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Old 06-04-2019, 11:28 PM   #23801
browni3141
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Originally Posted by MikeStarr View Post
In theory, you can say that as long as you have the bankroll, you should call with any equity edge, but we dont play in theory. We play in real life. We arent robots. When a $20-$25/hr winner loses $3500 in 3 hands, probably within an hour or 2, its going to have a massive affect on him.

He just lost 140-175 hrs worth of winnings. That's pretty hard to get over mentally. It will affect his mood when hes away from the table. It probably led to lots of bad play and tilt. I could be way off base but if those losses did lead to bad play, who knows how many $1000s those calls cost him.

Sometimes a small edge for relatively large amounts of money is not worth it because losing them will hurt a lot more than winning them will help.
The advice should be to work on your weak mental game, not avoid tilting spots. You're turning down hundreds of dollars of EV.

If losing a few buy-ins is going to severely tilt you then that's a huge problem.
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Old 06-05-2019, 12:03 AM   #23802
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Congrats on the results!

But if were behing honest, trying to draw any conclusions from 3 months of playing is just asking for trouble.

Continued good luck to you.
Should I cancel my move to Macau?
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Old 06-05-2019, 06:29 AM   #23803
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Originally Posted by browni3141 View Post
The advice should be to work on your weak mental game, not avoid tilting spots. You're turning down hundreds of dollars of EV.

If losing a few buy-ins is going to severely tilt you then that's a huge problem.
If you think losing 3 bi there doesn't tilt you, then your mental game is pretty weak yourself.

Everyone is going to get tilted in that situation. To say you wouldn't means you are just trying to fool yourself. Intentionally ignoring your tilt is a form of tilt (and it may be one of the most costly forms). It's just a matter of recognizing it and knowing what your specific type of tilt leads you to do, and how to slow or reverse that process.

Me personally I know my first sign of "tilt" is my ears get hot. Literally like a cartoon with steam coming out of my ears. When this happens, I take a walk and ask myself what is really going on, so I know the best way to combat it.
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Old 06-05-2019, 07:50 AM   #23804
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Its really easy to say on a message board that you dont tilt. It sounds really cool and macho, but its BS. The opportunity to have a guy blind shoving $1000s is pretty rare. If you call 3 of them in a short period and lose all 3 costing you 700BBs and dont tilt, then you are a robot. Good for you. For the rest of us humans, its going to affect our play going forward.
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Old 06-05-2019, 08:16 AM   #23805
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Originally Posted by MikeStarr View Post
Its really easy to say on a message board that you dont tilt. It sounds really cool and macho, but its BS. The opportunity to have a guy blind shoving $1000s is pretty rare. If you call 3 of them in a short period and lose all 3 costing you 700BBs and dont tilt, then you are a robot. Good for you. For the rest of us humans, its going to affect our play going forward.
Maybe to clarify: I absolutely went home and didn’t play anymore that day. And then took a few days off after the AJ vs royal flush debacle that closed out my month.

I’ve certainly tilted before but it’s usually life tilt that causes me to punt stacks with no regard and that’s only happened twice that I can vividly remember.
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Old 06-05-2019, 08:31 AM   #23806
El Barbero
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Originally Posted by MarshMan114 View Post
Maybe to clarify: I absolutely went home and didn’t play anymore that day. And then took a few days off after the AJ vs royal flush debacle that closed out my month.

I’ve certainly tilted before but it’s usually life tilt that causes me to punt stacks with no regard and that’s only happened twice that I can vividly remember.
If you define tilt as anything that costs you money, then as a +ev player deciding to quit is a form of tilt.

Not saying it's wrong as it might be less costly than your other options.

But recognizing it is still important, so that if you can work on it and next time it happens you only need to take 1 day off as you can now recover quicker.
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Old 06-05-2019, 09:16 AM   #23807
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If you think losing 3 bi there doesn't tilt you, then your mental game is pretty weak yourself.

Everyone is going to get tilted in that situation.
No they aren't. Very presumptuous of you to think so. If you've played long enough and have the correct mental status and bankroll, losing three by-ins is just a bad run -- and it's really no big deal as long as you are playing well and making the right decisions.

I lost $1,500 in one night in a 1/2 game, and it didn't tilt me at all. I wasn't happy about it, but it didn't affect my play. I didn't leave early, I continued to play the way I always play, and I went back two nights later (the next game) and continued to play the way I always play. I won $1,200 of it back. No tilt.
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Old 06-05-2019, 09:59 AM   #23808
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I agree that it is possible to massively reduce how prone you are to tilt.
But to eliminate it completely is probably impossible during the worst times.
I also agree with MarshMan that life tilt is often more dangerous than card tilt and is something that players should constantly be aware of. I am far more likely to play poorly due to life tilt than run bad tilt.
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Old 06-05-2019, 10:07 AM   #23809
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Originally Posted by MikeStarr View Post
In theory, you can say that as long as you have the bankroll, you should call with any equity edge, but we dont play in theory. We play in real life. We arent robots. When a $20-$25/hr winner loses $3500 in 3 hands, probably within an hour or 2, its going to have a massive affect on him.

