
I am not refuse, i might be wrong but i made right decision i think, because i took that pot.

The purpose of posting hands is to hear ppl saying you are wrong and i would say i am right, or ppl saying you made right decission but u lost, and i would say i wasnt right, thats why i lost. By doing this we get more info, we cannot come up with same stuff about playing hand and it's good, we can learn from each other, but what i didnt heard is your opinion on this hand, u only asked why i did this or that, i would like to hear how would you play this hand, but you can answer your opinion based on cards and bets only, no info on villain though, but anyway could be useful ..
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