I'm looking for some feedback on my WTSD% and W$@SD%.

Before anyone sh**s on me I did search this topic and couldn't find anything related to full ring games. If someone know of a good post related to this, I'd love to know where it is.

I play at NL400 and NL1000 at Ongame. My VPIP/PFR for the last 100k hands at each level are basically 12/8 (save the nitty comments ).

I've never paid much attention to my WTSD% and W$@SD%. Lately I've considered that I'm obviously not getting to the showdown enough though. My WTSD% and W$@SD% for NL1000 are 22.9/58.8 and at NL400 they're 22.2/59.3. My win rate for each of the two levels are 1ptBB/100 at NL1000 and 2.5ptBB/100 at NL400. Not terrible, but certainly not where I want them to be.

So in general I'm looking for comments on people's impression of the WTSD% and W$@SD% stats. I realize I should be getting to the showdown more, so I'm looking for some constructive thoughts as to how I should be looking to improve this. Perhaps adding that my showdown winnings are roughly $151,000 and my non-showdown winnings are actually -$113,000 over the 200k sample will help. It seems to me that my non-showdown winnings should be MUCH better and perhaps getting to the showdown more will help this number. I'm sure these numbers are pointing to a leak of not getting to the showdown enough. I'm looking for suggestions on where to start improving. Please excuse the "generalness" of the post. If anyone would like other stats I'd be happy to provide.

Cheers

Considering how few hands you play, you have a very low wtsd. Since we know nothing about how you play postflop, it's hard to give specifics. You obviously can be more aggressive postflop, but if done incorrectly, you will just be lowering your sd winnings and reducing you nsd losses.

Fly I think you are going backwards on this one. I'm pretty sure that wtsd is a % of hands that you play not hands that you are dealt. So like if I am a super nit who doesnt go for max value and only plays aces then my wtsd will be pretty high.

DFly and Ricky are the best posters on this forum.

That is the only input I have in regard to the topic at hand.

Fly - the amount of hands I play won't change my WTSD%. Remember, it's a percentage.

Ricky - If one was to only play Aces his WTSD would be low, but his W$@SD would be high. I think this is what you meant.

eazy - thanks... I guess lol

wtsd% is the percentage of times you go to the showdown after seeing a flop. So let's assume I see 15% of flops and my wtsd% is 20%. This would mean that of the 15 flops I see, I'm going to show down my hand 3 times (20% of 15). W$@SD% is the percentage of times you win money at the showdown.

Point is my W$@SD% of 59% is rather high compared to the average winning player. And my WTSD% of 22% is rather low.

What do you guys run at?

what i mean is that if you play a bunch of premium hands, you would expect to get to showdown more, no? since OP plays few hands, all things being equal, i would expect a higher wtsd for him. For example, if you only played AA, I would expect you to get to showdown a lot (assuming people don't catch on), but if you played 72o, I would almost never expect you to get to showdown. My wtsd is 22, but my vpip is 17 (so almost 50% higher than yours, and probably 50% more garbage hands which wouldn't necessarily make it to showdown). also, my post-flop nittiness has been well documented in this forum, so if I'm calling you a nit, that's carries a little extra weight. :-)

My W$SD is 60, which is pretty high. I need to bluff more. :-(

Unbelievable responses !!!! WTF?!!!



OP -

I don't think your WTSD% is low. Where do you get this from? Just look at your database and see who the biggest winners are at full ring on ongame. You'll see that your WTSD% is reasonable. Your W$SD is very high. It just means your W$SD graph is a beautiful 30 degrees heading upward, your Overall winnings graph is probably a beautiful 20 degrees heading upward, and your Won $ Without Showdown looks like shiiit and no way is it even close to positive.

Now if you are wondering why your winrate is less than 5 bb/100, well that's because you are a nit. Sorry, the plain facts. Open up the game my friend.

By the way, I am playing on Ongame now. Can't stand the software, about to shoot myself. So much bonuses though, and I am told I am a rakeback master so I am going to have to deal with the software.

loco - when you say 5bb/100 are you referring to ptBB/100 or big blinds/100? I noticed you used the lower case bb. 5bb would be 2.5BB which is reasonable and I run at that at NL400. I know there are those out there that may get close to 5BB/100 (10bb/100) but they're few and far between long term at NL400+. Aren't they??? Great goal to shoot for though

OK. Well perhaps I shouldn't be so concerned about these two stats as I should be about other things. I do realize I'm a nit and I've been working on that... so no offense taken. I actually played a 10/4 style for a long time, so the 12/8 is actually an improvement and I'm slowly opening up my game.

Yes, my non-showdown winnings are seemingly an absolute mess. I can imagine I'm losing value there. My overall aggression factor is 2.68 for the 200k sample so I think I'm generally aggressive enough. There's obviously other issues I have to look into though. Cbetting more I think, better selection of hands to dump earlier and ones I should perhaps be showing down more.

Like Fly said, you'd expect that given my tighter range that I'd be going to the showdown more... but perhaps not. I'm still trying to determine if this should be the case or not.

fwiw I still haven't read the OP

edit: ok umm i think fly was making a totally different comment. I must have been ******ed or something when I read it. lol @ my post. Still ahven't read the op

From my db, it looks like most good players have wtsd in the low to high 20s. But as previously mentioned, yours is not as high as it appears because you play fewer hands. I consider wtsd a secondary indicator - it's not something I care about much. But this combined with the slope of your nsd winnings are both indicating a lack of aggression in your game. There are lots of ways to increase aggression - pick the low hanging fruit first. It should be easy for you to be aggressive since most regs will have a full database of your nitty play, and they will not expect you to be stealing.

OP -

Yes, bb/100 is big blinds per 100. PtBB is old school and should not be used anymore.

Man if you are winning 5 bb/100 on ongame, I am really excited. Your game is above average at best. You pound well on the fish but the regulars torture you. I didn't even read the part where you were down $113K on nonshowdown hands, that is ridiculous. That has to be like a 45 degree angle downward!

You are going to have to do the research on how to work on your non-showdown hands. Looking at WTSD% and W$SD is probably not too helpful. I would help, but then people get on my case for helping out. So good luck on your search. It's all about training, training some more, and then training more. Watch Rocky and do like him.

p.s I can help if you live in Hungary and you have hot cousins and sisters. Think Anita Blonde.

loco - sorry dude, not from hungary and same for hot cousins and/or sisters. Wait! I mean, yes I live in hungary, my sisters are deadly hot, and my cousins are super easy... and hot as well. :-P

Non-Showdown winnings definitely need working on as well as other issues I'm sure. Your estimate af a 45 degree downward angle is a little drastic... it's more like a 30 degree angle. To be quite honest this is the first time I've really considered looking into specific aspects of my game that may be LEAKING. Hopefully this is the start of something better.

numbers are overrrated anyway.....play is so variable