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Old 10-28-2019, 08:13 PM   #24451
Tanqueray
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Originally Posted by AintNodaisy View Post
So if someone felts; and doesn't cash out... It doesn't impact their loss rate? I'm putting this in my results... My winrate is going WAy! Up!

(sarcasm)
LOL, it's funny but I do know a few people who don't count all the losses in their "record keeping."
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Old 10-28-2019, 08:14 PM   #24452
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Rake matters. It impacts win-rate and loss-rate and whether games can be beaten over the long term. There is no debate.
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Old 10-28-2019, 08:16 PM   #24453
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Originally Posted by Tanqueray View Post
LOL, it's funny but I do know a few people who don't count all the losses in their "record keeping."
As do I. People like to falsify their abilities, not understanding that one of the most important things in poker is to be honest with yourself.
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Old 10-28-2019, 08:17 PM   #24454
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Of course rake matters, and I did not express myself clearly in such matter.

Point is, when people share their win rate, they don't automatically share what the average rake is in their casino(s).

So when discussing this other rate in which losing players lose on average, the rake is implied and included, but less noteworthy.

Blah, I think somehow my message got lost somewhere. Only point I was trying to make is that:

Player A can exaggerate he wins 20bb/hr, but player A probably won't exaggerate how much most players in his player pool lose per hour. That is all.
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Old 10-28-2019, 09:22 PM   #24455
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Originally Posted by Tanqueray View Post
I don't think anyone is actually implying that everyone just sit around in a circle for 5 hours, pay the rake, and go home with basically the same amount of money they started with minus the rake. If that's what we think of poker is, then shush...what am I doing here?
That's exactly what happens as a collective...

The amount of money on the table stays the same until someone gets up or buys back in again.
The only reason it changes is that money comes off to rake (tips, etc).

The difference is that Player A is losing $50/hour, B is losing $40/hour, Player D is winning $30/hour etc etc.

But their average loss rate is exactly equal to rake+tips+promo+cocktail.
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Old 10-29-2019, 09:04 AM   #24456
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

I think people are talking past each other here. There are two "average loss rates" being discussed.

IRTM and others are talking about the cost to play, which will come off of the top, spread over all players to get an average. Let's call this "cost rate."

Tanqueray and others are talking about how spewy the game is on average, in other words, how much losing players are contributing to winning players on average. Let's call this "donation rate."
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Old 10-29-2019, 09:04 AM   #24457
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

what would you guys say is the upper bound of beatable rake in a 1/2 game assuming unknown table dynamics

let's say you're traveling abroad and will be at a casino, you don't know what the field will be like but the rake is posted on the website
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Old 10-29-2019, 09:28 AM   #24458
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

I mean, people make money in Oz with 10% capped at $15, but the game sure has to be spewy to be able to do that. I'd at least go to the venues and communities forum and see if the game is off the hook before I'd sit at anything capped over $10.
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Old 10-29-2019, 11:15 AM   #24459
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

1/3 game
No flop no drop
all flops +1 for "free food & drinks"
all flops +1 for high hand bonus IIRC it's every half hour or so
5% rake with $13 max drop (add on the surcharges and it's $15 max)

they are offering free hotel room (if I bring a roommate) + $30 a night for playing during evening hours and food/drinks would all be free if i ate my meals while playing

considering it because I'm winding down self employment and going to start seeking regular employment and this could be a nice paid or break even vacation

theoretical downside - need friends who actually play poker profitably (taken buddies with me to Macau before and it never ended well)

actual downside - rake seems unbeatable, especially so if there are a lot of cbet folds on the flop where a $20 pot gets the $1 rake at 5% taken out then tripled via food/beverage and high hand fees

99% of live play was in Macau back when the games made considering rake a needless exercise - hence my idiocy in these matters

this is in Panama City IIRC, would have to consult the emails again from a few months back - assuming the offer still stands but don't want to initiate contact again if it's a no go

I'm down to travel and all and understand that worst case scenario, a losing session at 1-3 probably cheaper than hotel room and food bills would be anyway, but would tilt my face having to reach my min hours if i got there are realized how unbeatable it was - i would be absolutely miserable flying down there and then finding myself just folding and listening to audiobooks wondering why i got involved in this - don't want to become one of those miserable prop players clocking in and hating life

