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Old 04-02-2019, 08:01 AM   #23426
XtraScratch8
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Originally Posted by DumbosTrunk View Post
Yeah, but it's not a typical staking arrangement in that I can't afford to play; I simply don't have access to this site. I thought perhaps giving him the initial buy in ($25) and then giving him 25% of whatever I win as a user's fee?
I think in this spot I would make sure to leave no less than $50 aside for him, and work on running up the other $50 up for yourself. You could always just ask him what he thinks is fair as well. And yes, doing this is technically against the rules.
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Old 04-02-2019, 08:38 AM   #23427
Garick
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

It's more than technically against the rules. Figure out what it will take to get your own account and don't risk your friend's account and your money that is in it.
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Old 04-02-2019, 08:54 AM   #23428
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Where are you playing 1/3 with a $2 promo drop? Venetian? If so is it worth the $2 they take on a $10 pot compared to playing 1/3 at Bellagio or Aria with no promo drop?
No I play in Cleveland. Good question long term... I have no idea. I won a 5k BBJ a few weeks ago tho
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Old 04-02-2019, 08:55 AM   #23429
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$2 promo drop is a great thing as long as it's not an insanely high variance promo like a BBJ or royal flush jackpot, etc. All of the money is supposed to come back to players so it's not really rake, and depending on the promo the drop is even likely to be +EV for you because tighter hand ranges are going to have higher promo EV generally. The right kind of promos also draw in fish, and promos make people play worse (like checking down sets for high hands)
They have had excellent promos lately and it seems the room is thriving recently because of it.

I did win a 5k BBJ but I don’t include it in my winrate.

Agree lots of people ply bad due to the promo
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Old 04-02-2019, 03:22 PM   #23430
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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It's more than technically against the rules. Figure out what it will take to get your own account and don't risk your friend's account and your money that is in it.
Heard. I'll just drop all this and try to find a way to get my own account at some point. I tried getting an ACR account but it was immediately suspended.

It was fun while it lasted.
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Old 04-02-2019, 03:53 PM   #23431
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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It's more than technically against the rules. Figure out what it will take to get your own account and don't risk your friend's account and your money that is in it.
Hahahahaha, truth. It’s not just a technicality.
It’s been over a decade since I played online, but Garick speaks the truth here.
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Old 04-02-2019, 04:02 PM   #23432
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

I'd suggest you quit your friend's account as soon as possible. I don't know how much ACR cares about enforcement but what you're doing is very easy to detect if they bothered. Especially as you already have a frozen account of your own.
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Old 04-04-2019, 10:20 AM   #23433
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Originally Posted by DumbosTrunk View Post
Heard. I'll just drop all this and try to find a way to get my own account at some point. I tried getting an ACR account but it was immediately suspended.

It was fun while it lasted.
I play mostly small stakes PLO on ACR.

The odds of grinding up a single buy-in (which seems to be what you're saying here; correct me if I'm wrong) are not good (to be kind), unless you go on a long, mad heater (which, though unlikely, is within the realm of possibility).

Apart from the low-stakes rake trap, there tend to be semi-competent regs at online low stakes (not to mention some bots and colluders), who'll make it hard to progress without a significant roll.

While you might get away with grinding up from 20 (or even 10) buy-ins live, you really need 50-100 BI's online, especially at low stakes.
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Old 04-04-2019, 11:38 AM   #23434
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Originally Posted by flowrider View Post
I play mostly small stakes PLO on ACR.

The odds of grinding up a single buy-in (which seems to be what you're saying here; correct me if I'm wrong) are not good (to be kind), unless you go on a long, mad heater (which, though unlikely, is within the realm of possibility).

Apart from the low-stakes rake trap, there tend to be semi-competent regs at online low stakes (not to mention some bots and colluders), who'll make it hard to progress without a significant roll.

While you might get away with grinding up from 20 (or even 10) buy-ins live, you really need 50-100 BI's online, especially at low stakes.
This seems crazy to me. How and why could this be true? 50 BI minimum? Is that just PLO? I can't imagine low stakes being that swingy for NLH...
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Old 04-04-2019, 11:40 AM   #23435
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*** Official Winrates, bankrolls, and finances ***

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Originally Posted by c0rnBr34d View Post
This seems crazy to me. How and why could this be true? 50 BI minimum? Is that just PLO? I can't imagine low stakes being that swingy for NLH...


