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Old 10-10-2019, 01:44 PM   #24276
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Pauly James

1. you will find the best games in the hinterlands
2. Its low stakes live - its still profitable
3. Dude named LAG used to poast up trip reports in LVL he has had 5 figure days
4. There are plenty of guys that used to play 5/t regging it up in 2/5
5. I have personally witnessed both sides of the coin on this one.
6. I personally know plenty of 2/5 players that win greater than 50/year
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Old 10-10-2019, 04:25 PM   #24277
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If you are playing 2/5 "full time" and you aren't making more than $50K, then either you have serious leaks in your game or your definition of "full time" is different than mine and you arent playing anywhere near "full time" hours.
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Old 10-10-2019, 05:34 PM   #24278
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Originally Posted by MikeStarr View Post
If you are playing 2/5 "full time" and you aren't making more than $50K, then either you have serious leaks in your game or your definition of "full time" is different than mine and you arent playing anywhere near "full time" hours.

This exact response is a classic example of why people think you are an as shole. A person asks a simple question and you post up this. I highly advise reading how to win friends and influence people.
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Old 10-10-2019, 05:36 PM   #24279
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Well played! That last 600 is especially nice.

Is the BI still capped at $500?
Thanks! Yes still capped at $500.
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Old 10-10-2019, 05:56 PM   #24280
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This exact response is a classic example of why people think you are an as shole. A person asks a simple question and you post up this. I highly advise reading how to win friends and influence people.

The dude asked a question and I gave him an honest answer. How does that make me an *******? Nothing I said was an insult to him or anyone else. His post makes it clear hes been away from poker for a while and hes trying to see what things are like nowadays.

All you told him was that you know some guys that do it. So? Maybe making $50K is super hard but you know some highly skilled players. Maybe making $50K is easy. You basically told him nothing. Congrats.

A full time player should be playing something like 1800 hours a year. To make $50K he doesnt even need to make $28/hr. That's not that hard to do. For a rec player it is but not for a full time poker player.
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Old 10-10-2019, 06:00 PM   #24281
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

"Hes either lazy, or not skilled." Is the essence of your post, Mike.

You dont see how that could be insulting?
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Old 10-10-2019, 06:10 PM   #24282
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Originally Posted by soxfan43 View Post
I hit 3k live hours earlier this year. This spans from 2016-present. 2500+ of those hours are at 2/5 $500 cap. As you can see, my results have improved over the last chunk of hours. I feel like I have really honed in on how to exploit the guys I play against all the time with great success. I've plugged some huge leaks & I'd like to think I am expanding my edge in the games I play. Buuuuuuut I could also be running hot over the last 600 hours. Time will tell.


Hours 0-500 = 5.19 BB/hr
Hours 501-1000 = 4.34 BB/hr
Hours 1001-1500 = 5.26 BB/hr
Hours 1501-2000 = 4.41 BB/hr
Hours 2001-2500 = 5.18 BB/hr
Hours 2501-3000 = 11.73 BB/hr
Hours 3001-3073 = 16.67 BB/hr

Congrats!

Serious question: do you subtract lunch breaks, etc, from your hours played?

I'm just trying to wrap my head around the hours. Assuming you've played almost every day this year, we can call it 270 days, averaging over 11 hours/day. It seems like a brutal schedule.

I think I might be capable of beating 2/5 for 5 BB/hr, playing once or twice a week (mostly Saturdays because I work full time). I don't think I could ever put in this type of workload without getting burned out.

Do you see a big difference in your win rate based on what time & day you're playing?
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Old 10-10-2019, 07:17 PM   #24283
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Mike you have my sympathy. I now completely understand. I will never interact with you again. I am now placing you on ignore. Please do the same for me. Best of luck in all of your future endeavors.
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Old 10-10-2019, 08:28 PM   #24284
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Originally Posted by DeepFryer View Post
Congrats!

Serious question: do you subtract lunch breaks, etc, from your hours played?

I'm just trying to wrap my head around the hours. Assuming you've played almost every day this year, we can call it 270 days, averaging over 11 hours/day. It seems like a brutal schedule.

I think I might be capable of beating 2/5 for 5 BB/hr, playing once or twice a week (mostly Saturdays because I work full time). I don't think I could ever put in this type of workload without getting burned out.