Last edited by rickroll; 10-29-2019 at 11:23 AM.
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Old 10-29-2019, 12:58 PM   #24460
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Quote:
Originally Posted by rickroll View Post
1/3 game
No flop no drop
all flops +1 for "free food & drinks"
all flops +1 for high hand bonus IIRC it's every half hour or so
5% rake with $13 max drop (add on the surcharges and it's $15 max)

they are offering free hotel room (if I bring a roommate) + $30 a night for playing during evening hours and food/drinks would all be free if i ate my meals while playing

considering it because I'm winding down self employment and going to start seeking regular employment and this could be a nice paid or break even vacation

theoretical downside - need friends who actually play poker profitably (taken buddies with me to Macau before and it never ended well)

actual downside - rake seems unbeatable, especially so if there are a lot of cbet folds on the flop where a $20 pot gets the $1 rake at 5% taken out then tripled via food/beverage and high hand fees

99% of live play was in Macau back when the games made considering rake a needless exercise - hence my idiocy in these matters

this is in Panama City IIRC, would have to consult the emails again from a few months back - assuming the offer still stands but don't want to initiate contact again if it's a no go

I'm down to travel and all and understand that worst case scenario, a losing session at 1-3 probably cheaper than hotel room and food bills would be anyway, but would tilt my face having to reach my min hours if i got there are realized how unbeatable it was - i would be absolutely miserable flying down there and then finding myself just folding and listening to audiobooks wondering why i got involved in this - don't want to become one of those miserable prop players clocking in and hating life
If it's a decent game, I think that's a solid deal.

Obviously, you theoretically get the high hand promo drop back. Not sure how much if any they skim. The food/drink will be break evenish depending on quality and appetite. But, one of my fav parts of travel is eating, so I'd probably wouldn't get full value, as I'd want to eat elswhere.

5% rather than 10% softens the blow.

I play in a game like this with a freeroll. I adjust by making bigger raises pre in many spots. Particularly, raising over limpers. I want to take it down now, or play a bigger pot.

I complete the sb much less often, very rarely limp and call fewer raises in the bb.
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Old 10-29-2019, 04:17 PM   #24461
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Originally Posted by Garick View Post
I think people are talking past each other here. There are two "average loss rates" being discussed.

IRTM and others are talking about the cost to play, which will come off of the top, spread over all players to get an average. Let's call this "cost rate."

Tanqueray and others are talking about how spewy the game is on average, in other words, how much losing players are contributing to winning players on average. Let's call this "donation rate."
Thanks for coining those terms - glad we are able to move forward.

Imagine a casino with high average donation rate, it would be more plausible for someone to claim high win rate. Such discussion of donation rate would probably be more honest than someone’s claim of win rate.
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Old 10-29-2019, 04:45 PM   #24462
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Quote:
Originally Posted by rickroll View Post
1/3 game
No flop no drop
all flops +1 for "free food & drinks"
all flops +1 for high hand bonus IIRC it's every half hour or so
5% rake with $13 max drop (add on the surcharges and it's $15 max)

they are offering free hotel room (if I bring a roommate) + $30 a night for playing during evening hours and food/drinks would all be free if i ate my meals while playing

considering it because I'm winding down self employment and going to start seeking regular employment and this could be a nice paid or break even vacation

theoretical downside - need friends who actually play poker profitably (taken buddies with me to Macau before and it never ended well)

actual downside - rake seems unbeatable, especially so if there are a lot of cbet folds on the flop where a $20 pot gets the $1 rake at 5% taken out then tripled via food/beverage and high hand fees

99% of live play was in Macau back when the games made considering rake a needless exercise - hence my idiocy in these matters

this is in Panama City IIRC, would have to consult the emails again from a few months back - assuming the offer still stands but don't want to initiate contact again if it's a no go

I'm down to travel and all and understand that worst case scenario, a losing session at 1-3 probably cheaper than hotel room and food bills would be anyway, but would tilt my face having to reach my min hours if i got there are realized how unbeatable it was - i would be absolutely miserable flying down there and then finding myself just folding and listening to audiobooks wondering why i got involved in this - don't want to become one of those miserable prop players clocking in and hating life
This is absolutely beatable rake and seems like a great deal. People beat online micros which is basically 5% uncapped. You can beat a 5BB rake cap. 5% saves you a ton of money on the medium-small pots and if pots are hitting the rake cap a lot then it's an extremely soft game anyway.

Is this a personalized offer or something anyone can take advantage of?
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Old 10-30-2019, 02:36 AM   #24463
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Originally Posted by browni3141 View Post
This is absolutely beatable rake and seems like a great deal. People beat online micros which is basically 5% uncapped. You can beat a 5BB rake cap. 5% saves you a ton of money on the medium-small pots and if pots are hitting the rake cap a lot then it's an extremely soft game anyway.

