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Old 11-05-2019, 05:15 PM   #24526
rickroll
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

In one session today at a random airport casino in Korea there were over a dozen pots over 300bb

This game is particularly juicy, but nevertheless, this thread just helps reinforce how much Florida sucks

I have a bunch of family in Tampa, they don't come North because they think it's cold, we don't go to Florida because it's Florida
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Old 11-05-2019, 05:44 PM   #24527
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Originally Posted by DonkeyCopter View Post
I'm a rec and only get 200-250 hours a year playing once a week with a once a year trip to Vegas.
This was me last year, but this year I'm knocking on 400 hrs at the moment. Likely to finish just shy of 450 for the year may even hit that depending on how the holidays go.
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Old 11-05-2019, 06:04 PM   #24528
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Originally Posted by gobbledygeek View Post
Angrist, if you're not careful I'm going to catch you hours-wise!

I wonder what the average number of hours put in by a typical recreational player is? I only get ~550 hours a year, but fear I'm lagging well behind most other recreational players who play in my room. Although I guess if you "average" it out to include all the once-every-three-monthers it looks better.

GcluelessvolumenoobG


I picked up poker as a legit hobby again in the middle of 2016, so ~3.5 years ago. I have 1120 hours since then, so ~320 hours/year.

With that being said, every year has been more than the last.

2016: 125 hours from June 1-Dec 31
2017: 274 hours
2018: 336 hours
2019: 385 hours and counting

2020 I have my first Vegas trip planned since 2009, should rack up 40-70 hours in that alone. Goal for 2020 is 450 hours.
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Old 11-05-2019, 06:45 PM   #24529
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

I'm a pretty "serious" rec player in terms of volume. Used to go to the casino twice a week without fail for 6-8 hour sessions, switched to some of the charity rooms for shorter 3-4 x a week sessions, also with some home games in there. Rarely take more than a week off playing, at least until the last couple of months.

I started tracking as soon as I started playing live, and over the past decade have this for hourly volume:

2008 175.2 (Started in July)
2009 460.2
2010 617.3
2011 647.4
2012 561.9
2013 401.6 (Run up to Graduation/Defense)
2014 594.9
2015 547.6
2016 707.6
2017 630.3
2018 659.6
2019 309.4

I'd be shocked if I hit 400 this year. Next year should be significantly better with the way work and my other hobbies are looking.

This is probably on the high end for most recreational player's volumes. Unless you're playing 4 hours a night 5 nights a week because there's a card room down the street.
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Old 11-05-2019, 06:48 PM   #24530
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Originally Posted by rickroll View Post
In one session today at a random airport casino in Korea there were over a dozen pots over 300bb

This game is particularly juicy, but nevertheless, this thread just helps reinforce how much Florida sucks

I have a bunch of family in Tampa, they don't come North because they think it's cold, we don't go to Florida because it's Florida
People not from Florida talk about how soft they heard the games are. People who play in Florida know the real deal. The games aren't super tough aggro type games. There's not lots of 3 betting preflop and you wont be in lots of weird tough spots. You wont be sitting there wondering if your TT is good on a Q96 flop in a 3 bet pot when you get raised post flop. The games are tough in the sense that its hard to get paid off without coolering someone.

Now, I know lots of guys who ***** and moan about that but what Ive done is really learned when and how to bluff these nits. Its made my game better overall. These games turned me into a LAG and I do now get paid off much better than the ABC TAGs that moan and groan all day about the nits.

PS...4 hours today and there was one single pot where 2 guys got 80BBs+ into the pot.
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Old 11-07-2019, 10:43 AM   #24531
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Originally Posted by gobbledygeek View Post
If you're doing well in other aspects of your life, and poker has the *potential* to possibly derail that, then you'll really have to ask yourself whether the reward of playing poker (which should probably mostly be measured from a recreational social interaction viewpoint) is worth the risk (i.e. there might be other options that are better in this regards without the possible downside).



