H1 I think fold flop is ok. Gonna be hard to call off with ace high if you don't hit. Once the ace hits I don't think you can do much else besides check/call.

H2 Snap call, but don't snap. Give it a little bit of time to call to not discourage him from bluffing in the future.

ty for the feedback.

yeah, it’s tough because the meta is going to play such a huge role (akin to live poker) in a short handed battle where stacks are 200BBs+ and both V’s are clicking buttons in their own (suboptimal) way.

I try to relay the necessary background though so that the reader can put themselves in my shoes for the spot.

Also, I have several other tables to focus on at the same time which detracts my attention and makes the decisions more clear in hindsight

Folding flop makes sense, although when you consider how likely V is to be clicking raise here with the history- odds are we’re doing well vs his holding. But we’ll under realize for sure given that we’re OOP and V can leverage the 250bb we both started the hand with

Pretty under buffered line. You have all the Kx going to the river while he jams on you. The main value raise the flop is 99. Most his strong Kx will check back the turn. You won't have naked 9x to the river. A9 seems to be a very goof bluff catcher.

Play deep oop you don't want to call a hands like this with little nuts potential.


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are you considering that it is 3 handed?

What will change? The ranges are the same.


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Why would you be range checking hand 2???

some would argue that it changes meta drastically

i wasn't arguing against you, just trying to understand your point of view and that required some more precise framing

Hand 1, flop bet/call seems a tad light OOP. At this stack depth I'd prefer making a healthier c-bet, and fold if it gets raised.

Hand 2, HATE HATE HATE. You're gonna own yourself and get shown T3 or K2 or A5 or 56 or who knows if you call this river ship. Just bet/3b flop with these dynamics, it's blind vs blind.

Are people defending T3 and K2 against 3! OOP? Even b vs b I feel like your ranging of V is a little suspect. I feel like if we’re beat there it’s mostly by sets/56.

I don't get that either. Are you thinking you'll save money when V has you beat?

ty for the feedback sir and welcome .

Enjoy your thread. It’s very clean and easy to read

Well, mr. superpoker is right in theory ranges wise however would agree with you rickroll here. I’ll be free styling in this situation in a lot of ways.

The meta plays a large role here all around when V is excited to play 1k+ pots with J high. I’ll want to (uncomfortably) bloat pots as much as I can being way ahead equity wide range v range.

V’s play is going to be a lot more “effective” 3 handed, especially given there is another player I want to be involved with. This means it’s almost essential I’ll need to 4b light a good amount and fight back in other ways in every street (which can be uncomfortable 200bb deep etc) etc imo

The showdown in H1 will provide some extra clarity, but I believe the background explains why as well.

I think V will be blasting off the way he did here (pot turn, jam river quite a bit).

While we will be best sometimes for sure, his bluff combos will far outweigh his value imo given the frequency at which he’ll be doing this. We’ve seen this exact line as a bluff more or less (4 high)

The value I lose on the flop, should be made up by this as his stack would be going in anyways on a lot of run outs. And vs his value, we likely get stacked anyways at least on brick-brick.

I’ll want to check back clubs, SD, etc that way regardless of what the turn is I’m protected and have the nuts or close to it.

ty for the feedback.

Yeah, definitely interesting to read the different perspectives, you could be right (just in general, I don’t think the results are too relevant)

I shared mine above though.

I don’t doubt it actually (the suited variety that is) but that would mean he has a ridiculous amount of bluffs as well that we know he’s capable of blasting off with.

Interesting to know how we should proceed though.

Thought both hands were a little unorthodox.

Hard to draw conclusions from H2 as a set is one of their natural value hands. I’d be surprised if the 10 improved them in any other away than 10xcc and K10

Results:
H1: Hero scoops vs J 6
H2: Hero calls and loses vs 3 3

that was fun

Couple hands

H1

1/2 online. 6m

LJ and BTN are both unknown, but seem reggy.

$200E

OTTH

Pre-flop: Hero RFI $6 HJ with A 10. BTN calls. SB 3b $26. Hero calls. BTN folds.

Flop ($60): 10 5 4. V bets $21. Hero calls.

Turn ($102): 10 5 4 9. V jams $153.

Hero?

H2

1/2 online. 6m

V is unknown, but seems recreational.

$200E.

OTTH

Pre-flop: V RFI CO $6 with K Q. V calls BTN. Blinds fold.

Flop ($15): K Q 10. Hero bets $12. V raises to $36. Hero calls.

Turn ($87): K Q 10 6. Hero checks. V bets $36. Hero calls.

Turn ($159): K Q 10 6 2.
Hero checks. V jams $122.

Hero?

Hands like this are good reminders as to why I check so much OOP, even vs recreational players. “Maximizing value” is only one of many considerations.

I like betting big when I do bet though, in part, as people don’t usually fold any piece on a board like this.

Let me know what you think. There’s no right/wrong answers

H1 Call, I'd fold pre, 4bet might be ok.
H2 Fold. I think with that turn sizing he's gonna have AJ or a pair and a jack and I'm not sure he continues with his pair plus draws. It's close though so I might call in real time. You're blocking his KJ and QJ bluffs and unblocking the nuts.

ATs is a pure call preflop against a 12bb 3bet so guessing it's a call in hand 1 preflop

If you are calling a pure value range on the flop {JJ-77,ATs,JTs} in hand 1 then you can fold the turn with ATs. If you have any floats though you have to call the turn

What about a 13bb 3bet?

