i stoploss 3-4 buyins, no stopwin

Stop-win is basically a form of stop-loss, psychologically.

So ya'll think a $1 rake increase is serious? How about a room with the same $5 rake that takes a $2 jackpot drop right at $10? Assuming you never hit one (which will be the case for the vast majority of players), it's even worse than a straight up $7 rake. Probably effectively an $8 or $9 rake. Basically disgusting Canadian rake. Now how much does THAT affect your win rate?

$1 is bad, $2 is worse, $3 is horrible...$8 is disgusting.

I mean if you are beating the game at $8, you are an awesome player! Great job!

I don’t have a specific stop loss but I leave when I feel the losses are affecting me too much.

I don't use a stop win, I generally decide ahead of time how long I plan to stay and then play it by ear. If I'm getting tired or the game is bad I leave, if the game is good then I stick around longer.

I don't have a fixed stop lose but I usually give up after 3 buy ins. Unless the game is particularly good or there is a whale to target I leave. If I'm losing that much I figure to be off my A game even if I have no realized it. I sometimes leave earlier if I know I'm off my A game.

I think a lot of this depends on your goals.

I'm a rec player (maybe 200 hours a year) that doesn't have to travel that far to play. I'm extremely unlikely to drop more than 3 buyins because I'd be playing awful at that point, and I'm playing for fun so trying to grind back to even is not fun for me.

I've never even considered a stop-win, although I suppose if I ran my stack up to 2k or so and there were more skilled deep stacks at the table I'd leave earlier then I planned.

I think you play at my poker room.

A $1 increase sucks, basically like $30 leaving the table every hour. The jackpot rakes suck too, but I think they bring in enough fishy players that it's worth it.

I play 2/5 with occasional 10 straddle, max buyin is 800 and my stop loss is 2.5 bi. (2k) I have no stop win I just play until a certain time. During the week when I have to get up for work at 630 am I leave 9pm at the latest even if the games are good. Fri and sat or when I have the following day off, I play until I get tired. If games are really good I'll play longer. Typically 14-16hrs is my cap unless I have a good spot at the table in relation to the big stacks or fun players.

thanks brother, means a lot.

I envy you. I just need to get over the legality and put some money in online. The live variance is just too much.

What are you worried about? What country/state do you live in?

Online variance may be lower but winrates are much lower also so the swings can be worse. Although you’re also playing way more hands so they probably wouldn’t last as long in real time.

WA. It's a felony here and I'm a square.

I just play until I don't feel like playing anymore which is usually within the window of 4-6hrs.

this tangent comes up every 3 months. max downswings/runbad/whatever are at least an order of magnitude greater than you think possible. if results are distributed normla/poisson/whatever it's just a fact there will be small fractions of the population at either end of the spectrum (ie: sun running thru entire live sample size or running into the death star in the abyss for seemingly ever).

as someone who has logged ~7000 hours i'll say that's a drop in the bucket of the "long run approaching EV" shtick. maybe its cuz i dont play full time anymore but i find these queries humorous like people looking for comfort that the variance boogeyman doesn't exist. the forum player pool turns over every couple years. either they're all popping out babies and moving on in life or the variance catches up and they realize they're running in place. which do you think it is?

I mean, no matter how badly you think you're running, it's possible to run worse, and out of a thousand "crushers" somebody has to be the one running -3 sigma.

It doesn't mean that a 3kBB buy-in downswing is something you should realistically expect to happen and over-prepare for it. It is unlikely to happen in your lifetime if you're a good winning player unless you're playing high stakes, online where win-rates are lower or uncapped buy-in games.

Exactly. The chance of such a downswing will happen to a good longterm winning player with small to no big leaks is so small its not worth using energy to worry for it to possibly happen.

JBuz is of course also correct about the playerpool gets turned over every 2 or 3 years, because people discover that they arent as good as they thought when variance catches up to them. Many rec players keep playing though year in and year out because they are addicted gamblers and cant stop playing. It still amazes me when i play with players i know for a fact have been losing for 10 years+ to the tune of $20K+ pr year.

As someone with kids, popping out babies is variance catching up with you

You’re failing to take into consideration the costs/activities those people would incur if they didn’t play poker.

The retired crowd specifically. This is there way to get out of the house. This is there entertainment. This is their social circle. They are receiving something for their $.

Pretty much every other activity for entertainment is a (-) dollar hit to their bank account. At least with poker, there is a possibility of a (+) return.

Plus they get free food and drinks.

Sure, maybe some percentage of the losing players is in the category youre describing. Even though $2K+ pr month to get out of the house seems pretty steep to me for people with a "normal" average income.

I suspect most of the steady losing players just turns the blindeye though, because as mentioned they are addicted gamblers who cant bring themself to stop playing.They dont track their losses/results, and they forget so so easily their big losing sessions and overall results from year to year. Imagine what a guy who have lost maybe $20-30K pr year every year for the last 10 years+ could have done instead with that amount of money. Think of what he could have saved up. Think of what he could have bought. Think of what he could have payed down on his depth. Playing cards/gambling is more important than anything else for those people, and its quite alot of them.

Both of those reasons are not mutually exclusive.

I don’t doubt that most losing players have an inflated idea of their skill and their win/loss numbers

One more reason to not talk strategy or win rates at the table. Especially win rates.

Worst part of talking strategy and WR isn't that it might help your opponents or that it might inspire them to learn, but rather that it is stale, FOS, and nobody really cares.

The higher the stake you go, the less people care. In 1/2, people still enjoy talking about poker because the game itself is not about winning, but rather creating an illusion that they are winners. Majority of these players can't wait to have a platform to showcase what they know about poker and why they are winners.

Majority of rec players play because they really have nothing better to do. I have over 5k hours with the weekday afternoon crowd, so I know these guys pretty well.

They are almost exclusively people who are just looking for social interaction. We talk about sports, vacations, current or past careers, and occasionally politics. Game itself is just an excuse for bunch of people to sit around. Funny thing is that this kind of environment actually becomes a deterrent to more serious players, because apparently when it comes to playing serious poker, you cannot also have fun and relax.

Weekends are just full of people who are looking for outlets, whether it's from their work or family obligations. There aren't that many options for most people to find outlets, especially the older generation with discretional income.

Being a serious grinder should treat game and casino selection like applying for a job. Look for time slots and crowd that are best suitable for your comfort level, or change your mindset to match the crowd if there are limited options.

Most people I see who are burned out from grinding are those who don't mesh well with the crowd. 30+ hours a week will not be easy if you don't like the people around you.

I play to win but I enjoy the social aspect and totally get how that can be an even bigger part of the game for people. I work in pretty specialized field where everyone has spent most of their life in school and then working in that field. At work I'm surrounded by a bunch of nerdy squares like me and it's nice to go play a game to meet completely different people. An one table I've sat with a real estate agent (nit), a longshoreman (random maniac), and a retired career soldier (calling station). Also I recently moved to a big metro area and I don't work with many people from the area so it's nice to meet random folks who have lived here longer and know more about local history and things to see and do.