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Old 03-21-2019, 10:52 AM   #23326
Lozgod
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Re: Minimum Starting BR $1/$2nl question

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Originally Posted by ZippyThePinhead View Post
I always buy 3x Max from the cage and pull chips out of my pocket every time I'm $25 or more below
I don't play live much and when I have I never topped off unless I was down to half a stack. Then'd I'd pull cash out. If you top off with chips from your pocket do you have to announce it and have the dealer verify your top off amount?
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Old 03-21-2019, 10:59 AM   #23327
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Re: Minimum Starting BR $1/$2nl question

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If you top off with chips from your pocket do you have to announce it and have the dealer verify your top off amount?
I never do.



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Old 03-21-2019, 12:34 PM   #23328
gobbledygeek
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Re: Minimum Starting BR $1/$2nl question

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Originally Posted by Lozgod View Post
I don't play live much and when I have I never topped off unless I was down to half a stack. Then'd I'd pull cash out. If you top off with chips from your pocket do you have to announce it and have the dealer verify your top off amount?
It's possible this might differ from room to room. I always constantly top off my stack (after every hand) to my desired top-off point by adding chips from my pocket. So long as you're not going north (i.e. adding on to create a chip stack more than the maximum BI) it's likely fine. But you could just say "adding $25 to my stack" to the dealer the first couple of times and if you get no flack then there is likely no room rule against it (and thus likely no reason to constantly announce it). If you're concerned, perhaps talk to the floor about the top off rules.

FWIW, I never announce (I just top off) but I also make sure I never go north (not even so much as by a $1).

GcluelesstoppingoffnoobG
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Old 03-21-2019, 05:09 PM   #23329
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IMO, constantly topping off is right up there with buying into a $1000 max buy in game with 10 black chips. You might as well announce to everyone that you are a serious player. Its bad for the game.
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Old 03-21-2019, 05:16 PM   #23330
stlows
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Originally Posted by MikeStarr View Post
IMO, constantly topping off is right up there with buying into a $1000 max buy in game with 10 black chips. You might as well announce to everyone that you are a serious player. Its bad for the game.
So what do you suggest?
Add money when your stack go down to X% of max buyin with cash at the table?
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Old 03-21-2019, 05:39 PM   #23331
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You want to do whatever you can to fit in and act like a casual player. I dont keep extra chips in my pocket. If I want to add on to my stack I pull out a $100 bill or two from my pocket just like all the recs do.

My suggestion is, if playing 2/5 and buying in for $500, when you get down to $425ish, just buy in for another $100. If you buy in for $1000, top off when you get under $900.

Topping off is fine. What's not fine (IMO) is pulling a green chip out of your back pack every time you play a hand and drop below your buy in level.

You raise $25, get called and whiff the flop. Grab a green chip from your back pack and top off. Rinse and repeat 4 or 5 times. Not a good look IMO. I sometimes even see guys topping off 1 or 2 reds at a time just to stay right at the max buy in. Its a bit ridiculous.
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Old 03-21-2019, 05:43 PM   #23332
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Originally Posted by MikeStarr View Post
IMO, constantly topping off is right up there with buying into a $1000 max buy in game with 10 black chips. You might as well announce to everyone that you are a serious player. Its bad for the game.
I'm usually all about being "good for the game". I disagree here, as long as it is done discreetly.
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Old 03-21-2019, 05:46 PM   #23333
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Originally Posted by MikeStarr View Post
Topping off is fine. What's not fine (IMO) is pulling a green chip out of your back pack every time you play a hand and drop below your buy in level.

You raise $25, get called and whiff the flop. Grab a green chip from your back pack and top off. Rinse and repeat 4 or 5 times. Not a good look IMO. .
I do almost exactly this. I don't own a backpack though. For example the 1/ 3 with 400 Max game I play I buy 400 red, 400 green and 400 black from the cage prior to sitting down. When I top up I do try to do it discreetly. I bet that most of the time nobody even notices that I'm doing it.

Also maybe that I'm an old guy that doesn't fit The stereotype helps.


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Old 03-21-2019, 06:08 PM   #23334
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Originally Posted by KatoKrazy View Post
I'm usually all about being "good for the game". I disagree here, as long as it is done discreetly.
Yeah, there's being good for the game, but this is just too much.

It's one thing to say "dont wear headphones", and it's another to say "don't have the max stack and potentially lose longterm EV"
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Old 03-21-2019, 06:13 PM   #23335
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

I'm sure everyone is shuddering in their boots as I pull out a $5 chip to top off to $200 in my 1/3 NL / max BI $400 game.

With a lotta regs it's even a running joke ("you still got that squirrel in your pocket making chips?").

In fact, in our game where dealers are forced to do all money-to-chip transactions, it is actually a lot worse to do these transactions as it slows down the game. But, when in Rome.

GblameitonOCDorwhateverG
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Old 03-21-2019, 06:46 PM   #23336
MikeStarr
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Originally Posted by YGOchamp View Post
Yeah, there's being good for the game, but this is just too much.