It’s about right.

Just think about it this way, your 4-8 tabling online you have 4 to 8 buy ins on the table at once minimum. With 50 bi even that could be 20 percent of roll almost.

Personally I like 40 bi for me, 4-6 tabling plo and Holdem depending on the game and time.
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Old 04-04-2019, 11:50 AM   #23436
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It’s about right.

Just think about it this way, your 4-8 tabling online you have 4 to 8 buy ins on the table at once minimum. With 50 bi even that could be 20 percent of roll almost.

Personally I like 40 bi for me, 4-6 tabling plo and Holdem depending on the game and time.
But couldn't you single or double table your way up as you roll increases? Is it just time consuming and tedious to run up a roll without 4-8 tabling or are you saying it's impossible or not worth it?

Even though you have more in play at the same time, the sessions are all independent. It's not like you're going to the felt in all 8 sessions right?
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Old 04-04-2019, 01:28 PM   #23437
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

I don't think the number of tables matters for your BR requirement that way. They're still independent.

PLO is just vastly swingier than NLHE.
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Old 04-04-2019, 01:38 PM   #23438
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Originally Posted by c0rnBr34d View Post
This seems crazy to me. How and why could this be true? 50 BI minimum? Is that just PLO? I can't imagine low stakes being that swingy for NLH...
You're right. It is crazy. Good players do not lose 50-100 BI playing low stakes online.
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Old 04-04-2019, 02:01 PM   #23439
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Originally Posted by typesick View Post
You're right. It is crazy. Good players do not lose 50-100 BI playing low stakes online.
It's PLO. Good players probably never go broke in NLHE, but many will in PLO.
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Old 04-04-2019, 04:49 PM   #23440
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Originally Posted by DumbosTrunk View Post
It's PLO. Good players probably never go broke in NLHE, but many will in PLO.
Good players don't go broke at all? Or they dont go broke with 50+ BI? I'd have to disagree strongly with the former.
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Old 04-04-2019, 06:04 PM   #23441
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances



1/3 NL
124 hrs, avg session 2.5 hrs
6.32$hr, 2.1BB
Definitely not playing my a-game, you can tell just by the graph. Nearly every losing session has an equal winning session after it.
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Old 04-05-2019, 03:55 AM   #23442
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

I’m sure I’ve asked this before in the past but there is a new roster of posters ITT so I’m curious if there are any new opinions.

Any good rules of thumb for deciding if a heavily raked game is profitable or not? Obviously this is a rather complicated problem to tackle with various variables involved but in just trying to get in the ballpark
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Old 04-05-2019, 06:43 AM   #23443
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

If my only option is a heavily raked game at a card room I'd check Meetup to see if I can find home games.

There are about 2-3 games a night in my area ranging from 0.25/0.50 to a big 2/5 ($500-$2000) all with no rake. That being said we don't have a casino and non raked home games are legal here.

Also know that you are paying for less rake in the form of cheating, potentially being robbed, etc. So you need to be very conscience about what's going on.
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Old 04-05-2019, 10:42 AM   #23444
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

OK here's an update everyone.

1,250 hours, 61% cashed, 4.26 bb/hr., std. dev. 75.09 bb/hr., 1/3 $8.4/hr. (987 hours), 2/5 $69.2/hr. (133 hours). 125 hours/10% is a mix of 5/10 (1hr. -$85/hr.), 0.25/0.5 home games (18 hrs. $30/hr.), 1/2 (50 hrs. $4.2/hr.), 3/5 (6hrs. $142/hr.), and 1/2 PLO (52 hours -$25/hr.).

Monthly breakdown:

2018

July: $17.1/hr. (62 hrs.)
August: $24/hr. (154 hrs.)
September: $19/hr. (98 hrs.)
October: -$1/hr. (155 hrs.)
November: -$10/hr. (211 hrs.)
December: $27/hr. (120 hrs.)

2019

January: $17/hr. (117 hrs.)
February: $17/hr. (151 hrs.)
March: $28/hr. (163 hrs.)
April: $58/hr. (15 hrs.)
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Old 04-05-2019, 10:47 AM   #23445
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Anything to be said about two of your most played hours months being your only two losing months?
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Old 04-05-2019, 10:56 AM   #23446
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Originally Posted by de4df1sh View Post
I’m sure I’ve asked this before in the past but there is a new roster of posters ITT so I’m curious if there are any new opinions.