H2 - River is a call in theory I am pretty sure.

Turn calling range {QQ+,TT,AKs,AJs,KTs+,QTs,J9s+,AKo,AJo,KTo+,QTo}

River calling range {KK-QQ,TT,AJs,KJs+,J9s,AJo,KJo}

You can probably overfold a bit on the river as an exploit because random 1/2 player who seems like a rec isn't going to be running it here too often. I'd fold as an exploit but be aware you should be calling in theory,

Not sure how much difference the extra bb or the button being in the pot makes

What about a 13bb 3bet?

Btw I know ATos is a better 4bet candidate and ATs is supposed to be a call. I still fold it preflop.

We broke the thread, I don't think I made another post was trying to edit the one above ^.

I'm sure in theory you should call both jams but in reality you get shown overpairs in H1 and straights in H2. But I would still call in both hands. H2 you beat value hands like KT and QT as well.

ATs is a fold in wizard, but HJ opens 2.5 bb and sb 3bets to 14 or 15 bb (50 or 500 nl).

Ty sir. Is it just me or are you opening up to the idea of mixing it up more (4b pre)?! I like this, maybe giving feedback is helping you as well (awesome)

Yeah, we want to 4b A10o, KJo type of hands when V over folds and A10s, KQs more so when they call as playability is better.

There are 3 times the amount of offsuit combos as suited combos though, which is why mixing is so important imo (preflop). Otherwise the frequencies would be way out of line or too nitty.

Ty sir.

The squeeze makes us want to play tighter w this hand class. We can fold A10s- a lot in this spot vs this sizing and config, but hearts where my most aggressive suit this session so I essentially rolled a call.

I reviewed this and went over it for a while with a friend. Pio likes a call and A10 is a “better” call than JJs for example, but even if you adjust Vs range slightly it becomes a punt to call off.

The issue would be that some V’s (regs too) are also way overbluffing so it works both ways. Defaulting to the passive play doesn’t really work in a spot like this imo which is why we’re approaching it the way we do (a discussion rather than “lol ez fold”).

Yeah, definitely. Highly unlikely they’re running it with some relevant blocker. More so just the spazz factor and over valuing hands.

I enjoy the MDF analysis as well. Think it’s really good vs all ins. As we don’t know what V is doing so approaching it this way is largely smart imo.

See above, appreciate the discussion.


Hi, welcome to the thread sir.

I’m mixing pre which can complicates things (in a good way). Just 100-75-50-25 though. Was 100 here.


Haha right on. Yeah, it’s certainly not a discipline question or anything (I don’t feel the need to see it in these spots), however V reasonably may think K10, Q10 is the nuts (trying to maximize v AA, AK for no reason).

Also, even if V isn’t pulling a sophisticated bluff, he could be spazzing out needing to win the pot. A few hands before this one another recreational on a different table x/r flop and blasted off with 33s for stacks (underpair). I haz a set, but if I had 2p it’d be a similar spot.

That’s one reason why I mark so many hands for review, regardless of win/lose. The results really don’t matter very often

All that said, folding should be best I think because they likely have all 16 combos of AJ pre. If they have either J9o or 10s as well as played we’re likely hemorrhaging. Hard to know.

Results:
H1: Hero tank folds, no showdown
H2: Hero tank calls, loses to AJo

Couple hands

H1

1/2 online. 6m

V is a nitty reg. Don't have any relevant notes vs this line.

$200E

OTTH

Pre-flop: Hero RFI $7 SB with K Q. V 3b BB $23. Hero calls.

Flop ($46): Q J 7. Hero checks. V bets $18. Hero cslls.

Turn ($82): Q J 7 6. Hero checks. V bets $39. Hero calls.

River ($160): Q J 7 6 4. Hero checks. V jams $120.

Hero?


H2

1/2 online. 6m

Both V's are recreational. Everyone else is a reg.

$215E.

OTTH

Pre-flop: LJ limps. SB completes. Hero checks with 6 5.

Flop ($6): 8 6 4. Checks around.

Turn ($6): 8 6 4 2. SB bets $4. Hero calls. LJ calls.

Turn ($18): 8 6 4 2 3. V continues $9. Hero raises to $36. LJ folds. V 3b $108.

Hero?

Let me know what you think. There’s no right/wrong answers

H1 cringe call

he's repping a hand you block fairly well, not having a club is great here

H2 flip a coin

hard to say, he's certainly not bluffing so the question is would he also do this with a set or two pair? rec is vague a description for me to know

fyi, the real reason for flipping a coin is in the act of doing so, you'll find yourself rooting for an outcome, so ignore the result and go with what you you were hoping coin would tell you - while doyle brunson was certainly figuring things out as he went along, a big part of super system was that your initial instinct is often more accurate than not, later on a number of studies have actually been done on this that showed it's indeed true, malcolm gladwell writes about it beautifully, sometimes you need to massage it a bit and do some hokey action like flipping a coin in order to better feel what you deep down want to do

that's what i'd do here, he's going to have 75 a lot, but it's also a great bluff spot and as a rec he could legit be betting two pair for value here

ty for the feedback

for H2, less so about V having worse for value and more so about spazz/how often V thinks 5x is the nuts imo

flipping a coin is outdated

www.random.org