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Old 11-20-2019, 02:05 AM   #24532
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

If someone was making $50/hr at 2/5, do you think a T/20 game with 4 average pros, two crushers, and 2 average loose passive recs would be a more profitable game for them? Can we squeeze 3 bb/hr out of that kind of lineup?
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Old 11-20-2019, 02:34 AM   #24533
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I don't think it translates that linearly. Some people that can beat a certain 2/5 game even for a good amount don't do well when they move up. It really depends on the person and how well they are able to adjust. Some people's games are great for weaker opposition, but terrible in a tough game environment.
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Old 11-20-2019, 05:14 AM   #24534
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Originally Posted by Badreg2017 View Post
If someone was making $50/hr at 2/5, do you think a T/20 game with 4 average pros, two crushers, and 2 average loose passive recs would be a more profitable game for them? Can we squeeze 3 bb/hr out of that kind of lineup?
I could be naive here, but this sounds like a pretty apt description for most tables once you go above 1-2, it's certaintly the case out in Asia, if you sit down at lowest stakes in Asia you're dealing with at least 6+ players who would identify as a professional poker player

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I don't think it translates that linearly. Some people that can beat a certain 2/5 game even for a good amount don't do well when they move up. It really depends on the person and how well they are able to adjust. Some people's games are great for weaker opposition, but terrible in a tough game environment.
+1 I've seen a lot of guys who have highly tailored and exploitative strategies against the low stakes that utterly dominates those guys but when they move up in stakes and play competent players they get demolished because they are so accustomed to if x then y, followed by z and against tougher competition it's so transparent that ironically, those lower stakes donks that this guy beats up on would be more successful at the higher levels than the low stakes all star

last year this british guy who utterly dominated this weekly bar game would challenge everyone heads up as the tables were breaking because he was so confident. I always took him up on it and he got incredibly frustrated i always owned him heads up because his win rate was significantly higher than mine and he couldn't understand why he did so much better against the field than i did yet couldn't beat me

he simply didn't understand that his style was so incredibly transparent and lacked imagination or creativity, like he was so accustomed to people calling preflop regardless of sizing that he was never aware how easily I was able to narrow his hand range simply by his preflop sizings

a lot of success is villian specific and unless you have the awareness to understand how that biased your play at each level then you could struggle adapting to playing competent players
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Old 11-20-2019, 07:34 AM   #24535
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Well finally stating to get back on the grind. Running pretty well this month.
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Old 11-20-2019, 08:03 AM   #24536
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Grats, pony. What level(s)? And does it include you HU adventures, or is it all full-ring?
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Old 11-20-2019, 01:56 PM   #24537
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Grats, pony. What level(s)? And does it include you HU adventures, or is it all full-ring?
This is all 1/2. Full ring but I'd say (complete guess) 15ish of those hours are with 4-6 players. I have maybe 10 hours of 1/3 (plays more like a 1/3/5) where I ran pretty well too but those aren't in there. Try to keep my stats as separated as I can.
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Old 11-20-2019, 03:42 PM   #24538
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Originally Posted by Mr Spyutastic View Post
I don't think it translates that linearly. Some people that can beat a certain 2/5 game even for a good amount don't do well when they move up. It really depends on the person and how well they are able to adjust. Some people's games are great for weaker opposition, but terrible in a tough game environment.
This probably goes for most people, even top winning players. I mean, I don't play the 5/10 at my casino unless I see at least one or two recs sitting. What's the point of playing in a "tough," reg- and pro-infested line-up? IMO none, if your goal is to make $$ and not simply to challenge yourself. Maybe someone can disagree with me and point out incentives to play in these games. I just don't see them.

Sometimes I think the 5/10 regs are just passing money between themselves until a spot sits down.

Last edited by DumbosTrunk; 11-20-2019 at 03:49 PM.
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Old 11-20-2019, 04:32 PM   #24539
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Yeah it can seem like that. But I don't think it makes sense to have an attitude of "I don't need to know what it takes to play tougher games or higher limits because I'll always win enough here in 2/5."

Like there's no downside to put in the work.
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Old 11-20-2019, 04:36 PM   #24540
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Originally Posted by DumbosTrunk View Post
This probably goes for most people, even top winning players. I mean, I don't play the 5/10 at my casino unless I see at least one or two recs sitting. What's the point of playing in a "tough," reg- and pro-infested line-up? IMO none, if your goal is to make $$ and not simply to challenge yourself. Maybe someone can disagree with me and point out incentives to play in these games. I just don't see them.

