CO (TAG, didn't get too out of line, but is capable of making some small moves) 3! to $75.
BTN (barely covers me; wild guy. at times he's super tight, other times he can be really loose and wild. just depends on the day and his mood, I guess. he had NOT been drinking this time) min raises to $150.
SB - I look down at two black 88sc, and I'm the effective stack with about $1,200 (may be off by a few hundred). I call, straddler calls, and CO calls.
Flop 63Q, dry board with 1 club. H x, straddler x, CO x, BTN bets $200:$600.
H calls, straddler and CO both fold fairly quickly.
turn Tc, bringing 2 clubs to the board and a gut shot straight.
H x, V now jams for about $700-800 into about $1,000 and barely covers me.
So, now it's back onto me and it's about $700 to win $1700. I tank for a long time and end up folding ultimately.
V takes it down without showing or giving away any info, even when asked repeatedly by other people at the table.
what would you have done?
Spoiler:
when V 4! min raised (I don't include the $10 straddle as another bet, so the CO's raise was 3! bet and BTN's bet was a 4!) from $75 to $150 after a straddle, min raise, and a cold call. I did not put him on a big hand. I think his range is mostly AK+, TT+, with low possibility for suited connectors and small/medium pairs. After all, CO's small raise of $75 after a straddle, min raise, and a cold call didn't exactly scream a monster hand.
if V had QQ in this spot against CO's $75 raise, I think he should've made it at least $200. but he only min raised it. the rest of the table were fairly deep, some $4-6K stacks, so perhaps he min clicked it to keep the pot fairly small?
anyway, the 1/3 pot sized bet of 200 into 600 on the dry flop after everyone checked to V who was on the button is a standard C-bet, and could be made with any of his holdings, including QQ for top set and also AK for 2 over cards.
turn is again Tc, bringing in gut straight draw if he did have AK, and also 2 clubs if he had some sort of flush draw (I do hold a single 8c blocker).
once he jams $700 into $1,000 after the turn card, I really had him at AK, according to his small min raise preflop and the 1/3 C-bet on the flop. but it could also mean he had a monster, like QQ. I didn't think he would do this with anything else like TT, JJ, maybe even AQ.
I tank for the longest time and was thinking to myself there are much more combinations of AK than there are of KK, QQ, JJ, etc. Also, if he had a set of QQs, would he jam the turn? also, when the CO folded his hand fairly quickly after 3! raise/calling preflop, I thought maybe he had like TT, or JJ, or maybe some suited broadway, perhaps including an Ace. if my assumption is true, that makes me believe that V is even more likely to hold AK, perhaps AKcc.
anyway, as stated, i tanked for a good 3-5 minutes and ultimately folded.
Fold pre. Even if you don't think the 4bettor has a big hand the 3bettor may very well have. 88s do not have the odds to set mine and if you don't hit a set, the hand is difficult to play.
wow. I didn't think I was out of line with the call, being that deep. btw, when you say i don't have pot odds to set mine......if we're $1700-1800 deep and he made it $150, if an 8 drops on the flop, don't I have implied odds to call if I hit and he goes all in at some point? that's not even considering the other 2 stacks who just called.
i can get down with the fold pre, but i feel like 88s are okay to call here. if they were 55s, 66s, etc., I could probably fold without much hesitation
unfortunately not. are you trolling me? i took the time to write that up in hopes of receiving at least some valuable feedback. i feel like the "fold pre" is a little overused
wow. I didn't think I was out of line with the call, being that deep. btw, when you say i don't have pot odds to set mine......if we're $1700-1800 deep and he made it $150, if an 8 drops on the flop, don't I have implied odds to call if I hit and he goes all in at some point? that's not even considering the other 2 stacks who just called.
i can get down with the fold pre, but i feel like 88s are okay to call here. if they were 55s, 66s, etc., I could probably fold without much hesitation
Okay, here's why you 88s are an automatic fold here (and in fact, there's essentially only one hand you should ever *just call* a cold 4-bet with, and that's AA--everything else you should either 5-bet jam or fold):
1) There are still four other players to act after you, and any of those four players could 5-bet jam. (Two of these players have already announced that they have very good hands: one guy raised UTG and another one 3-bet him! These are already very narrow ranges!)
2) You said you started the hand with a stack of $1200, so calling $150 preflop just to hit a set--even if you know for a fact you will always get to see a flop for that price, which you of course have absolutely no guarantee of whatsoever--means you'd essentially need to stack the 4-better every single time you hit a set for the preflop call to be profitable. But of course
2a) you WON'T get his stack EVERY time you flop a set. Sometimes he'll have Queens and you'll flop your set on an AK8 board. Or more troubling
2b) sometimes you'll get over-set, so you have Reverse Implied Odds to consider.
It's just a wildly, insanely, absurdly bad call preflop. The guy made a cold 4-bet! Unless you have Aces or Kings, you have no business in the pot--ever ever ever! It's not even close--you're just PISSING away money, it's an ENORMOUS leak. It's so bad it's why I thought you were just trolling us.
why can't we call pre with 88, when we're getting over 10:1 implied odds if we hit? odds of hitting a set are 8.5:1, right?
if we fold 88 here, what else are we folding? TTs? JJs? QQs? what does it matter between TT-QQs here if you put V on such a monster hand? even with JJ/QQ you're set mining, right? if you assume V is so strong here. and idk why you give so much credit to the 4! here. the $10 straddle is basically just another blind. the $20 min raise is a joke/probe. obviously had nothing strong there at all. and the $75 3! after a $10 straddler, a $20 raise, and a $20 call is hardly any indicator of something really strong. maybe 99+, AJo+. and then to top it off, a capable V only min raised that $75, so i'm not putting anyone on a monster
why can't we call pre with 88, when we're getting over 10:1 implied odds if we hit? odds of hitting a set are 8.5:1, right?
