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Old 11-11-2011, 01:02 PM   #226
Donkey111
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Re: BEATING DAMN MICROS!!! Thats a goal i believe..

I am willing to settle the war and move on:
If villain's range is exactly AJ,AT,TT,QJ then I agree that Hero should raise on the river with any two cards.
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Old 11-11-2011, 01:10 PM   #227
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DREAM333R View Post
I am not refuse, i might be wrong but i made right decision i think, because i took that pot.

The purpose of posting hands is to hear ppl saying you are wrong and i would say i am right, or ppl saying you made right decission but u lost, and i would say i wasnt right, thats why i lost. By doing this we get more info, we cannot come up with same stuff about playing hand and it's good, we can learn from each other, but what i didnt heard is your opinion on this hand, u only asked why i did this or that, i would like to hear how would you play this hand, but you can answer your opinion based on cards and bets only, no info on villain though, but anyway could be useful ..
The first part of your post is called being results oriented and will not work out in the long run.

So you're basically saying you're posting so you can argue? I don't think you are trying to learn from anyone, you're simply defending your palys and telling us why we are wrong. So you are contradicting yourself sir.

This specific hand I don't know if I would play it too different. Can he have something like AQ or 78 suited? I think maybe, but I would need to have a better read on my opponent to make my optimal play. Could I find a fold here, I could sometimes, but I might be going broke on the hand too.
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Old 11-11-2011, 01:56 PM   #228
DREAM333R
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Re: BEATING DAMN MICROS!!! Thats a goal i believe..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Donkey111 View Post
I am willing to settle the war and move on:
If villain's range is exactly AJ,AT,TT,QJ then I agree that Hero should raise on the river with any two cards.
At least it was looks like, the way he bets, i believe there was something with T, but no QT no KT, because of the river bet and based on alot of previous hands, forget that hand now it wasnt about the cards. Lets move on.

Let's discuss some other hands...

For example this one, would u fold this one or you call this one?


PokerStars - $0.05 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 3

BB: $5.84
Hero (UTG): $6.19
MP: $4.19
CO: $5.30
BTN: $2.54
SB: $5.13

SB posts SB $0.02, BB posts BB $0.05

Pre Flop: ($0.07) Hero has J J

Hero raises to $0.15, fold, fold, fold, SB raises to $0.40, fold, Hero calls $0.25

Flop: ($0.85, 2 players) 6 7 Q
SB bets $4.73 and is all-in, Hero calls $4.73

Turn: ($10.31, 2 players) 2

River: ($10.31, 2 players) 9

SB shows A K (High Card, Ace) (PreFlop 43%, Flop 25%, Turn 14%)
Hero shows J J (One Pair, Jacks) (PreFlop 57%, Flop 75%, Turn 86%)
Hero wins $9.80
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Old 11-11-2011, 01:59 PM   #229
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Re: BEATING DAMN MICROS!!! Thats a goal i believe..

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrM27 View Post
The first part of your post is called being results oriented and will not work out in the long run.

So you're basically saying you're posting so you can argue? I don't think you are trying to learn from anyone, you're simply defending your palys and telling us why we are wrong. So you are contradicting yourself sir.

This specific hand I don't know if I would play it too different. Can he have something like AQ or 78 suited? I think maybe, but I would need to have a better read on my opponent to make my optimal play. Could I find a fold here, I could sometimes, but I might be going broke on the hand too.
Argue is no good, it tilting a bit, lets be nice and discuss poker play without judging absurd play or pro play
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Old 11-11-2011, 03:30 PM   #230
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Re: BEATING DAMN MICROS!!! Thats a goal i believe..

Quote:
Originally Posted by DREAM333R View Post
OK, i dont think he would call with AQ KQ, so drop that Q, but still why not? So say if yes, he would raise the flop because me(fish) holding big pair would call, if he hold 77 he might just called, so let's see, turn 7, no way he got it, also no way he had QQ, so i put him on underpair, something like JJ, it is still a good hand because it's not likely i 3bet with Q, so he might also put me on KK or JJ or AK, i think thats why he bet the river big, and wow 3bet for the flush, when i saw flush i was sure it's my pot the way he played the flop and turn, but he still made a good bet like he got a house, so i put him exactly on JJ i couldnt even think he could have KK or AA because i 3bet him he should defo 4bet..
It is very dangerous to assume that opponents play optimally thus making it dangerous to exclude hands that "you" think should be folding to 3 bets.

