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Old 12-19-2019, 01:32 PM   #24676
Tanqueray
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

I was going to guess WOMAD - nomadic woman. Thought it was a dating tip disguised as poker...or maybe to win in poker, one must first master the dating world.

It's deep...very deep.
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Old 12-19-2019, 01:37 PM   #24677
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I take it back. I suppose accurate read and proper adjustment would be sufficient to increase WR from 7bb to 9bb.

But I am sure we all already know that and applying in our game.

So if someone is already applying the secret to increasing WR by 2bb, then why is that person looking to increase from 7bb to 9bb?

Is it because it is complicated? Perhaps.
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Old 12-19-2019, 01:51 PM   #24678
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Regarding a whale's impact on winrate ... it kind of depends on what kind of whale and what kind of 'adjustments' the rest of the table is making.

If the whale is raising huge a lot and playing heads up pots against whoever decides to call him, or just jamming it in and basically playing showdowns, then a rec-grinder is probably not going to see too much of a bump. Most of them fold too much in those spots and wait for a top tier hand to get it in with. This is especially true if they have position on the whale as they get scared of people acting behind them. They're going to do better with the whale on their left so they can close the action.

If it's a situation where the whale makes it $20-30 preflop and the table goes 4-6 handed to the flop, then I'd expect most rec-grinders increase their WR more. Maybe to double or triple their base winrate. You basically end up playing larger pots than normal, but still get to see a street or two. So if they have the guts/stack/balls to play "normally" they'll see a decent bump.
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Old 12-19-2019, 02:49 PM   #24679
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

IME you can 3bet LAG whales wide and they'll call then overfold flops big time. It's pretty hilarious to watch. One guy over the course of a session folded the flop to my cbet many times and the last one it was like he woke up and said "wait, I've given you like $200 doing this!"
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Old 12-19-2019, 02:56 PM   #24680
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Originally Posted by johnnyBuz View Post
You short stack 2/5 so I doubt you are using your chips as WMD's.
Oh brother....

Anyway, I play most stakes up to 5/10 these days (NLHE and 5-card PLO), whichever game happens to look the best. If that means I sit at 1/3 with the max buy in (where I play, $500) with a couple known balugas, I do. It's important to play with these mythical creatures while you can because they don't normally last long in the poker ecosystem.

And I don't always ss 2/5 these days, just at average/below average tables. I always buy in deeper in good games.
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Old 12-19-2019, 03:03 PM   #24681
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

How are you finding the whales live. Are you getting up and watching games? Tipping floors? Got other reg buddies who will text you?
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Old 12-19-2019, 03:30 PM   #24682
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How are you finding the whales live. Are you getting up and watching games? Tipping floors? Got other reg buddies who will text you?
That's honestly what I should be doing. But unless my table is bad, I just don't wanna constantly creep every other table like a sex offender every session I play. I see a few regs do that and I think it's so bad for the games. Worse than constantly seat changing.
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Old 12-19-2019, 03:32 PM   #24683
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IME you can 3bet LAG whales wide and they'll call then overfold flops big time. It's pretty hilarious to watch. One guy over the course of a session folded the flop to my cbet many times and the last one it was like he woke up and said "wait, I've given you like $200 doing this!"
Deep sure. At 100 bb 1/3 games, if you do that sometimes they just shove over your cbet and you just light 1/3 of your stack on fire. At least deeper you can see a turn.

#20sasianproblems
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Old 12-19-2019, 04:10 PM   #24684
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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That's honestly what I should be doing. But unless my table is bad, I just don't wanna constantly creep every other table like a sex offender every session I play. I see a few regs do that and I think it's so bad for the games. Worse than constantly seat changing.
Shouldn't be that difficult. Get up and grab a water and peek over at the stacks and players as you walk by. If the game looks like good action then throw your name on the list.
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Old 12-19-2019, 04:10 PM   #24685
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It depends. In a small room/pool everyone knows the whales. In a home game we're actively inviting them and *everyone* knows them. We'd reserve the seat that one of them liked for a while even after the game started because he's so terrible at poker.

In a larger room/casino ... sometimes you can tell by the action/stacks at a given table. You'll often only get a few seconds to decide between a couple of open seats (if you're lucky enough to even had the option). So it's really handy to be able to tell really quickly.