if we fold 88 here, what else are we folding? TTs? JJs? QQs? what does it matter between TT-QQs here if you put V on such a monster hand? even with JJ/QQ you're set mining, right? if you assume V is so strong here. and idk why you give so much credit to the 4! here. the $10 straddle is basically just another blind. the $20 min raise is a joke/probe. obviously had nothing strong there at all. and the $75 3! after a $10 straddler, a $20 raise, and a $20 call is hardly any indicator of something really strong. maybe 99+, AJo+. and then to top it off, a capable V only min raised that $75, so i'm not putting anyone on a monster
You realize to 88 99 is a monster. You are set mining. You are unlikely to be mining to the best set. Now it is possible your game is such that you feel comfortable with your analysis of why UTG min raise is a joke or a probe but understand in most games UTG calls/raises have a stronger range than your actual hand.
You realize to 88 99 is a monster. You are set mining. You are unlikely to be mining to the best set. Now it is possible your game is such that you feel comfortable with your analysis of why UTG min raise is a joke or a probe but understand in most games UTG calls/raises have a stronger range than your actual hand.
duly noted.
i do wish someone would actually talk about the hand as played instead of just dismissing and tossing the HH into "fold pre" basket.
not quite 6 weeks in yet since i've started playing the bigger game, but i'm holding my own for the most part. i'm neither ashamed or against moving down in stakes if/when I ever have to, but i'm doing fine as I am right now at the bigger game.
now as my advice for you: delete your account as you're not contributing anything productive to this thread (and most likely, this entire forum).
The other problem with the pre flop call here is that you are in the SB, which is the worst possible position, obviously. I don't really want to play anything from the SB, except for maybe completing in an unraised pot or 3 betting a steal raiser with a decent holding. Cold calling raises from the sb is generally considered not good (and this is cold calling after a 3 bet and a 4 bet, so it is doubly not good).
If you are going to set mine, then I think you've got to hit it or quit it, especially out of position like this. Villain can definitely have AA,KK,QQ,JJ,TT,AQ,KQ, all of which put you on a 2 outer. Calling a $200 dollar bet with a 2 outer and an 4% chance of improving is just throwing good money after bad and is getting you close to pot commitment. Taking a bet when there is a 96% chance that you will lose the bet is like throwing out money on the "Yo Eleven" in craps. It's generally considered a sucker bet. Your justification for the preflop call was set mining, but now that you are on the flop you are not set mining, you are trying to play 2nd pair as if it 'might be' the best hand, versus a pre flop 4 bettor.
You seem awfully defensive, man. You asked for advice.
wow. I didn't think I was out of line with the call, being that deep. btw, when you say i don't have pot odds to set mine......if we're $1700-1800 deep and he made it $150, if an 8 drops on the flop, don't I have implied odds to call if I hit and he goes all in at some point? that's not even considering the other 2 stacks who just called.
i can get down with the fold pre, but i feel like 88s are okay to call here. if they were 55s, 66s, etc., I could probably fold without much hesitation
Odds to set mine?
Then you called some more big bets without hitting a set.
Everyone, let's turn down the flaming in this thread.
OP, it will be extremely rare for the circumstances to be right to cold call a 4 bet in the SB with 88. If contemplating playing, you're going to want to 5 bet big rather than call. You'd have to be in a game where people are raising light and your image is such that everyone would think you have AA or KK only.
Calling only because you are set mining is a -EV play at all but the very weakest tables. Unless 3/5 is the smallest game, that's not likely to be the case. A flaw in your logic is that you are thinking that implied odd equals stack size+pot/bet size. Players aren't going to mindlessly stack off on every board.
So overall, that's why people are just telling you to fold preflop. It is the best option for this hand. As for the rest, the only reason to call on the flop is because you believe that the villain is going to either "one and done" when they miss or is going to put money in on the turn with air a majority of the time. Otherwise, you just fold. If your plan was to peel off a card, then you should know in advance what you were going to do on the turn if a blank shows up. You don't need 3-5 minutes to decide.
It is likely that not every one of your villains is thinking ahead like this, but some are at 3/5. While it could have been said better and more kindly, you are at a considerable disadvantage against those villains. Hence the advice to move down until you develop that skill.
Calling a cold 4-bet from the SB with 88 is *almost* as bad as calling a cold 4-bet from the SB with 72o. It’s an extremely obvious, automatic fold, not worthy of any comment whatsoever.
That you actually did call, and not just as a “YOLO LETS GAMBOOOOL” call, no, you actually think you made a good call, suggests you have severe, fundamental misunderstandings about poker.
If you would like you get better at poker, go back to the basics and study hard. No shame in that, we all start somewhere!
wow. I didn't think I was out of line with the call, being that deep. btw, when you say i don't have pot odds to set mine......if we're $1700-1800 deep and he made it $150, if an 8 drops on the flop, don't I have implied odds to call if I hit and he goes all in at some point? that's not even considering the other 2 stacks who just called.
Can you please clarify your stack size? That post talks about 1700-1800; the initial number in the OP is 1200; based on the HH it's 150 + 200 + 700 to 800 (and he covers you) = 1050 to 1150.
Assuming your stack is between 105 and 120 straddles, preflop should be a shove or fold. If ranges are fairly wide with a decent amount of dead money in the pot, I don't hate a shove. Folding should be the standard play though.
The flop is a fold because there are two players behind you left to act. So it's not only about BTN having you beat or not but also if one of the other two players has a queen.