Is this a personalized offer or something anyone can take advantage of?
Not sure about the $30 but the free room was available to anyone on 2+2 if they shared the room with another player who came with them

This was months back when I thought I'd have time off imminently and now that it seems like I'll have time available on December/January I'm thinking about doing it again so honestly don't know if offer still stands (would be very surprised if no longer on offer) and I'd need to have a friend IRL who both has the time and won't get felted because offer only for groups of 2 to share a room

If you want pm me and I'll send you there email
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Old 10-30-2019, 12:06 PM   #24464
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Sounds tempting, but travel rake is tough to beat.
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Old 11-01-2019, 11:15 AM   #24465
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Hi everybody, I'm looking for feedback on my current bankroll management rules. This is my first post on 2+2 and I haven't been keeping track of what's been going on here for a while, so if this thread is not the suitable place for this post, please let me know and I will make my own thread to keep track of results.

First, some background info about me: I played full time online and live during the online poker boom, crushed 100NL at CDpoker and TitanPoker (if I recall correctly, these were skins on the "iPoker network" or something like that). I had some luck in massive micro buy-in tournaments with guaranteed prizes. When I had 20 buy-ins, I moved up to 200NL and thought that I crushed that too. I moved up to 400NL before I had 20 buy-ins and got felted. I thought it was variance, but in retrospect it was probably tilt, tilt and more tilt, with a sauce of dumb decisions on top. Went back to school, finished my degree, and 12 years later I'm doing quite well in my regular career. I find myself now on/in a place with an unstable internet connection, but with nearby casino's with max $25 rake on cash games and a limited amount of home games, usually with $20 buy-ins or lower. So I don't play online, only live. Also to relax and get out of the house and out of the office, as the core group at the home games is a great diverse group of friends. This year, three poker tours dropped by with MTT's ranging from $200 to $2250 buy-ins.

I track my money religiously and make monthly budgets. I've tracked my financial poker results for about 18 months and recently started to log the hours too, so I will know more about my hourly win rate. I'm up several k since I started to track my results.

I keep track in excel of two separate bankrolls, which are partly in a separate bank account and partly in physical envelopes: one that I call "regular poker" and one that I call "Big MTT's". For about a year, I budgeted $50 per month for my "regular poker" envelope and just kept adding the profits and that monthly $50 to that envelope. I don't add anymore from my budget, because that bankroll now has about $2K. Instead, I add $100 per month to my 'Big MTT's" bankroll.

From my "regular poker" bankroll I play $0.25/0.50 home games, $1/$2 in the casino's when there is a poker tour and $20 buy-in tourneys in home games. I play tight and hardly bluff at $1/$2. My rule is to have at least 20 buy-ins in that regular poker envelope so I shouldn't be playing $1/$2, but the crowd attracted by the poker tours is very juicy. I don't intend to play $1/$2 in the regular cash games outside of poker tours. My goal is to get this bankroll to $10K and play $2/$5, and move everything above $10K into investments, and move back to $1/$2 if I this bankroll goes down to $8K.

So I now add $100 every month to my "Big MTT" bankroll and I play max $300 buy-in live MTT's with that. I've cashed a couple of times already and I am more than half way to my goal of $8K in that bankroll. After reaching $8K, I intend to move everything above $8K into investments.

I bring max 2 buy-ins to the casino for both cash games and big mtt's, and max 3 buy-ins to my $20 tourneys and $0.25/$0.50 home cash games. I've set a max loss per month of $300 for a while but never lost that in a month. I think that I should now set my max monthly loss at $400, and stop playing that month after losing that.

What do you think?

Last edited by PHDonner; 11-01-2019 at 11:35 AM.
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Old 11-01-2019, 11:24 AM   #24466
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

A bit nitty imo. However, if $100 a month is all you can put towards poker from your regular income to help with the downswings then being nitty about it makes sense.
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Old 11-01-2019, 11:32 AM   #24467
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A bit nitty imo. However, if $100 a month is all you can put towards poker from your regular income to help with the downswings then being nitty about it makes sense.
Thanks. I thought my rules were loose, as in <20 buy-ins for the big mtt's.

$100/m is all I want to put towards poker, mainly to prevent negative emotions.
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Old 11-01-2019, 02:29 PM   #24468
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Thanks. I thought my rules were loose, as in <20 buy-ins for the big mtt's.

$100/m is all I want to put towards poker, mainly to prevent negative emotions.
You're not a pro, if you have to wait a couple months for another MTT buyin all that gets hurt is your time having fun and opportunity cost of tournaments you could've cashed in *shrug*.
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Old 11-01-2019, 03:01 PM   #24469
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

yeah man, incredible you waited 13 years to make your first post

i think your system is fine, having an artificially low bankroll can help bring more enjoyment to microstakes

but for mtts, especially if they are just a few times a year, just open the wallet and play

you likely have an edge and if not, there are far more expensive hobbies that would have cost you much more anyway
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Old 11-01-2019, 07:36 PM   #24470
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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you likely have an edge and if not, there are far more expensive hobbies that would have cost you much more anyway
THIS. I was a significant online limit 6-max winner and a slight winner starting my live NL run. My dad recently gave me guff about playing poker and I asked him "so this year for hunting how much money did you spend on shotgun shells, gas, the lease on your hunting cabin, and wages for your guide/cabin caretaker?"

