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Old 01-19-2019, 10:56 AM   #23001
squid face
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

wells fargo safe deposit agreement explicitly states that as the box holder you will not keep weapons or cash in the box.

jus sayin

but jots makes a valid point

again jus sayin
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Old 01-19-2019, 12:44 PM   #23002
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Re: bamk roll management in live low-stakes

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Originally Posted by Lejosu View Post
hi guys,
i have a bank roll question. I am planning to play 2/3 NL 500 max BI.
currently i have no bankroll. I am starting a full time job giving me 1k a week. i can pretty much save $500 a week. for these stakes i have read that 20x BI bankroll is required = $10,000

My question is that for me to save 10,000 i will have to wait 20 weeks until i can start playing.

if i have this income am i able to start before then? Im thinking if i save for 4 weeks and start to play and keep tabs on the bankroll

Is there some othee variable that comes to play ?

any advice is appreciated
If you really have a cash flow of $500/week, your effective bankroll is huge. Assuming a 5%/year time preference rate, that is gives you effectively a bankroll of $520,000, which is big enough to play a lot higher than 1-3. Even if you were to devote that $500/week to paying off 18%/year interest on a cash advance on a credit card (no, do not actually do this) you could give yourself a roll of $144,000.

I would save up for two or three weeks, and then hit the casino, adding to your roll as needed. Your risk of ruin is nil, because the remedy for "ruin" is to wait a week or two.

Quote:
Originally Posted by monikrazy View Post
You should buy in for $300, which is 100 big blinds, and not 500.
Buying in short limits your upside. Learn to fricking play deeper-stack poker. And the difference between a 100bb stack and a 166bb stack is not big enough to matter significantly. (Mostly, it changes bet sizing when you are aiming to get it in in two or three streets.)
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Old 01-19-2019, 01:12 PM   #23003
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Originally Posted by SABR42 View Post
The single best thing for the game is the straddle, imo.

Fundamentally correct play in a 2 blind NLHE game is simply pretty tight. You aren't making the game better opening crap in MP, you are just shooting yourself in the foot. A 3 blind game incentivizes you to play more hands out of the blinds as it's mathematically correct to do so. Although you do have to open tighter from the button vs 3 blinds compared to vs 2 blinds.
Wait, what?

In every three-blind game I have ever played in (all in Northern California) the button posts one of the blinds, and can therefore open it up a bit in unraised pots, because of the double advantage of position and getting a discount/great pot odds for calling.
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Old 01-19-2019, 01:30 PM   #23004
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Most places that allow straddles, it is an UTG straddle. In some places they allow BTN or "Mississippi" straddles. California is the only place I have been with a formal 3-blind game, and in those games, the extra blind is usually equivalent to the SB (e.g. 1/1/3) and on the BTN. That is a pretty rare game, though, and pretty much limited to California, mostly in the northern half.
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Old 01-19-2019, 03:58 PM   #23005
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Quote:
Originally Posted by squid face View Post
wells fargo safe deposit agreement explicitly states that as the box holder you will not keep weapons or cash in the box.

jus sayin

but jots makes a valid point

again jus sayin
What does it say about poker chips? Take hundos home with you.
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Old 01-19-2019, 04:09 PM   #23006
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Originally Posted by AlanBostick View Post
Wait, what?

In every three-blind game I have ever played in (all in Northern California) the button posts one of the blinds, and can therefore open it up a bit in unraised pots, because of the double advantage of position and getting a discount/great pot odds for calling.
I'm talking about a mandatory UTG straddle.
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Old 01-19-2019, 04:34 PM   #23007
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Quote:
Originally Posted by squid face View Post
wells fargo safe deposit agreement explicitly states that as the box holder you will not keep weapons or cash in the box.

jus sayin

but jots makes a valid point

again jus sayin
That may be true, but it being against the ToS is much different than being illegal.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk
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Old 01-19-2019, 08:59 PM   #23008
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Major problem with a safe is that the bank insurance is not covering it. So if there is a robbery or a fire you are f**.
But you could put chips in there.
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Old 01-19-2019, 10:26 PM   #23009
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Is it normal at 1-2 cash to experience huge swings? My last 5-6 sessions have been horrendous. Iím on a 6 buyin downswing where I think Iím playing too loose pre and cbetting stupid wide in spots. Iíve had multiple sessions where Iíve lost pretty big I feel.

In past 8 sessions, Iíve lost 2-3 buyins 4 times, had one 2 buyin winning session, and other sessions have been extremely small wins or tiny losses.

Iíll list the session dollar counts here: -740, +467, -318, -407, -70, +20, +60, -510. Is this not a normal swing for 1-2?