I ran a query on all my 6 max hands in HEM over the last 2 years. This allows me to see what villains are calling 3 Bets with over a decent sample. I only counted holdings where I had AA, AKs or AKo for card removal purposes. I also removed blind vs blind hands.

Most of these hands are 5-10NL, but there may be a few 25NL mixed in as that is what I was playing when Black Friday hit.

Hero = BB or SB
Hero hole cards = AA, AKo, AKs
Hero 3 Bet = true
Saw Flop = true
Saw Showdown = true

Here is what villains flatted with in position and number of times:

AA(1), AKs(3), AKo(12), AQs(3), AQo(5), AJo(1), ATo(1), A8s(1), A7s(1), A4s(1), A2o(1)

KK(2), KQs(3), KQo(5), KJo(2), KTs(1), KTo(1), K4s(1)

QQ(3), QJs(3), QJo(2), QTs(2), QTo(1), Q9s(1), Q8s(1), Q7s(3) <-wtf, Q5s(1)

JJ(7), JTo(1), J8s(2)

TT(5), T9s(1)

77(2), 79s(1), 76s(1), 66(1), 44(1), 36s(1)

Here is what I was 4 bet with and the number of times

AA(4), AKs(3), AKo(4), A6o(1), KK(2), QQ(4), JJ(1), J9o(1), TT(1), 55(1), 44(1), 33(1)

85 times I was flatted with villains holding 38 different combinations of hole cards.

30 times villain held at least one Ace.
30 times villain held at least one King.
33 times villain held at least one Queen. The most frequent card of all.

Compare that to 7 times they held exactly JJ.

This just shows you that you cannot completely disregard any holdings.

I just love filtering HEM and doing this kind of stuff. You learn so much.
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Old 11-11-2011, 03:41 PM   #231
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Re: BEATING DAMN MICROS!!! Thats a goal i believe..

Oh yeah those numbers means alot. To be honest this is 1st time i saw someone just called AA after a 3bet...
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Old 11-11-2011, 04:02 PM   #232
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Quote:
Originally Posted by evagaba View Post
It is very dangerous to assume that opponents play optimally thus making it dangerous to exclude hands that "you" think should be folding to 3 bets.

I ran a query on all my 6 max hands in HEM over the last 2 years. This allows me to see what villains are calling 3 Bets with over a decent sample. I only counted holdings where I had AA, AKs or AKo for card removal purposes. I also removed blind vs blind hands.

Most of these hands are 5-10NL, but there may be a few 25NL mixed in as that is what I was playing when Black Friday hit.

Hero = BB or SB
Hero hole cards = AA, AKo, AKs
Hero 3 Bet = true
Saw Flop = true
Saw Showdown = true

Here is what villains flatted with in position and number of times:

AA(1), AKs(3), AKo(12), AQs(3), AQo(5), AJo(1), ATo(1), A8s(1), A7s(1), A4s(1), A2o(1)

KK(2), KQs(3), KQo(5), KJo(2), KTs(1), KTo(1), K4s(1)

QQ(3), QJs(3), QJo(2), QTs(2), QTo(1), Q9s(1), Q8s(1), Q7s(3) <-wtf, Q5s(1)

JJ(7), JTo(1), J8s(2)

TT(5), T9s(1)

77(2), 79s(1), 76s(1), 66(1), 44(1), 36s(1)

Here is what I was 4 bet with and the number of times

AA(4), AKs(3), AKo(4), A6o(1), KK(2), QQ(4), JJ(1), J9o(1), TT(1), 55(1), 44(1), 33(1)

85 times I was flatted with villains holding 38 different combinations of hole cards.

30 times villain held at least one Ace.
30 times villain held at least one King.
33 times villain held at least one Queen. The most frequent card of all.