Sometimes I think the 5/10 regs are just passing money between themselves until a spot sits down.
Well that’s where adapting comes in. You will probably be playing the higher game’s a lot different than the lower games. The reason to move up is to make more money obviously right? If you don’t think you have an edge over any of the recs then yeah you probably shouldn’t be playing. Just because it’s harder doesn’t mean it won’t be more profitable. Would you take 45/hr over 40/hr at 2/5? If you have proper brm is the answer should be yes right?
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Old 11-20-2019, 04:37 PM   #24541
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Originally Posted by Mr Spyutastic View Post
Yeah it can seem like that. But I don't think it makes sense to have an attitude of "I don't need to know what it takes to play tougher games or higher limits because I'll always win enough here in 2/5."



Like there's no downside to put in the work.
Opportunity cost yo.
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Old 11-20-2019, 04:42 PM   #24542
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Opportunity cost yo.
lol what are llsnl grinders going to do instead that would be more valuable? I'm willing to be convinced.
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Old 11-20-2019, 05:04 PM   #24543
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lol what are llsnl grinders going to do instead that would be more valuable? I'm willing to be convinced.
Their day job. Drink. Go out with friends.
Play video games. Work out. Not sit around studying for a semi-serious hobbby.
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Old 11-20-2019, 05:06 PM   #24544
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Their day job. Drink. Go out with friends.
Play video games. Work out. Not sit around studying for a semi-serious hobbby.
I was kind of speaking to the full time player audience.

But even so studying can be like an hour even every other day or twice a week.
Whatever it doesn't have to be that intensive.

I'm just saying I don't think there's a strong argument to say there's no reason why one wouldn't improve when it doesn't really take that much more time investment long term.

It's just an excuse for laziness imo.
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Old 11-20-2019, 05:13 PM   #24545
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I mean sure. Put in "some" time. It's just a question of when it stop being value add.
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Old 11-20-2019, 05:34 PM   #24546
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Yeah sure. But if you're looking at the 5/10 game and it seems like you can't beat it unless a fish sits, then you probably have a lot of room to improve.
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Old 11-20-2019, 05:48 PM   #24547
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Say you can beat 5/10 with ease, do you stop then?

What about the 20/40 game?

What about the nosebleed high stake game?

Is there ever a time in which you don't have a lot of room to improve?

Using your logic, if you are a full time grinder and if you are not playing the highest stake, you will always have a lot of room to improve and should always be studying instead of enjoying life?

There will always be a bigger game and better players. Sometime you just have to stop and smell the roses.
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Old 11-20-2019, 05:57 PM   #24548
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Plus games at every level are different - one may master the 1/2 game and struggle in 2/5 because the same attributes that lead to winning in 1/2 are losing attributes in 2/5.

And once you move up to 2/5 or 5/10, it can be very difficult to move back down to 1/2.

The commitment factor in areas with smaller player pool is also an issue when deciding whether to "study" to move up. It's hard for some of you to believe or even accept, but "advance" information can also be -EV when applying in a smaller game. Hence the whole saying "move up to where people respect your raises."
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Old 11-20-2019, 07:21 PM   #24549
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Of course it's all personal preference and what your goals are.

But if poker is a serious hobby you enjoy or even your profession, this view that 5/10 is just too hard so it's not worth studying to improve, I don't really buy any explanation other than laziness. Yeah the actual conditions varies game to game and region to region sure.

To a certain extent I see what you are saying about winning strategies at certain levels not matching with others.

But there are many core principles that can be applied at all levels. If one is a well studied player I don't agree that they will automatically be a loser at 1/2 when they are a winner at 10/20 because they don't know how these people play.
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Old 11-20-2019, 08:13 PM   #24550
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Quote:
Originally Posted by DumbosTrunk View Post
This probably goes for most people, even top winning players. I mean, I don't play the 5/10 at my casino unless I see at least one or two recs sitting. What's the point of playing in a "tough," reg- and pro-infested line-up? IMO none, if your goal is to make $$ and not simply to challenge yourself. Maybe someone can disagree with me and point out incentives to play in these games. I just don't see them.

Sometimes I think the 5/10 regs are just passing money between themselves until a spot sits down.

Was going to reply with something but then saw this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Spyutastic View Post
Yeah sure. But if you're looking at the 5/10 game and it seems like you can't beat it unless a fish sits, then you probably have a lot of room to improve.





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