He just lost 140-175 hrs worth of winnings. That's pretty hard to get over mentally. It will affect his mood when hes away from the table. It probably led to lots of bad play and tilt. I could be way off base but if those losses did lead to bad play, who knows how many $1000s those calls cost him.

Sometimes a small edge for relatively large amounts of money is not worth it because losing them will hurt a lot more than winning them will help.
Speaking for myself losing any amount of money in these open shove spots is very low on the list of things that tilt me. I will gamble with anyone anytime in these spots and accept the result. What sets me off the most is making an obviously bad play, like calling on the river when I'm never good. Kind of off topic with my personal anecdote but to not take these massive +ev spots because you might tilt if it doesn't go your way is a huge mistake.
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Old 06-05-2019, 10:11 AM   #23810
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No they aren't. Very presumptuous of you to think so. If you've played long enough and have the correct mental status and bankroll, losing three by-ins is just a bad run -- and it's really no big deal as long as you are playing well and making the right decisions.

I lost $1,500 in one night in a 1/2 game, and it didn't tilt me at all. I wasn't happy about it, but it didn't affect my play. I didn't leave early, I continued to play the way I always play, and I went back two nights later (the next game) and continued to play the way I always play. I won $1,200 of it back. No tilt.

Ok so yes I am sure some people don't tilt. To me tilt is any mental reaction that causes you to play less than your A game. Many people tilt when winning worse that when they are losing.

I have never met one of these tiltless people but with 8 billion people I'm sure some of them don't tilt in any fashion.

I would guess that the number of people who don't tilt in some fashion are less than the number of people whos real win rate at 5/10 is over $100/hour.
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Old 06-05-2019, 10:14 AM   #23811
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Getting chippy in here folks. Keep it positive.
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Old 06-05-2019, 10:14 AM   #23812
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Originally Posted by mdelore View Post
Speaking for myself losing any amount of money in these open shove spots is very low on the list of things that tilt me. I will gamble with anyone anytime in these spots and accept the result. What sets me off the most is making an obviously bad play, like calling on the river when I'm never good. Kind of off topic with my personal anecdote but to not take these massive +ev spots because you might tilt if it doesn't go your way is a huge mistake.
my exact mindset as well. +1
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Old 06-05-2019, 10:38 AM   #23813
browni3141
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If tilt is such a big issue for you then quit studying strat and focus on that because it’s costing you more money than any more poker knowledge can make you. Acting like tilt is inevitable and just something to accept is nonsense. You should be working to eliminate it or at least make it insignificant.

You should be a robot at the poker table.
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Old 06-05-2019, 10:42 AM   #23814
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Originally Posted by El Barbero View Post
Ok so yes I am sure some people don't tilt. To me tilt is any mental reaction that causes you to play less than your A game. Many people tilt when winning worse that when they are losing.

I have never met one of these tiltless people but with 8 billion people I'm sure some of them don't tilt in any fashion.

I would guess that the number of people who don't tilt in some fashion are less than the number of people whos real win rate at 5/10 is over $100/hour.
Not being chippy, but I didn't say I never tilt. I said losing three (or five) buy-ins does not tilt me. And as others have stated, I'm always going to gii when I have an advantage, and if I happen to lose, so be it. It doesn't tilt me.

Now, if I lose because I'm playing badly and making bad calls -- that might tilt me.
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Old 06-05-2019, 11:52 AM   #23815
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Originally Posted by browni3141 View Post
If tilt is such a big issue for you then quit studying strat and focus on that because it’s costing you more money than any more poker knowledge can make you. Acting like tilt is inevitable and just something to accept is nonsense. You should be working to eliminate it or at least make it insignificant.

You should be a robot at the poker table.
Think I'm more in Mike's camp on this. Saying the above is the ez part; actually doing something about it ain't so ez. In the real world, practical solutions (such as stop losses or whatever other "-EV" moves that help you avoid tilt situations) are often going to be much more feasible to actually implement (versus "simply play like a robot").

But, each to their own, and whatever works for you. Not all of us humans/robots are wired the same.

GcluelessrobotnoobG
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Old 06-05-2019, 12:50 PM   #23816
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Of course it’s not easy. I don’t claim this is low hanging fruit, nor do I claim that I’ve successfully become an emotionless poker robot (although I think I’m quite a bit better than most) Recognizing one’s own limitations is fine, but don’t allow yourself to be bound by them to the point where you’re skipping big +EV spots and rationalizing that it’s okay. Humans are great at improving themselves so work on improving your emotional control at the table instead of being a slave to tilt. Nobody is as good as they can be in this regard and for some reason it doesn’t seem to be a topic of focus for many people.
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Old 06-05-2019, 01:23 PM   #23817
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Maybe it's just the games that I play in, or the number of hours that I put in, but losing 3 BI flips doesn't bother me anymore. If your game is good you should be getting stacks in on a relatively regular basis anyway.
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Old 06-05-2019, 02:04 PM   #23818
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Maybe it's just the games that I play in, or the number of hours that I put in, but losing 3 BI flips doesn't bother me anymore. If your game is good you should be getting stacks in on a relatively regular basis anyway.
Come on down to the Isle in Pompano Beach Fl and play some 2/5. Home of the nittiest of the nits. Yesterday we went 8 hands in a row without a flop and no pot over $100 for over an hour....I left at that point.

