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Old 04-06-2019, 05:29 PM   #23501
Shai Hulud
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Quote:
Originally Posted by APG View Post
Down $4k over 50 hours at 1/2? You've got bigger problems on your hands than variance.

And you're admittedly playing subpar? Pumping the brakes with less than 50 hours of play? If you're a winning player and are at all invested in your poker results/income, you would just put in more volume (both on and off the tables).

1/2 and 2/5 are both "Wow this is so easy" games.

Your post doesn't have much to do with bankroll management and more to do with tilt/mental game/and just venting your beat to us.
-4k in 50 hours is easily possible for a winning player. I've gone -3k in less than that winning ~ 12BB/hr in 1/2. I've had multiple nights where I lost 2k due to pure runbad. In 1/2 games. It really depends how you play and how your player pool is. If you nit it up it's less likely to happen. If you fire lots of big bluffs, stack off relatively light, etc., swings are bigger.

Granted the probability of running that bad over 50 hours is very low, but what people seem not to consider is

A) You have tons of 50 hour stretches over 7 years, presumably. Typical player playing 1k hours a year would have 140 such 50 hour stretches.

B) There is a sampling bias when we look at results posted online due to observation selection effects, namely that people with unusually good or bad results are more likely to post them. Even if we say "odds of that happening are 1/x with x super low", are we taking into account just how many people play poker, and that it's the ones with more extreme results who are more likely to post in this thread?

-----

As for your last statement his post has more to do with tilt/mental game/etc. that may or may not be true and he could well be spewing, but the knee-jerk reaction that running bad = playing bad is just false.
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Old 04-07-2019, 07:06 PM   #23502
DumbosTrunk
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Anyone here file taxes for poker income before? Do I just include it as additional income in schedule 1?
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Old 04-07-2019, 07:15 PM   #23503
Garick
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Yup, on line 21, AFAIK.

Ironically, I found this post while taking a break in doing my taxes
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Old 04-07-2019, 07:46 PM   #23504
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Yup, on line 21, AFAIK.

Ironically, I found this post while taking a break in doing my taxes


Fish itt
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Old 04-07-2019, 07:46 PM   #23505
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Hi all,

I play recreationally so forgive me. I usually have on hand about 5 buy ins at all times

Whenever I get significant over that I deposit it at the bank...

Question is is this normal?

Sometimes I go every other month and last month I had a 5k deposit

Is this okay?
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Old 04-07-2019, 07:57 PM   #23506
DumbosTrunk
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard32 View Post
Hi all,

I play recreationally so forgive me. I usually have on hand about 5 buy ins at all times

Whenever I get significant over that I deposit it at the bank...

Question is is this normal?

Sometimes I go every other month and last month I had a 5k deposit

Is this okay?
Open a retirement account and put it there. Up to $5,500 ($6,000 starting this year) is tax deductible.

That's what I did.

I don't carry more than $600 on me (plus whatever I win, on the way home) in one session.
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Old 04-07-2019, 08:18 PM   #23507
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Originally Posted by DumbosTrunk View Post
Open a retirement account and put it there. Up to $5,500 ($6,000 starting this year) is tax deductible.

That's what I did.

I don't carry more than $600 on me (plus whatever I win, on the way home) in one session.

I do that already but I mean I just go to a regular bank now. So far it’s been okay
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Old 04-07-2019, 08:30 PM   #23508
El Barbero
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Originally Posted by DumbosTrunk View Post
Open a retirement account and put it there. Up to $5,500 ($6,000 starting this year) is tax deductible.
Bad idea unless you are over 59.5 years old. If it's your bankroll then accessing it will get you charged taxes and fees for early withdrawal.
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Old 04-07-2019, 08:33 PM   #23509
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Does your casino have player's banks? I just keep my poker money on deposit at the casino.
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Old 04-07-2019, 09:07 PM   #23510
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Originally Posted by ralphykid67 View Post
Slightly off topic but relevant to BR management-

Currently in the middle of the biggest downswing of my poker career. Been playing seriously (studying/tracking) for about 7 years and played 7 years or so before that not so seriously lol.