It's one thing to say "dont wear headphones", and it's another to say "don't have the max stack and potentially lose longterm EV"
I know plenty of guys who constantly top up $25 at a time, over and over when there isn't even another guy with a max stack in the game. Some of these guys should use some common sense.
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Old 03-21-2019, 06:58 PM   #23337
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Originally Posted by MikeStarr View Post
I know plenty of guys who constantly top up $25 at a time, over and over when there isn't even another guy with a max stack in the game. Some of these guys should use some common sense.
There's good image reasons to always have a big stack.
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Old 03-21-2019, 07:29 PM   #23338
MikeStarr
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Originally Posted by KatoKrazy View Post
There's good image reasons to always have a big stack.
I disagree with that but if we stipulate that its true, there's no difference between $950 and $1000 in a $1000 max game.

Ive also never seen any proof that playing a $1000 stack is any higher EV than $700 or whatever number you want to pick. There are hands, very few and far between in most games, where you may make an extra $200 by having a full stack but there are also hands where you will lose an extra $200.

More importantly, there are hands where a guy who started with $500 may get a $300 turn all in called where a guy who started with $1000 will get a fold there (and makes $300 less) because villain knows there could be another $500 bet coming on the river. Obviously you can use that same affect to get folds when youre bluffing, but how often are we bluff shoving $500+ on the river after bluffing the turn? Very rarely.

The point is there is no way to measure whether or not, having an extra 100 or 200 makes any difference in win rate.....and the extra $25 people keep topping off absolutely makes no difference in win rate so why draw attention to yourself by doing it 5 times an hour?
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Old 03-21-2019, 07:34 PM   #23339
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Originally Posted by KatoKrazy View Post
There's good image reasons to always have a big stack.
I agree with this.

Also having tons and tons of $5 chips is better than having a stack of $25 (read what Bart says about it)
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Old 03-21-2019, 07:34 PM   #23340
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Also backpacks are the worst in poker

Last edited by XXX555666; 03-21-2019 at 07:34 PM. Reason: Typo
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Old 03-22-2019, 06:41 AM   #23341
Shai Hulud
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Originally Posted by MikeStarr View Post
IMO, constantly topping off is right up there with buying into a $1000 max buy in game with 10 black chips. You might as well announce to everyone that you are a serious player. Its bad for the game.
You're bad for the game.

Seriously though, most things winning players do to increase their expectation is not "good for the game". If I can do things to make the game better without sacrificing expectation, (like side bets, mandatory straddles, etc.) that's all well and good but I'm not going to avoid topping up under the dubious assumption doing so suddenly marks me as a grinder when I'm pretty much already marked as a white kid who looks in his lower 20s who carries a seat cushion, playing 2/5+. We can't all disguise ourselves as OMCs lol...

Also... people generally don't notice when you top up if use normal size chips (pulling out a 1k chip in a 2/5 calls attention obviously) versus cash. Some guy busts and pulls out 10 100 dollar bills people see that. But I raise 25 pre fire a 25 c bet x/f the turn and quietly add a couple greens after? Nobody notices, and if they do I don't think their play is going to change much (probably at all) based on whether I have 950 or 1000.

Bottom line, if you are better than the other deep stacks at the table you lose money by not covering them.
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Old 03-22-2019, 07:19 AM   #23342
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Originally Posted by Shai Hulud View Post
You're bad for the game.

Seriously though, most things winning players do to increase their expectation is not "good for the game". If I can do things to make the game better without sacrificing expectation, (like side bets, mandatory straddles, etc.) that's all well and good but I'm not going to avoid topping up under the dubious assumption doing so suddenly marks me as a grinder when I'm pretty much already marked as a white kid who looks in his lower 20s who carries a seat cushion, playing 2/5+. We can't all disguise ourselves as OMCs lol...

Also... people generally don't notice when you top up if use normal size chips (pulling out a 1k chip in a 2/5 calls attention obviously) versus cash. Some guy busts and pulls out 10 100 dollar bills people see that. But I raise 25 pre fire a 25 c bet x/f the turn and quietly add a couple greens after? Nobody notices, and if they do I don't think their play is going to change much (probably at all) based on whether I have 950 or 1000.

Bottom line, if you are better than the other deep stacks at the table you lose money by not covering them.
Adding a couple greens is one thing. Adding a couple greens means you dropped down to $925-$950 before adding on which is what I suggested. I'm talking about the guys who literally add on a green every single time they drop to $975. Those guys will be adding on 2-3 times as often and its very noticeable.
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Old 03-22-2019, 07:57 AM   #23343
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Originally Posted by MikeStarr View Post
I disagree with that but if we stipulate that its true, there's no difference between $950 and $1000 in a $1000 max game.

Ive also never seen any proof that playing a $1000 stack is any higher EV than $700 or whatever number you want to pick. There are hands, very few and far between in most games, where you may make an extra $200 by having a full stack but there are also hands where you will lose an extra $200.