Im 100% convinced win rate ceiling is lower here than any room in the Country and even more so from April-July/Aug. Lose a few buy ins and good luck getting them back.
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Old 06-05-2019, 02:21 PM   #23819
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I'm not sure why I'd want to play in a game that sucks when there are games here with people straddling the button for $100, shipping blind, getting blasted drunk, and otherwise punting cash.
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Old 06-05-2019, 03:09 PM   #23820
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Originally Posted by MikeStarr View Post
Come on down to the Isle in Pompano Beach Fl and play some 2/5. Home of the nittiest of the nits. Yesterday we went 8 hands in a row without a flop and no pot over $100 for over an hour....I left at that point.

Im 100% convinced win rate ceiling is lower here than any room in the Country and even more so from April-July/Aug. Lose a few buy ins and good luck getting them back.
You should start blind shoving.
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Old 06-06-2019, 09:50 AM   #23821
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I'm not sure why I'd want to play in a game that sucks when there are games here with people straddling the button for $100, shipping blind, getting blasted drunk, and otherwise punting cash.
You wouldnt, but but that's how this room is (even though everyone is under the impression that every S. Florida room is a gold mine).

If you happen to play in a room that nobody has ever even heard of a bomb pot, maybe 1% of players drink, and the avg age is 70+....you probably dont want to call blind shoves for 200BBs without a bigger edge than A7. Youre never getting that money back if you lose and its going to greatly affect your mindset. You arent going to play your A game going forward. That alone will offset any 5-10% equity edge you had in the blind shove hands.

Now if your room has this kind of monkey business going on quite often then go for it. You'll come out ahead long term.

Marshman called the blind shoves with AJ, KQ and A7. Not bad hands at all to call a blind shove with. Hes definitely ahead of random hands. However, this is clearly results oriented but demonstrates how bad a hit you can take if you are unlucky.

He had AJ vs 22....$900 each......47% equity
KQ vs 97..$1000 each...64% equity
A7 vs AA..$1600 each....7% equity. No way Im calling 300BB+ with A7

So again, even though the first 2 hands are fine to call blind shoves with (if they 100% were really blind), and the 3rd is still ahead of a blind hand even though I would muck it for sure.

Marshman still was way way behind in total equity. Unless this kind of thing happens in your room all the time, its just not worth making these calls IMO. The risk is not worth the reward and you will never get to the "long term" for them to even out.
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Old 06-06-2019, 10:04 AM   #23822
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mike... that post just shows a fundamental misunderstanding of Expected Value.

feel free to turn down clear +EV spots if you can't handle it mentally / aren't rolled for the variance but what you are trying to argue is just mathematically incorrect

what his actual hands were has absolutely no relevance
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Old 06-06-2019, 10:15 AM   #23823
Garick
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Originally Posted by Dizzyqtp View Post
mike... that post just shows a fundamental misunderstanding of Expected Value.

feel free to turn down clear +EV spots if you can't handle it mentally / aren't rolled for the variance but what you are trying to argue is just mathematically incorrect

what his actual hands were has absolutely no relevance
Quoted for truth. What can happen is a red herring. What matters is what is expected to happen, and since we're talking blind shoves, that means each of those equities should be figured against a random hand.
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Old 06-06-2019, 10:34 AM   #23824
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If the game is so completely terrible, you shouldn't be passing up the chance to score the biggest win you'll have in weeks just because it's *less* likely that you'll lose than you'll win.
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Old 06-06-2019, 10:35 AM   #23825
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No, I understand the math. I'm just saying there are other factors involved. If this guy is blind shoving every hand, I can probably wait for stronger hands than A7. If hes blind shoving now and then, he probably sucks at poker badly enough that I have a much bigger advantage over him than 5-10% in standard poker hands.

Having said everything Ive said, Im not adverse to going to war with maniacs. We have 1 maniac who comes in randomly now and then. The last time I played with him, this happened...

Maniac is in LP. 2 guys limp. I limp KT in MP, knowing full well the maniac is going to raise and the limpers are going to call. Maniac goes $35. BB and both limpers call. Then I jam my $550 ish. I know my KT is ahead of his range and I know this guy will almost never fold after raising.

The maniac called with Q6 and I won. One of the limp/callers folded AK.

I only mention that hand to show Im not afraid at all of spots like this at all. I talked about all of the other stuff because I find it hard to believe that Marshman's drastic downswing happened right after he lost the 3 blind shoves and that they arent related.
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