Compare that to 7 times they held exactly JJ.

This just shows you that you cannot completely disregard any holdings.

I just love filtering HEM and doing this kind of stuff. You learn so much.

Wow man. Excellent research. It puts ranges in so much better perspective.
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Old 11-11-2011, 04:45 PM   #233
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Re: BEATING DAMN MICROS!!! Thats a goal i believe..

I use PT3 only, is HEM alot better then PT3? Or it's the same basically and only diffrence is leak finder, i trialed HEM long time ago and cant even remeber it now to compare with PT3... I got not many hands to use with diffrent filtering, but did a bit like posted before about calling 3bet preflop profit and stuff like that i think like you said playing with software filtering diffrent stuff can help alot with your game, flatted Q7s, Q5s and 36s lol it's more like tournament play not cash
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Old 11-11-2011, 04:55 PM   #234
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Re: BEATING DAMN MICROS!!! Thats a goal i believe..

Quote:
Originally Posted by DREAM333R View Post
I use PT3 only, is HEM alot better then PT3? Or it's the same basically and only diffrence is leak finder, i trialed HEM long time ago and cant even remeber it now to compare with PT3... I got not many hands to use with diffrent filtering, but did a bit like posted before about calling 3bet preflop profit and stuff like that i think like you said playing with software filtering diffrent stuff can help alot with your game, flatted Q7s, Q5s and 36s lol it's more like tournament play not cash
From what I've heard, HEM is better for everything pretty much. Easier to do everything with HEM, Im switching over once trial period ends for PT3.

Also, Are you still making money from the BB? That in itself means that your running ridiculously hot as its near impossible to make money from the BB.

And are you still losing money from the Button?
That would be the biggest concern right now, It means your not using position to your advantage or your not using it to your advantage properly. I myself need to open up my preflop range on the button, but it also has to do a lot with Post flop play. Just something to look into.

Good Luck
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Old 11-11-2011, 05:13 PM   #235
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Re: BEATING DAMN MICROS!!! Thats a goal i believe..

Now lets look at when happens when WE have position on the villain. It changes everything.

Here is my filter

Hero = MP, CO, BUT
Hero hole cards = AA, AKo, AKs
Hero 3 Bet = true
Saw Flop = true
Last to act on flop = true
Saw Showdown = true

I excluded limp/callers. In most cases, there is an open and I 3 bet in position. Some of the time the original opener folded and a blind flatted. In any case, I have position throughout the hand.

Here are villains ranges OOP.

AKs(1), AKo(4), AJs(2), AJo(2), ATo(1), A5s(1), A5s(1)

KK(1), KQs(1), KQo(1), KJs(3), KJo(3), KTs(1), K7s(1), K7o(1)

QQ(3), QJs(2), QTs(1), Q9s(1)

JJ(5), JTo(1)

TT(5), T9o(1), T8s(2)

99(5), 98s(1), 94s(1)

87s(1), 86s(1),

77(2), 66(2), 65s(1), 55(2), 52s(1), 44(2), 22(1)

65 times I 3bet and was called with 38 different hole card combinations.

7 times villain held at least 1 Ace
17 times villain held at least 1 King
9 times villain held at least 1 Queen

AQ all but disappears from my sample and this is over 200,000 hands.

28 times out of 65 times villain held a pocket pair. Also note the suited connectors go up as well.

I was 4 bet with

AA(6), AKs(6), AQs(1), AQo(1), AJs(1), AJo(1)

KK(7), KJo(1)

QQ(3), QJs(1)

JJ(1), TT(1)


I can't really answer is HEM is better than PT3 or not. I have only used HEM.
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Old 11-11-2011, 06:09 PM   #236
DREAM333R
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Re: BEATING DAMN MICROS!!! Thats a goal i believe..

Quote:
Originally Posted by younguns87 View Post
From what I've heard, HEM is better for everything pretty much. Easier to do everything with HEM, Im switching over once trial period ends for PT3.

Also, Are you still making money from the BB? That in itself means that your running ridiculously hot as its near impossible to make money from the BB.