Do you see a big difference in your win rate based on what time & day you're playing?
This is spread over 4 years, so not quite the volume you were trying to wrap your head around! I do not clock out for breaks or food, though I am a verrrrrrry minimal break taker, so it doesn't affect my stats all that much. I classify myself as a very serious rec player I guess. I try to play 2-3 times per week. Often times once during the week and then try to get 2 weekend sessions in when possible. I have my win rate broken down by day and winrates are substantially higher on the weekends (as you would imagine).

Mon = 6.06
Tues = 6.40
Wed = 4.26
Thurs = 5.08
Fri = 13.55
Sat = 11.08
Sun = -2.63 lol

2016 = 150 hours
2017 = 1450 hours
2018 = 850 hours
2019 = 650 hours

I definitely notice myself wanting to play less and feeling more burnt out as time has gone on.

Last edited by soxfan43; 10-10-2019 at 08:34 PM. Reason: Added day by day winrates.
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Old 10-10-2019, 08:33 PM   #24285
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Originally Posted by iraisetoomuch View Post
"Hes either lazy, or not skilled." Is the essence of your post, Mike.

You dont see how that could be insulting?
Well, first of all the guy who asked the question didnt sound like a guy who is playing 2/5 full time. He sounds like a guy who has been out of the poker circles for a while and is just asking a general question about the state of 2/5 players. I dont see how what I said could be insulting to him at all.

Second of all, the fact still remains that if a full time 2/5 player cant make more than $28/hr he's not very skilled and if he makes a lot more than $28/hr but doesn't play very much hes lazy. It is what it is.

I would say the same thing to my son if he was a full time 2/5 player not breaking $50K. Work harder and get better. If people want to be babied they should go talk to their Mom.
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Old 10-10-2019, 08:37 PM   #24286
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Originally Posted by MikeStarr View Post
The dude asked a question and I gave him an honest answer. How does that make me an *******? Nothing I said was an insult to him or anyone else. His post makes it clear hes been away from poker for a while and hes trying to see what things are like nowadays.

All you told him was that you know some guys that do it. So? Maybe making $50K is super hard but you know some highly skilled players. Maybe making $50K is easy. You basically told him nothing. Congrats.

A full time player should be playing something like 1800 hours a year. To make $50K he doesnt even need to make $28/hr. That's not that hard to do. For a rec player it is but not for a full time poker player.
Mike,

Stick with 2+2 vernacular. Just say, “it depends”.

You’ll get more +1 comments.

Won’t help the OP, but you won’t get flamed.
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Old 10-10-2019, 08:37 PM   #24287
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Originally Posted by squid face View Post
Pauly James

1. you will find the best games in the hinterlands
2. Its low stakes live - its still profitable
3. Dude named LAG used to poast up trip reports in LVL he has had 5 figure days
4. There are plenty of guys that used to play 5/t regging it up in 2/5
5. I have personally witnessed both sides of the coin on this one.
6. I personally know plenty of 2/5 players that win greater than 50/year


Thanks for response squid. I remember you posted you had like one of the highest winrate at venetian years ago. But did you play much 5/10 in vegas back then or only rarely? If you did, what was the reason?


Was it because the skill level is much bigger? Also when you played 2/5 at V, did you buyin 500 or the max 1k?


Im guessing a 2/5 1k game ws much softer than a 5/10 1500 max at bellagio? I always wonder why so many skilled players play mostly 2/5.


Well why is it even back then, you rarely see that many 5/10 tables? Because its like when very good skilled players play 2/5, its hard for 1/3 players to move up since they get sharks at 2/5. I remember a long time ago ppl said bellagio use to have 2/5nl as the lowest limit. So i could imagine how soft that was back then.
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Old 10-10-2019, 08:46 PM   #24288
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Originally Posted by MikeStarr View Post
If you are playing 2/5 "full time" and you aren't making more than $50K, then either you have serious leaks in your game or your definition of "full time" is different than mine and you arent playing anywhere near "full time" hours.


My definition of full time 2/5 would be like playing 1500 hours at least a year.


But are many of the skilled players in vegas or ac or pennsylvania etc who play 2/5nl full time clearing 50k plus a year easily without a sweat? Obviously someone like you who i assume is a very skilled player and so is squid face. But most 2/5 players are not at you or squid level. So players that are very skilled like you guys don't ever having a losing year ever?