He's also worried about me getting stabbed in the casino parking lot for my roll... but it's not like my friend could accidentally shoot my face off at the table when the board pairs and he gets excited.

Last edited by reaper6788; 11-01-2019 at 07:54 PM.
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Old 11-02-2019, 05:27 AM   #24471
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Originally Posted by rickroll View Post
yeah man, incredible you waited 13 years to make your first post

i think your system is fine, having an artificially low bankroll can help bring more enjoyment to microstakes

but for mtts, especially if they are just a few times a year, just open the wallet and play

you likely have an edge and if not, there are far more expensive hobbies that would have cost you much more anyway


+1 to that.

The cost of having this amount of money on stand by is bigger than the cost of taking big MTTs as a hobby.
You can also use your regular poker roll to buy in on this kinda of tournament... it’s close to 1 buy in of $1/$2 that you will lose what... once each 3 months?

I think it’s better to move your MTT roll to your regular poker roll (making only one poker roll), having a smaller chance of loosing it all and stablish yourself goals and limits of how many big MTTs you are playing and how many rebuys are you willing to put in each of em.

That way your limit of loss could increase (it’s so normal to loose 2buyins on any cashgame), that way your hours played could increase too.

All that said... the main thing is that you should do what gives you peace of mind.
If you don’t feel confortable with my “suggestion”, than you should keep doing what already is working for your reality.
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Old 11-02-2019, 07:40 AM   #24472
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Multiple rolls seems overkill for a part timer with a job, as does needing 20 buy ins. I’ve played 2/5 on as little as a 3k “roll” before. It’s not ideal, but if you consider yourself to have an advantage over the field, playing 2/5 is a significantly better use of your time than 1/2 and the fields are typically very similar in skill, especially if you’re in an area that runs higher stake as better players will matriculate to those.

Regardless, like others have said, you need to be comfortable, so do what makes you comfortable if it works for you and disregard the above if you don’t think you can do it.
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Old 11-02-2019, 01:25 PM   #24473
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Originally Posted by Tanqueray View Post
LOL, it's funny but I do know a few people who don't count all the losses in their "record keeping."
Yes this is funny, as is people who don't track when they are running really bad. Also people who include promos in their winrate. I know some whose winrate is almost all promos since they only play during promo hours. Not much of a reflection of skill, except perhaps game selection.

I keep track of promo $$, but only for tax purposes.
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Old 11-02-2019, 02:00 PM   #24474
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Multiple rolls seems overkill for a part timer with a job, as does needing 20 buy ins. I’ve played 2/5 on as little as a 3k “roll” before. It’s not ideal, but if you consider yourself to have an advantage over the field, playing 2/5 is a significantly better use of your time than 1/2 and the fields are typically very similar in skill, especially if you’re in an area that runs higher stake as better players will matriculate to those.

Regardless, like others have said, you need to be comfortable, so do what makes you comfortable if it works for you and disregard the above if you don’t think you can do it.
Yeah, i mean if you have the likely skills to beat 2/5 and can easily replenish your roll through work or other sources of income i dont see many problems with aggressive shottaking. One of those few problems may be that i think it is bad for you mentally to go busto, even if it is a 3K "roll" playing 2/5.

For myself i have played as part time income now for several years and/or to raise my lifestyle and quality of life. Like, my work money is enough to cover rent, bills, food that kind of basics. My extra poker money each month gives me more spending money to shop different items like clothes, eating out at resturants, buying new electronics like laptops or smartphones. At the same time i am very aware of preserving my bankroll well, so that i will be able to earn from live poker also in the years to come helping me to keep my lifestyle. Busting my roll is not something i want to experience for various reasons.

Last edited by Petrucci; 11-02-2019 at 02:07 PM.
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Old 11-02-2019, 03:39 PM   #24475
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Thanks everybody for the responses! I really appreciate your insights.

I just realized that I didn't explain why I wanted a strict set of rules, and that was that my losing streak on 400NL eons ago was quite traumatic, since I had been high on a roller-coaster and then lost most of it. I was at a difficult moment in life and pretty much the only thing that was going well was poker. So when that took a dive too, I hit rock bottom. 'Hopes down the f*cking drain' as Teddy KGB put it so eloquently. Got diagnosed with depression and was on antidepressants for a while.

Now, years later, I've been given a lot of opportunities and am doing quite well in life, work, and society. I associate my depression with my losing streak and I just don't want to go down that freaking rabbit hole again.
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