We have coffee/snack stations in our local casinos, so I'll get up and walk over there, while scanning the room. I'll also stop by and chat with some of the other players that I know to get a read on the other tables. Not a big fan of just creeping on a random game.
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Old 12-19-2019, 04:23 PM   #24686
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Reminds me of one of the cringiest poker moments I've seen.

Early in my poker playing days I was playing the $40NL game at Oceans Eleven and there was this guy walking from table to table scanning all the games(all $40nl tables).

When he passed by my table the dealer says hi and asks how he's doing and he says, "Good, just rounding"

Rounders had just come out on video not too long before this lol.
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Old 12-19-2019, 05:12 PM   #24687
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Once you have played long enough in a particular poker room, you will learn who the whales are. Then you get a table change to play with them whenever you see them in the room. It’s a hunt.
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Old 12-19-2019, 05:24 PM   #24688
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A more effective tactic is developing the ability to tilt people. Average players become whales and everyone at the table are effected by it as well.

Earlier in my career, I was much better at doing it (also cared less about what people think).

Whales are hunted to near extinction and the remaining ones can sense how people perceive them and few would actually enjoy that vibe.

Solution is to feed the average fish some chemicals to fatten them.
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Old 12-19-2019, 05:56 PM   #24689
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Originally Posted by Tanqueray View Post
A more effective tactic is developing the ability to tilt people. Average players become whales and everyone at the table are effected by it as well.

Earlier in my career, I was much better at doing it (also cared less about what people think).

Whales are hunted to near extinction and the remaining ones can sense how people perceive them and few would actually enjoy that vibe.

Solution is to feed the average fish some chemicals to fatten them.
Very good point. In many of the high stakes games it works this way as well. Certain people on their A game might not be great for the game, but people know if they get tilted they play very bad and if your mental game is much stronger than people that are slightly better than you, it may be worth it to sit them for long sessions.
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Old 12-19-2019, 06:12 PM   #24690
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Very good point. In many of the high stakes games it works this way as well. Certain people on their A game might not be great for the game, but people know if they get tilted they play very bad and if your mental game is much stronger than people that are slightly better than you, it may be worth it to sit them for long sessions.
Psychological warfare is one tactic, but be warned - you will be absolutely despised.
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Old 12-19-2019, 06:18 PM   #24691
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Psychological warfare is one tactic, but be warned - you will be absolutely despised.
There are ways to tilt people without being Tony G.
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Old 12-19-2019, 06:50 PM   #24692
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Psychological warfare is one tactic, but be warned - you will be absolutely despised.
That's not really what I was getting at. I meant more along the lines of if you know a player who is very good, but once they get even one bad beat they go off the rails and dump 5 buy ins. That type of thing.

It also increases your implied odds somewhat when playing pots vs them.
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Old 12-19-2019, 07:14 PM   #24693
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That's not really what I was getting at. I meant more along the lines of if you know a player who is very good, but once they get even one bad beat they go off the rails and dump 5 buy ins. That type of thing.

It also increases your implied odds somewhat when playing pots vs them.
Being aware of and taking advantage of tilt in others is different from purposefully attempting to induce it (through slowrolling, verbal abuse, or what have you), as Tanqueray was suggesting he had done. Like you, I'm fine with the former, just not the latter.
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Old 12-19-2019, 07:30 PM   #24694
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I think slowrolling and verbal abuse should be in different buckets.
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Old 12-19-2019, 08:02 PM   #24695
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As I've gotten more serious about playing winning poker, I've gone from the talkative beer drinker to the silent headphone wearing douche who doesn't talk to anybody, and sometimes I'll do over-confident douchey actions to irk people even more like slamming a stack of chips down for a call and looking smugly at my opponent.

I hear a lot about people saying this demeanor pisses off the fish and they leave or switch tables, but IME that doesn't happen nearly as much as the fish wanting to get me extra because they dislike me. I find people are often more willing to play giant pots against me just to try to stack me, and occasionally they get to stack me and celebrate and half the tables is happy and "har har, **** this guy he finally loses." But I know I'm getting way the better end of the trade because they're making huge mistakes trying to get lucky against me.

Some guy earlier this week called an all-in turn bet with 3 to a flush on board holding just the deuce of that suit; sure it hit on the river and stacked my top 2pair, and with how proud and smug he was after and how he tried to needle me even though I could barely hear him through my music, I'm pretty sure he was making that call only against me specifically.