So im curious but like a middle of the pack 2/5 reg. Im guessing this guy is making like 3bb an hour or so? Like are there 1/3 regs that do very well but barely is break even at say 2/5?


Also what stakes do you play and do you play full time? Do you play 2/5 and 5/10? Also im curious but if someone who plays 5/10nl full time, how can someone even get that many hours? Its like when you look at bravopokerlive, unless you play at bellagio or say commerce in LA... isn't it almost impossible to get like 1500 hours at say 5/10nl and up? The only casino that seems to show 5/10nl and up consistently at bravopokerlive is mgm national harbor.
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Old 10-10-2019, 08:50 PM   #24289
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Originally Posted by MikeStarr View Post
If you are playing 2/5 "full time" and you aren't making more than $50K, then either you have serious leaks in your game or your definition of "full time" is different than mine and you arent playing anywhere near "full time" hours.

How many full time 2/5 nl regs in vegas you estimate make at least 50k a year? What about on the east coast like say borgata or in the east coast casinos? 50k plus profit for every 2/5nl reg who grinds full time... would mean a ton of money has to be lost by the opposition. I mean when you look at bravo poker live and see how many games go at bellagio, wynn, aria, venetian, you think there are more than 8 players at each casino that avg at least 50k at 2/5 each year? I took that number because 5 would seem a bit low but more reasonable than say 10 full time players at each 2/5nl poker room.
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Old 10-10-2019, 09:27 PM   #24290
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Originally Posted by PaulyJames200x View Post
My definition of full time 2/5 would be like playing 1500 hours at least a year.


But are many of the skilled players in vegas or ac or pennsylvania etc who play 2/5nl full time clearing 50k plus a year easily without a sweat? Obviously someone like you who i assume is a very skilled player and so is squid face. But most 2/5 players are not at you or squid level. So players that are very skilled like you guys don't ever having a losing year ever?


So im curious but like a middle of the pack 2/5 reg. Im guessing this guy is making like 3bb an hour or so? Like are there 1/3 regs that do very well but barely is break even at say 2/5?


Also what stakes do you play and do you play full time? Do you play 2/5 and 5/10? Also im curious but if someone who plays 5/10nl full time, how can someone even get that many hours? Its like when you look at bravopokerlive, unless you play at bellagio or say commerce in LA... isn't it almost impossible to get like 1500 hours at say 5/10nl and up? The only casino that seems to show 5/10nl and up consistently at bravopokerlive is mgm national harbor.
Playing 150-200 hours a month I have no losing months, let alone losing years. I currently play 5-card Omaha (and 2/5 and 5/10 to a lesser extent). My last losing month I was playing very poorly at 1/3 and it’s fair to say I was kinda a fish. But that was a year ago.
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Old 10-10-2019, 09:47 PM   #24291
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I mean anyone here had like a 10k profit for a day at 2/5? I assume 2/5 players expect to have losing days of up to 1500 as normal and up to say 2500 profit?
In typical 2/5 games, 10k days are so rare they don't warrant discussion. I do know a player that regularly builds $5k+ stacks in a $500 cap game. However, will often plays 2 days straight with no sleep to do it and he is a very experienced player (full time pro for over a decade).


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Originally Posted by PaulyJames200x View Post
I mean when i think of a live pro cash game player, i always picture them playing at least 2/5... so 5/10 and say 10/20nl and up.
Your perception is wrong. There are many Vegas pros grinding 1/2 and 1/3 and there are many more wannabe pros grinding all the low stakes levels. I think it is a bit misleading to say that if one doesn't make $x/yr they are terrible. The fact is that the vast majority of players that try to become Vegas pros fail, and a large percentage of those that actually succeed are just scraping by. That's not to say there aren't successful pros who make good money at the table and are wise with it off the table. Squid is an example of such a player, but he is by far the exception rather than the rule.