Anyways...I'm down about $4k right now for 2019 over about 50hrs at 1/2 $500max game. Sample size is quite small I realize. Just saying in 7 years I've never gone through a stretch like this where 90% of the time I sit down to play I'm losing 50-200bbs. Variance really does go both ways.

Yes I admit i'm not playing my A+ game due to all the frustration. That's one reason my sample size is so small; I had to pump the brakes and not play as much. Also worth noting that I was transitioning to 2/5 before this started. Moved down to 1/2 to regather confidence and BR and here I am getting destroyed at the smaller stake.

For all of you young bucks out there getting into the game, currently printing money, thinking wow this is so easy, remember that it's not going to last. You will get beaten down, and beaten down further than you ever thought was possible. Bankroll Management folks! Peace.
You've got a ton of experience so this may not be applicable or may be something you've already considered but, maybe moving down has infected you with an irreverence for the money causing you to tilt from the loose/tight and passive/aggressive standards you know to be correct. Or, a desire(which, like fear, is the mind killer) to make your money back quickly so you can get on to surpassing new milestones in your journey has infected you with can't-win-by-folding syndrome or some similar ailment.

I think, if you play a morning game with omc's, you can just keep tightening up until you start printing money, find your footing, gain your confidence and then have the balance to open up your game again.
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Old 04-08-2019, 12:08 PM   #23511
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Originally Posted by DK Barrel View Post
So the moral of the story is... maybe tomorrow's losing regs are today's winning regs
Yeah, I can really see this being the case.

I would guess that if you took any reg in my room and stuck them with 9 random people off the street in a poker game, that the reg would destroy that game long term. But overall that reg is likely a long term loser in the poker room, mostly because he and the other regs are devoured by rake, and only the small percentage at the top come out winners.

Gjustspitballin',couldbewrongG
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Old 04-08-2019, 12:19 PM   #23512
cannabusto
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard32 View Post
Hi all,

I play recreationally so forgive me. I usually have on hand about 5 buy ins at all times

Whenever I get significant over that I deposit it at the bank...

Question is is this normal?

Sometimes I go every other month and last month I had a 5k deposit

Is this okay?
It is probably fine unless you get audited. Then, it's probably bad.

In our state, it is very rough to claim your recreational winnings because you are taxed on gross, not net, winnings. Unless it's your profession.

I may or may not use cash for things like groceries, car repairs, home repairs/remodels, or other such things where you may be able to spend a significant amount and cash is practical. Idk how it would work if you began playing 5/T plo and started raking tho.
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Old 04-08-2019, 12:28 PM   #23513
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Originally Posted by cannabusto View Post
It is probably fine unless you get audited. Then, it's probably bad.

In our state, it is very rough to claim your recreational winnings because you are taxed on gross, not net, winnings. Unless it's your profession.

I may or may not use cash for things like groceries, car repairs, home repairs/remodels, or other such things where you may be able to spend a significant amount and cash is practical. Idk how it would work if you began playing 5/T plo and started raking tho.
Ohhh I see thanks a lot!! As always I appreciate ur feedback!

How would one get audited for thhat?
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Old 04-08-2019, 12:29 PM   #23514
XXX555666
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

I also didn’t know if it was normal or common or like out of the ordinary to deposit like 2k every other month or month at the bank
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Old 04-08-2019, 12:41 PM   #23515
cannabusto
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Assuming you have a normal job, auditing is more or less random. The IRS may audit something like 1/1000 normal tax returns. I believe those with businesses, complicated finances, etc, are much more likely to be audited.

Depositing four figure cash sums occasionally is normal. Many people are paid in cash. Many people own cash businesses. Wedding gifts, bar mitzvah, everyone chipped in for a cremation and you wrote the check, etc. It's whatever.
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Old 04-08-2019, 12:47 PM   #23516
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Originally Posted by cannabusto View Post
Assuming you have a normal job, auditing is more or less random. The IRS may audit something like 1/1000 normal tax returns. I believe those with businesses, complicated finances, etc, are much more likely to be audited.