Being that unlikable anti-social guy definitely works in my favour. Psychological warfare can be subtle, not just Tony G.
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Old 12-19-2019, 08:25 PM   #24696
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As I've gotten more serious about playing winning poker, I've gone from the talkative beer drinker to the silent headphone wearing douche who doesn't talk to anybody, and sometimes I'll do over-confident douchey actions to irk people even more like slamming a stack of chips down for a call and looking smugly at my opponent.

I hear a lot about people saying this demeanor pisses off the fish and they leave or switch tables, but IME that doesn't happen nearly as much as the fish wanting to get me extra because they dislike me. I find people are often more willing to play giant pots against me just to try to stack me, and occasionally they get to stack me and celebrate and half the tables is happy and "har har, **** this guy he finally loses." But I know I'm getting way the better end of the trade because they're making huge mistakes trying to get lucky against me.

Some guy earlier this week called an all-in turn bet with 3 to a flush on board holding just the deuce of that suit; sure it hit on the river and stacked my top 2pair, and with how proud and smug he was after and how he tried to needle me even though I could barely hear him through my music, I'm pretty sure he was making that call only against me specifically.

Being that unlikable anti-social guy definitely works in my favour. Psychological warfare can be subtle, not just Tony G.
I find that people often dislike me as well, because I consistently win and they lose. That alone is often enough to tilt people and play back at me. I can't count the number of times I've GII in PLO with AA pre against some 40% underdog because he wanted to "stack the nit." I often will lose, but long term I am printing.

Same thing goes for short-stacking effectively. This strat pisses people off so much it's incredible. They think anyone who buys in short should be a loose-passive fish who VPIPs way too wide and when they encounter me, with a 3!% of about 85%, they get really annoyed that they can't VPIP their suited connectors as profitably anymore and go berserk when I sit a their table because I am absolutely terrible for their game.

I find that I, too, am much more likely to dislike anyone who has consistently beaten me in a game. (There aren't many out there, but I remember the few who have.)

Last edited by DumbosTrunk; 12-19-2019 at 08:33 PM.
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Old 12-19-2019, 08:57 PM   #24697
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Originally Posted by GuitarDean View Post
As I've gotten more serious about playing winning poker, I've gone from the talkative beer drinker to the silent headphone wearing douche who doesn't talk to anybody, and sometimes I'll do over-confident douchey actions to irk people even more like slamming a stack of chips down for a call and looking smugly at my opponent.

I hear a lot about people saying this demeanor pisses off the fish and they leave or switch tables, but IME that doesn't happen nearly as much as the fish wanting to get me extra because they dislike me. I find people are often more willing to play giant pots against me just to try to stack me, and occasionally they get to stack me and celebrate and half the tables is happy and "har har, **** this guy he finally loses." But I know I'm getting way the better end of the trade because they're making huge mistakes trying to get lucky against me.

Some guy earlier this week called an all-in turn bet with 3 to a flush on board holding just the deuce of that suit; sure it hit on the river and stacked my top 2pair, and with how proud and smug he was after and how he tried to needle me even though I could barely hear him through my music, I'm pretty sure he was making that call only against me specifically.

Being that unlikable anti-social guy definitely works in my favour. Psychological warfare can be subtle, not just Tony G.
But how less much do you enjoy poker when you're despised every time you play? Is the debatable extra hourly (and I'm saying debatable because it clearly hasn't been proven that it works long term) worth it? It's OK to care to an extent what people think of you. Not caring at all just makes you a sociopath.
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Old 12-19-2019, 09:15 PM   #24698
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FWIW, there are those who can tilt without pissing people off.

I was not suggesting negative behaviors such as slow rolling, but more like subtle trash talking to induce people to try harder to beat you. Something along that line...
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Old 12-19-2019, 09:38 PM   #24699
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This is even more of a derail. Please stick to the subjects of bankroll, winrates, and/or finances, and take tilt-inducing, mechanics, etc. to their proper places.

Also, please re-read the disclaimer you all agreed to when you came in to the thread. One person has earned an exile from this thread already.

Last edited by Garick; 12-19-2019 at 09:45 PM.
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Old 12-21-2019, 10:23 AM   #24700
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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This is even more of a derail. Please stick to the subjects of bankroll, winrates, and/or finances, and take tilt-inducing, mechanics, etc. to their proper places.

Also, please re-read the disclaimer you all agreed to when you came in to the thread. One person has earned an exile from this thread already.
The disclaimer I've clicked agree to probably over a thousand times now and not read once???
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