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Originally Posted by PaulyJames200x View Post
But if there are this few 5/10nl game that goes, wouldn't that mean very few 5/10nl+ pros? I mean when i check bravo app and look at borgata for example, they dont have any 5/10 during the week.. only 2/5. East coast rooms like mgm etc... i think you might get at most 2 games of 5/10nl only during the week? If thats the case, wouldn't that mean lot of very good pros just grind 2/5 instead? Thus making it worst for average/breakeven players playing 2/5 ?
Sure, but one could also structure his/her schedule to coincide with when the big games run. For instance, I knew a very good 5/T pro that would play 35hrs/week but he would put all of his hours in on Thursday/Friday/Saturday because he had no interest in playing lower than 5/T.

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5. Are there any full time 1/3 or 2/5 regs that only play 1/3 or 2/5 and never moved up in stakes? Because what they made was okay for them and game was good where they make enough and don't have plans to move up? I can imagine a 2/5 player playing some 5/10 and getting outmatched and going to play their regular 2/5 game. But are there any very good 1/3 players that can't profit at 2/5?
Ego is one of the biggest things that drives players to play higher and it's one of the biggest things that prevents that from dropping down when it's in their best interest to do so. There are definitely 5/T grinders with lower hourlies than 2/5 grinders.

I feel like most grinders have probably taken a shot at a higher level at one point or another but shot taking takes a significant amount of risk and it's not going to be worth it for everybody. Also, you have to consider bankroll. A lot of players simply don't ever have the bankroll necessary to move up.

1/3 is much more similar to 2/5 than 2/5 is to 5/T. Still, 1/3 games will tend to be softer which means certain players that do well at 1/3 will not do as well at 2/5.


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Second of all, the fact still remains that if a full time 2/5 player cant make more than $28/hr he's not very skilled and if he makes a lot more than $28/hr but doesn't play very much hes lazy.
A lot of people choose poker as a career because they are lazy. On top of that, poker gives players a lot of incentive to be lazy because the grind can be very monotonous and also the game loves to just kick you right in the balls whenever it feels like it.
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Old 10-10-2019, 09:49 PM   #24292
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How many full time 2/5 nl regs in vegas you estimate make at least 50k a year? What about on the east coast like say borgata or in the east coast casinos? 50k plus profit for every 2/5nl reg who grinds full time... would mean a ton of money has to be lost by the opposition. I mean when you look at bravo poker live and see how many games go at bellagio, wynn, aria, venetian, you think there are more than 8 players at each casino that avg at least 50k at 2/5 each year? I took that number because 5 would seem a bit low but more reasonable than say 10 full time players at each 2/5nl poker room.
I cant answer all of these questions and I doubt anyone else can either. Nobody really knows what anyone else makes or loses unless they are close friends. But if you are a "full time" player, and you arent making more than $50K, you probably wont last long. $50K isn't that much money if its your only income.
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Old 10-11-2019, 03:28 AM   #24293
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Thanks for the reply Soxfan. I was starting to think that Sundays were weirdly tough to beat, so it helps to see the #'s to support that observation.
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Old 10-11-2019, 08:53 AM   #24294
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I cant answer all of these questions and I doubt anyone else can either. Nobody really knows what anyone else makes or loses unless they are close friends. But if you are a "full time" player, and you arent making more than $50K, you probably wont last long. $50K isn't that much money if its your only income.
it's not that it's a lot of money to make, it's that for every person making 50k in a room, a combination of people need to lose ~55k.
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Old 10-11-2019, 10:44 AM   #24295
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Thanks for the reply Soxfan. I was starting to think that Sundays were weirdly tough to beat, so it helps to see the #'s to support that observation.
It's still just an anomaly. I would imagine as we play more Sunday hours, that should start to come up. It's not like games are magically tougher on Sunday.
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Old 10-11-2019, 11:41 AM   #24296
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If you play 1500 hours a year, that averages to about 29 hours a week, or about 4 days a week putting in about a 7 hour session. Pretty sweet gig hours-wise compared to most jobs.

If you want to win $50K a year at 2/5 playing 1500 hours, that puts you at about $33/hr, which is exactly 6.66 bb/hr (ha, ironic? smileyface). Now whether or not *you* can ship that rate at 2/5 NL is definitely questionable, but from where I sit it doesn't seem that inconceivable that the best players in the room could achieve that (and remember, I'm always the guy in here doubting large winrates). Whether the "average" pro could maintain this is certainly questionable.

So while Mike's delivery could use some work, I don't think anything he's said regarding the numbers is too terribly outrageous / lol.