And are you still losing money from the Button?
That would be the biggest concern right now, It means your not using position to your advantage or your not using it to your advantage properly. I myself need to open up my preflop range on the button, but it also has to do a lot with Post flop play. Just something to look into.

Good Luck
Here is the screenshot so far just over 10k hands, compare to one before UTG drops though, BB drops, BTN up, SB up.. favorite = MP

Uploaded with ImageShack.us
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Old 11-11-2011, 06:20 PM   #237
DREAM333R
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Re: BEATING DAMN MICROS!!! Thats a goal i believe..

Quote:
Originally Posted by evagaba View Post
Now lets look at when happens when WE have position on the villain. It changes everything.

Here is my filter

Hero = MP, CO, BUT
Hero hole cards = AA, AKo, AKs
Hero 3 Bet = true
Saw Flop = true
Last to act on flop = true
Saw Showdown = true

I excluded limp/callers. In most cases, there is an open and I 3 bet in position. Some of the time the original opener folded and a blind flatted. In any case, I have position throughout the hand.

Here are villains ranges OOP.

AKs(1), AKo(4), AJs(2), AJo(2), ATo(1), A5s(1), A5s(1)

KK(1), KQs(1), KQo(1), KJs(3), KJo(3), KTs(1), K7s(1), K7o(1)

QQ(3), QJs(2), QTs(1), Q9s(1)

JJ(5), JTo(1)

TT(5), T9o(1), T8s(2)

99(5), 98s(1), 94s(1)

87s(1), 86s(1),

77(2), 66(2), 65s(1), 55(2), 52s(1), 44(2), 22(1)

65 times I 3bet and was called with 38 different hole card combinations.

7 times villain held at least 1 Ace
17 times villain held at least 1 King
9 times villain held at least 1 Queen

AQ all but disappears from my sample and this is over 200,000 hands.

28 times out of 65 times villain held a pocket pair. Also note the suited connectors go up as well.

I was 4 bet with

AA(6), AKs(6), AQs(1), AQo(1), AJs(1), AJo(1)

KK(7), KJo(1)

QQ(3), QJs(1)

JJ(1), TT(1)


I can't really answer is HEM is better than PT3 or not. I have only used HEM.
So basically you cant really tell what hand they call your 3bet.. But nearly half of them was pockets ...
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Old 11-12-2011, 04:09 AM   #238
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Originally Posted by DREAM333R View Post
Even with any pocket pair? The thingy is if you put your opponent on AK or AA KK QQ JJ depends on his 3bet %, so if you hit your set you are more likely to double up for an extra 5bb.
That depends on the villian and board texture and its going to be harder to get paid off when your out of position. Also you're not going to hit a set that often and cooler the viilain to stack him. What are you going to do when the flop comes Axx or Kxx and your sitting there with your pocket fours? Or pocket JJs? Turn into a call station? And checking and folding/ playing fit and fold IS going to create so much dead money fo your opponants because you will be doing it so often

If a Good agro player notices you play that way he might adjust by three betting you widely and exploiting you post flop depending wich route you choose to go( Be a call station or playing fit and fold)

Then what? You go all bad aggressive and drop ten buy ins to him because you have nothing else to do?

Not to say I'm good agro but I would definately adjust if I noticed you calling three bets out of position

Last edited by ugthemc; 11-12-2011 at 04:18 AM.
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Old 11-12-2011, 09:00 AM   #239
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Re: BEATING DAMN MICROS!!! Thats a goal i believe..

What a fish i am, why not fold the flop bet str8 away:

PokerStars - $0.05 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 3

UTG: $5.00
Hero (MP): $5.02
CO: $7.98
BTN: $12.83
SB: $9.93
BB: $5.00

SB posts SB $0.02, BB posts BB $0.05

Pre Flop: ($0.07) Hero has K A

fold, Hero raises to $0.15, fold, BTN calls $0.15, fold, BB raises to $0.40, Hero calls $0.25, BTN calls $0.25

Flop: ($1.22, 3 players) 4 T 2
BB bets $0.58, Hero calls $0.58, fold

Turn: ($2.38, 2 players) Q
BB bets $4.02 and is all-in, fold

BB wins $2.27
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Old 11-12-2011, 10:36 AM   #240
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Re: BEATING DAMN MICROS!!! Thats a goal i believe..