Any good rules of thumb for deciding if a heavily raked game is profitable or not? Obviously this is a rather complicated problem to tackle with various variables involved but in just trying to get in the ballpark
If somewhere close to 75 bb's an hour are being taken off the table, I would say its close to unbeatable. Maybe even closer to 60.
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Old 04-05-2019, 11:19 AM   #23447
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Originally Posted by tellypl View Post
If somewhere close to 75 bb's an hour are being taken off the table, I would say its close to unbeatable. Maybe even closer to 60.
My 1/3 NL game has a 10% rake to a max of $8, plus a $1 BBJ drop, and of course most people tip $1+ per pot (although pots taken down preflop aren't raked). $400 max BI, although most BI for much less (ex. I currently only BI / top up to $200), although you can get decent stack sizes at some tables. At 30 hands an hour (which is what we were getting when I did some tests last year), I would guesstimate that *easily* $200+ (66bb+) is coming off the table per hour (it may be worse, I admit I've never done an actual rake tracking test). And yet the game is also still easily beatable (although not for anything remotely in unicorn ranges of 10bb+/hr, although obviously others will disagree).

Rake is obviously a *huge* money suck at these limits / BIs (and vastly underestimated) but it doesn't make my loose / aggro games unbeatable... yet.

As to where the line-in-the-sand is, I don't know, and is probably game dependent.

GcluelessrakenoobG
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Old 04-05-2019, 11:29 AM   #23448
gobbledygeek
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Originally Posted by Hawksfan12 View Post


1/3 NL
124 hrs, avg session 2.5 hrs
6.32$hr, 2.1BB
Definitely not playing my a-game, you can tell just by the graph. Nearly every losing session has an equal winning session after it.
Overall you've beaten the rake and are up money, so nothing to get terribly upset at.

In the end, it's an incredibly small sample size that really doesn't tell you a heckuva lot.

My first 103 hours this year I cruised along at 8.9 bb/hr.

My next 55 hours this year I'm doing the opposite at -5.8 bb/hr.

Both samples by the exact same guy playing the exact same method in the exact same game. And both samples are almost completely meaningless.

GthelongtermwilltelltheonlystorythatmattersG
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Old 04-05-2019, 11:32 AM   #23449
DumbosTrunk
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Originally Posted by KatoKrazy View Post
Anything to be said about two of your most played hours months being your only two losing months?
Good observation, but see February/March 2019 (lots of hours, good results). I played much shorter sessions on average these months....

Fall 2018 was runbad/playbad times, likely burnout as well. I was playing much longer sessions on back then. Also, I just wasn't quite as good at poker as I am now.

November was also when I took two weeks to play in Vegas (PLO and NLHE). The games I played in sucked and I ran like a$$ in PLO.
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Old 04-05-2019, 11:37 AM   #23450
tellypl
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Originally Posted by gobbledygeek View Post
My 1/3 NL game has a 10% rake to a max of $8, plus a $1 BBJ drop, and of course most people tip $1+ per pot (although pots taken down preflop aren't raked). $400 max BI, although most BI for much less (ex. I currently only BI / top up to $200), although you can get decent stack sizes at some tables. At 30 hands an hour (which is what we were getting when I did some tests last year), I would guesstimate that *easily* $200+ (66bb+) is coming off the table per hour (it may be worse, I admit I've never done an actual rake tracking test). And yet the game is also still easily beatable (although not for anything remotely in unicorn ranges of 10bb+/hr, although obviously others will disagree).

Rake is obviously a *huge* money suck at these limits / BIs (and vastly underestimated) but it doesn't make my loose / aggro games unbeatable... yet.

As to where the line-in-the-sand is, I don't know, and is probably game dependent.

GcluelessrakenoobG
For sure game dependent as always. 95%+ games just aren't good enough to overcome a 66bb+ being won by the house.

I know you have over 4k hours so it definitely means something, however the reality of the situation is ~100k hands is just not enough to be considered 'long term'. Also I know your games have been increasing in rake over those hours, so that's another thing. At one point there wasn't that many BB's being taken off.

Will we ever REALLY know? Probably not. Players are bad but to justify a table with that much being taken off still having long term winners is....tough
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