Gno?G
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Old 10-11-2019, 03:18 PM   #24297
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it's not that it's a lot of money to make, it's that for every person making 50k in a room, a combination of people need to lose ~55k.
Estimates Ive seen are that 90%+ of all poker players lose money. A guy I know who used to work for an online poker site and had access to records, told me that its well known in the industry that more like 95% of online players lose. The money is all being funneled to a relatively very small number of people.

I find it hard to believe that so many people keep losing at poker and keep coming back but then I think about the slot and table game players. They keep coming back also.
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Old 10-11-2019, 04:58 PM   #24298
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Estimates Ive seen are that 90%+ of all poker players lose money. A guy I know who used to work for an online poker site and had access to records, told me that its well known in the industry that more like 95% of online players lose. The money is all being funneled to a relatively very small number of people.



I find it hard to believe that so many people keep losing at poker and keep coming back but then I think about the slot and table game players. They keep coming back also.


You’re moving the goalposts of the discussion. It’s not about 90+% of players lose, I don’t think anyone really is going to argue that, it’s that all full time pros should be making more than 50k/year.

Obviously there are players making 50k, some even 100+k, but for each one of them, the number of players in the player pool gets geometrically larger but the player pool is finite. Eventually, when you add (X) 100k winners, (Y) 75k winners, etc etc etc, you get to a point that to sustain that many winners becomes an outlandish number of losing players needed. Some poker ecosystems probably don’t have enough players to sustain all full time pros making > 50k.

Last edited by johnny_on_the_spot; 10-11-2019 at 05:03 PM.
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Old 10-11-2019, 05:29 PM   #24299
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You’re moving the goalposts of the discussion. It’s not about 90+% of players lose, I don’t think anyone really is going to argue that, it’s that all full time pros should be making more than 50k/year.

Obviously there are players making 50k, some even 100+k, but for each one of them, the number of players in the player pool gets geometrically larger but the player pool is finite. Eventually, when you add (X) 100k winners, (Y) 75k winners, etc etc etc, you get to a point that to sustain that many winners becomes an outlandish number of losing players needed. Some poker ecosystems probably don’t have enough players to sustain all full time pros making > 50k.
I don't disagree at all but if that local poker economy cant support however many full time 2/5 pros are in the room, that eventually leads to less poker pros. The best will survive and keep playing. The others will most likely do 1 of 3 things.

1) move somewhere else
2) get a real job
3) get a part time job and play less poker

Either way, those guys are no longer full time pros at least not in the room where they cant make $50k+. You just cant survive very long on that small amount of money. Some may have room mates or a wife with a second income and be able to pull it off, but I doubt many of them will keep playing long term.

I guess the answer to the guys question....

"Do you think there are many 2/5 players that pull in on average 50k a year full time and done it in consisent years? Say they been doing it at least 5 years plus? Surely there has to be some right? "

Depends on what he considers to be "many". What percentage of 2/5 players in any room are even full time players? Maybe 5%? How many of those players break $50K? Not "many", but there are "some".
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Old 10-11-2019, 05:47 PM   #24300
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I don't disagree at all but if that local poker economy cant support however many full time 2/5 pros are in the room, that eventually leads to less poker pros. The best will survive and keep playing. The others will most likely do 1 of 3 things.

1) move somewhere else
2) get a real job
3) get a part time job and play less poker

Either way, those guys are no longer full time pros at least not in the room where they cant make $50k+. You just cant survive very long on that small amount of money. Some may have room mates or a wife with a second income and be able to pull it off, but I doubt many of them will keep playing long term.

I guess the answer to the guys question....

"Do you think there are many 2/5 players that pull in on average 50k a year full time and done it in consisent years? Say they been doing it at least 5 years plus? Surely there has to be some right? "

Depends on what he considers to be "many". What percentage of 2/5 players in any room are even full time players? Maybe 5%? How many of those players break $50K? Not "many", but there are "some".
I don't know what a full time pro is but I consider a pro to be someone that makes the majority of his/her income from poker. There are a lot of these in Vegas and one doesn't need to make $50k/yr to support one's self in Vegas. The cost of living is pretty low there and many of them have roommates . Some have a private bedroom, and some live in living rooms. Hell, some of them even live in their car.
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