Depositing four figure cash sums occasionally is normal. Many people are paid in cash. Many people own cash businesses. Wedding gifts, bar mitzvah, everyone chipped in for a cremation and you wrote the check, etc. It's whatever.
Thank you very much!
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Old 04-08-2019, 01:51 PM   #23517
johnny_on_the_spot
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard32 View Post
I also didn’t know if it was normal or common or like out of the ordinary to deposit like 2k every other month or month at the bank
its called structuring. it's illegal if your purpose is to evade taxes. what you do/do not report to the irs is your call. i believe over 10k/month usually triggers something
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Old 04-08-2019, 02:00 PM   #23518
DK Barrel
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Originally Posted by Richard32 View Post
I also didn’t know if it was normal or common or like out of the ordinary to deposit like 2k every other month or month at the bank
I've been asked about low 4-figgy cash deposits at the bank. I tell them honestly it's from poker and there's no issue.

My bank may or may not be filing SARs -- it's not my concern because it really is legal poker winnings.

I do not suggest lying about your taxes if you owe on gambling winnings.
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Old 04-08-2019, 02:04 PM   #23519
GatorXP
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Quote:
Originally Posted by DK Barrel View Post
I've been asked about low 4-figgy cash deposits at the bank. I tell them honestly it's from poker and there's no issue.



My bank may or may not be filing SARs -- it's not my concern because it really is legal poker winnings.



I do not suggest lying about your taxes if you owe on gambling winnings.
ATM deposits ftw
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Old 04-08-2019, 02:25 PM   #23520
ZippyThePinhead
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Originally Posted by Angrist View Post
A +-$1k variation at a $1/2 game is just completely natural noise. That's like 3-4 hands going the wrong way.

When you plot results you can see that pretty easily, even if the overall trend is still up.
Completely agree.

Out of the 17 1/3 sessions I've played this year, 3 have been greater than $1k swings.

6 hours -$1,200
10 hours +$1,073
6 hours +$1,291

$1k is meaningless.





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Old 04-08-2019, 04:00 PM   #23521
DumbosTrunk
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard32 View Post
I do that already but I mean I just go to a regular bank now. So far it’s been okay
If your question is whether you should leave a paper trail of your winnings and not pay taxes on them (if you made over $10k total last year), don't do that, unless you want to risk a big pain in the a$$.
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Old 04-08-2019, 04:19 PM   #23522
El Barbero
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Originally Posted by GatorXP View Post
ATM deposits ftw
Lol if you think this will make your bank less likely to file a SAR.
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Old 04-08-2019, 04:36 PM   #23523
XXX555666
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Originally Posted by DumbosTrunk View Post
If your question is whether you should leave a paper trail of your winnings and not pay taxes on them (if you made over $10k total last year), don't do that, unless you want to risk a big pain in the a$$.
It’s not that. I won a BBJ this year and had got a 1099 or whatever last year as well bc I won a table share and filed.

I just didn’t know if the bank is wary of someone depositing that much money routinely but they have never questioned me about it at all.

I have yet to make a single deposit >10k but over the past year I have deposited >10k in poker earnings
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Old 04-08-2019, 04:38 PM   #23524
XXX555666
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[QUOTE=DK Barrel;54997428]I've been asked about low 4-figgy cash deposits at the bank. I tell them honestly it's from poker and there's no issue.

My bank may or may not be filing SARs -- it's not my concern because it really is legal poker winnings.

I do not suggest lying about your taxes if you owe on gambling winnings.[/QUOTE

So theoretically all recreation players “should” be reporting their poker income/tracking it right? What about the majority who do not?
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Old 04-08-2019, 04:57 PM   #23525
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard32 View Post
So theoretically all recreation players “should” be reporting their poker income/tracking it right?
yes

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard32 View Post
What about the majority who do not?
that's up to those individuals. they'll have to deal with the consequences if they ever get caught.
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