Now this is fun...

PokerStars - $0.05 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 4 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 3

BTN: $6.05
Hero (SB): $5.18
BB: $8.99
UTG: $5.57

Hero posts SB $0.02, BB posts BB $0.05

Pre Flop: ($0.07) Hero has K K

fold, BTN raises to $0.20, Hero raises to $0.60, BB raises to $8.99 and is all-in, BTN calls $5.85 and is all-in, Hero calls $4.58 and is all-in

Flop: ($17.28, 3 players) T Q 3

Turn: ($17.28, 3 players) 4

River: ($17.28, 3 players) 3

BB shows K K (Two Pair, Kings and Threes) (PreFlop 3%, Flop 1%, Turn 0%)
BTN shows A A (Two Pair, Aces and Threes) (PreFlop 96%, Flop 97%, Turn 100%)
Hero shows K K (Two Pair, Kings and Threes) (PreFlop 1%, Flop 1%, Turn 0%)
BTN wins $16.42
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Old 11-12-2011, 10:49 AM   #241
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Originally Posted by ved View Post
oh, and 40 buy ins for 10 nl is good, i play like 10 k hands a day and let me tell you that 15 buy ins downswing its not unusual, giving that at our level we tilt like f uck and we are kinda bad players also so tilt + bad play + variance - huge downswong
10 k hands a day wow
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Old 11-12-2011, 11:09 AM   #242
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Re: BEATING DAMN MICROS!!! Thats a goal i believe..

Quote:
Originally Posted by DREAM333R View Post
Now this is fun...

PokerStars - $0.05 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 4 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 3

BTN: $6.05
Hero (SB): $5.18
BB: $8.99
UTG: $5.57

Hero posts SB $0.02, BB posts BB $0.05

Pre Flop: ($0.07) Hero has K K

fold, BTN raises to $0.20, Hero raises to $0.60, BB raises to $8.99 and is all-in, BTN calls $5.85 and is all-in, Hero calls $4.58 and is all-in

Flop: ($17.28, 3 players) T Q 3

Turn: ($17.28, 3 players) 4

River: ($17.28, 3 players) 3

BB shows K K (Two Pair, Kings and Threes) (PreFlop 3%, Flop 1%, Turn 0%)
BTN shows A A (Two Pair, Aces and Threes) (PreFlop 96%, Flop 97%, Turn 100%)
Hero shows K K (Two Pair, Kings and Threes) (PreFlop 1%, Flop 1%, Turn 0%)
BTN wins $16.42
Now that sucks
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Old 11-12-2011, 11:32 AM   #243
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Re: BEATING DAMN MICROS!!! Thats a goal i believe..

Nah playing on weekends always sucks i am down 9 bi again, idiots 3bet me hard today...

PokerStars - $0.05 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 3

MP: $5.75
CO: $5.00
BTN: $5.00
SB: $1.35
BB: $4.93
Hero (UTG): $4.87

SB posts SB $0.02, BB posts BB $0.05

Pre Flop: ($0.07) Hero has Q A

Hero raises to $0.15, fold, fold, BTN raises to $0.40, fold, fold, Hero calls $0.25

Flop: ($0.87, 2 players) 2 A J
Hero checks, BTN bets $0.62, Hero calls $0.62

Turn: ($2.11, 2 players) K
Hero checks, BTN bets $1.50, Hero calls $1.50

River: ($5.11, 2 players) 3
Hero checks, BTN bets $2.48 and is all-in, Hero calls $2.35 and is all-in

BTN shows J K (Two Pair, Kings and Jacks) (PreFlop 41%, Flop 23%, Turn 73%)
Hero shows Q A (One Pair, Aces) (PreFlop 59%, Flop 77%, Turn 27%)
BTN wins $9.34


Later i showes $12.50 on him with AQ again and he had KK and i lost.. I didnt believe him really and it was right untill the turn, tilt nah again, i cant play properly, stupid calls, etc.
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Old 11-12-2011, 11:53 AM   #244
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Re: BEATING DAMN MICROS!!! Thats a goal i believe..