More importantly, there are hands where a guy who started with $500 may get a $300 turn all in called where a guy who started with $1000 will get a fold there (and makes $300 less) because villain knows there could be another $500 bet coming on the river. Obviously you can use that same affect to get folds when youre bluffing, but how often are we bluff shoving $500+ on the river after bluffing the turn? Very rarely.

The point is there is no way to measure whether or not, having an extra 100 or 200 makes any difference in win rate.....and the extra $25 people keep topping off absolutely makes no difference in win rate so why draw attention to yourself by doing it 5 times an hour?
You are completely wrong. You always want to be as deep-stacked as possible, as that allows you more "play". If you have domination in big hands such as AA against KK, middle-set over bottom-set, or flush over flush, you want the full double up. Also, if you want to bluff, the 300 bet on the turn with money behind is more worrisome than a 300 all-in on the turn. The better you are at poker the more streets you want to play with maximum money behind. This is why the bigger games are uncapped.
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Old 03-22-2019, 08:58 AM   #23344
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You are completely wrong. You always want to be as deep-stacked as possible, as that allows you more "play". If you have domination in big hands such as AA against KK, middle-set over bottom-set, or flush over flush, you want the full double up. Also, if you want to bluff, the 300 bet on the turn with money behind is more worrisome than a 300 all-in on the turn. The better you are at poker the more streets you want to play with maximum money behind. This is why the bigger games are uncapped.
You also save money when you get KK vs AA, flush over flush, set over set, etc., and as those should happen at same frequency (if you go broke everytime), those pot shouldnt change you WR...it seems pretty obv.

I'm not saying youre not right, but your argument is inapplicable
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Old 03-22-2019, 09:03 AM   #23345
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

The whole idea of covering is that it makes sense if we are better than our V's . Obviously if we go broke every time we get in a raising war pre with KK and are several hundred BBs deep, we are not better than our Vs and should not be looking to cover them.

This is a silly argument.
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Old 03-22-2019, 09:19 AM   #23346
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*** Official Winrates, bankrolls, and finances ***

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The whole idea of covering is that it makes sense if we are better than our V's . Obviously if we go broke every time we get in a raising war pre with KK and are several hundred BBs deep, we are not better than our Vs and should not be looking to cover them.

This is a silly argument.


Yea but the argument is if it’s bad for the game or not. It may not seem bad to the 6 other regfish doing it, but the 1 or 2 whales are gonna either feel uncomfortable or just leave.

Sacrificing a couple dollars of EV in the off chance you cooler any other reg with a full stack for the sake of keeping a whale or super passive fish bleeding their stack out (usually 30-40 bbs at a time) happy and in the game is more important.

If you don’t get that idk what to tell you.

I add 100 cash money when I get below the 100 mark (-20bb in my game usually). And I always make a spectacle about it, screaming “checks” to the chip runner, or rummaging around my pocket pretending my wallets empty til I pull out a 100 from my other pocket.

Go to the game with 300 or 400 in red play a couple hands then add my 1-200.

Little things like this add up to a better environment for fun players and bad regs. The guy adding $17 in chips after whiffing a raise or whatever is a nit whose getting no action from me.

Glgl

Edit to add - this only applies to 2/5 (500+ but in) and up imo. I don’t think anyone notices or really cares in smaller games
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Old 03-22-2019, 09:43 AM   #23347
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No, the argument that it doesn't make a difference in winrate is silly. The argument about the effect on the table dynamics is legit.

FWIW, In 100BB max BI games, I buy a few greens for my pocket and top up if I get down below about 90BBs. I don't think it hurts the game, but I'm not obsessive about it, and I do so quietly. Still, especially in 1/3, greens are a bit rare, so I'm sure anyone paying close attention notices. It doesn't seem to effect anyone too much, but I could see ways of doing it that could look predatory. Nowhere near as much as other behaviors though, imo. Frankly, I think adding on with cash is much more obvious and likely to be interpreted poorly.

In my current games, buy in is capped at 167 BBs or 3/4 of the big stack (whichever is bigger), so really no one notices or cares. I almost always BI at 100 BBs and add on if the game conditions seem good for it. Being able to do that without drawing attention to myself is, I believe, valuable.

Last edited by Garick; 03-22-2019 at 10:11 AM. Reason: typo
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Old 03-22-2019, 09:53 AM   #23348
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I also top up from my pocket discreetly and have never had a single comment about adding ~5-10bb's. Rec players don't notice these things generally, and if they do, they don't care. Reg's are more likely to notice it but they're regs so who cares? Easier to add chips from your pocket than to top up with cash at the table.
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Old 03-22-2019, 10:12 AM   #23349
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There’s a fine line where that becomes nitty and gets you in my (probably the whale whose pissed idk we’ll see) no action camp. i would probably say 10-12.5 bbs is that line.
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Old 03-22-2019, 12:29 PM   #23350
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Not entirely the same issue as topping off $25 at a time, but tables that allow you to buy from the dealer are great for the game. Very often I will see someone toss a $100 to the dealer to top off, and 2-3 more people follow suit. Monkey see monkey do.

Sadly this structure is a dying breed in most card rooms.
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