Quote:
Originally Posted by DREAM333R View Post
Nah playing on weekends always sucks i am down 9 bi again, idiots 3bet me hard today...

PokerStars - $0.05 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 6 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 3

MP: $5.75
CO: $5.00
BTN: $5.00
SB: $1.35
BB: $4.93
Hero (UTG): $4.87

SB posts SB $0.02, BB posts BB $0.05

Pre Flop: ($0.07) Hero has Q A

Hero raises to $0.15, fold, fold, BTN raises to $0.40, fold, fold, Hero calls $0.25

Flop: ($0.87, 2 players) 2 A J
Hero checks, BTN bets $0.62, Hero calls $0.62

Turn: ($2.11, 2 players) K
Hero checks, BTN bets $1.50, Hero calls $1.50

River: ($5.11, 2 players) 3
Hero checks, BTN bets $2.48 and is all-in, Hero calls $2.35 and is all-in

BTN shows J K (Two Pair, Kings and Jacks) (PreFlop 41%, Flop 23%, Turn 73%)
Hero shows Q A (One Pair, Aces) (PreFlop 59%, Flop 77%, Turn 27%)
BTN wins $9.34


Later i showes $12.50 on him with AQ again and he had KK and i lost.. I didnt believe him really and it was right untill the turn, tilt nah again, i cant play properly, stupid calls, etc.
4bet him there, flatting a 3bet oop is a bit weak in 6-max no?
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Old 11-12-2011, 11:54 AM   #245
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Re: BEATING DAMN MICROS!!! Thats a goal i believe..

AKo hand - I would 4-bet (for value)
AQo hand - fold or 4-bet (as a bluff)

Calling 3-bet OOP will cost more and more as you move up.
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Old 11-12-2011, 11:58 AM   #246
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Re: BEATING DAMN MICROS!!! Thats a goal i believe..

PokerStars - $0.05 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 5 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 3

BB: $4.14
UTG: $5.46
Hero (CO): $4.86
BTN: $2.30
SB: $5.00

SB posts SB $0.02, BB posts BB $0.05

Pre Flop: ($0.07) Hero has A A

fold, Hero raises to $0.15, BTN calls $0.15, fold, fold

Flop: ($0.37, 2 players) K 7 2
Hero bets $0.27, BTN raises to $0.54, Hero raises to $4.71 and is all-in, BTN calls $1.61 and is all-in

Turn: ($4.67, 2 players) 2

River: ($4.67, 2 players) K

Hero shows A A (Two Pair, Aces and Kings) (PreFlop 93%, Flop 91%, Turn 95%)
BTN shows K A (Full House, Kings full of Twos) (PreFlop 7%, Flop 9%, Turn 5%)
BTN wins $4.44
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Old 11-12-2011, 12:03 PM   #247
ugthemc
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LostMySelf View Post
4bet him there, flatting a 3bet oop is a bit weak in 6-max no?
Did you even read what I wrote
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Old 11-12-2011, 12:04 PM   #248
DREAM333R
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Re: BEATING DAMN MICROS!!! Thats a goal i believe..

F*ck this, i dont understand why someone who 3bet with 25% chance preflop always hit damn nuts on turn or river, and why someone who calls with AK vs AA with 7% chance hit nuts as well, i got enough of this micros.

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Old 11-12-2011, 12:06 PM   #249
DREAM333R
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Re: BEATING DAMN MICROS!!! Thats a goal i believe..

Quote:
Originally Posted by ugthemc View Post
Did you even read what I wrote
I cant 4bet AQ, but i defo should have raised the flop, but fish defo calls or push on me and hit anyway, no matter even if 4bet it, sometimes it feels like they know they are going to hit and win, just incredible.
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Old 11-12-2011, 12:10 PM   #250
Donkey111
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Re: BEATING DAMN MICROS!!! Thats a goal i believe..

Quote:
Originally Posted by DREAM333R View Post
I cant 4bet AQ
Why not?


(Edit to my post earlier: 4-bet/call with AQ)
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