Iíve lost some big pots where Iíve been ahead (KK against AsQs on a 10s-8-s-2x flop board for 700-750 dollar pot) etc. Iíve been really getting smashed with big pocket pairs etc and have been faring very poorly in all in spots with decent amount of equity spots (think 30-60% equity when all in). Should we not be swinging this wild in cash? Iím really starting to question my game and the fact I tend to iso a little too wide along with cbetting aggressive in HU or 2-way flops without draws / made hands in spots where Iím in position generally (I tend to iso/ Cbet aggro when Iím in position against perceived bad players).

Just wanna check if this is standard variance in live cash? Iím just considering stopping playing or really nitting up my game as I feel 1-2 prolly can be beaten well with less variance if I just find folds a lot more. Iím very anti limping or limping behind and tend to raise or fold if people limp in front of me. The only type of hands I like to limps are small pps/ suited connectors / A-small card suited and when people limp in front of me. Sorry if this is a long ramble but want some feedback as Iíve been hemmoraging money as of late and really donít want to spew a bunch of buyins if I suck at cash games.

Prior to all of this I was up 1300 after maybe 55-60 hrs of play and last 40 hours have hitten a downswing to being -150 now so roughly 7+ buyins Iíve punted.
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Old 01-19-2019, 10:37 PM   #23010
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Those sound like reasonable swings for a $1/2 game. Depending on the BI. Are you buying for $200 or $300? Doesn't take much runbad to screw you over in a month.

But you might actually be too aggressive, or aggressive in the wrong spots. However, those are strategy questions for their own threads. Post a few hands for review and see what feedback you get.
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Old 01-19-2019, 10:49 PM   #23011
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Depends on the game really. I've played a "1/2" where 500bb or even 1000bb pots weren't that rare. Your streak would be pretty ho-hum there

Sounds standard to me. Don't turn into a nit, just fix your leaks. Even if you're getting unlucky there's always stuff you can do better. "Low variance style" is just a softer way of saying "I'm too much of a coward to take the money people are trying to throw at me"
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Old 01-19-2019, 11:00 PM   #23012
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DK Barrel View Post
Depends on the game really. I've played a "1/2" where 500bb or even 1000bb pots weren't that rare. Your streak would be pretty ho-hum there

Sounds standard to me. Don't turn into a nit, just fix your leaks. Even if you're getting unlucky there's always stuff you can do better. "Low variance style" is just a softer way of saying "I'm too much of a coward to take the money people are trying to throw at me"
Thanks for the feedback. I play in a 200 max buyin game that is super nitty. Almost no 3 or 4 bets and if they happen, opponents generally have qq+ / ak+. Itís difficult also bc high % of players buy in short like 50-100 which sucks bc I tend to stay at max almost all the time even if I have to reload.

Most of my all in spots, equity has been solid on my end . Maybe a few punts and tilt spew but nothing insane when Iím getting in say 80bbs+
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Old 01-20-2019, 01:15 AM   #23013
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Two things. Yes, downswings like this are pretty standard. For reference in my first 1000 hours of 1|2 I had 2 $2k downswings and one $3k downswing, but I still came out up $20k. Worse than normal play definitely contributed to the $3 downswing, but so think the others were normal for my skill level at the time.

The second thing is that it is more likely that you are losing due to inexperience and poor play than due to a downswing, simply due to the fact that you have a very small sample and already had a downswings like that. Either way you should just keep working on your game and keep playing the best poker you can and it should all work out. 1/2 is not hard to beat.
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Old 01-23-2019, 11:59 PM   #23014
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Re: bamk roll management in live low-stakes

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Originally Posted by AlanBostick View Post
Buying in short limits your upside. Learn to fricking play deeper-stack poker. And the difference between a 100bb stack and a 166bb stack is not big enough to matter significantly. (Mostly, it changes bet sizing when you are aiming to get it in in two or three streets.)
Poker community has such fetishes around being deep stacked.
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Old 01-24-2019, 12:22 AM   #23015
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Re: bamk roll management in live low-stakes

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Poker community has such fetishes around being deep stacked.
You mean it doesn't arouse you?
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Old 01-24-2019, 12:43 AM   #23016
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It arouses me when some really bad vegas regs who sits with 40 stacks of small denom chips slowly wittle down over the night, but still somehow has 800bbs left, only to lose it all in one hand to a short stack who had built their stack up to match the 800 partially through him, in a hand which this bad reg would tell everyone is a ridiculous cooler, but actually isn't.


But in all seriously, no. I am "aroused" by big hourlies, and that may or may not involve big pots and deep stacks. What I know is that people use deep stacks leading to big hourlies as a way to justify their ego's need to have a big stack, when they are just too bad and ignorant about poker and short vs deep stack edges and strategies to actually have any accurate judgement on such decisions.

Nobody knows how to play short stacks well because nobody wants to learn it, since it's so uncool. As a result, only fish do it, and as a result, we're accustomed to seeing poor results linked with short stacked.

Look at some of the biggest winners online in the toughest games, though, and you will see consistent short stackers. Some of these will be playing and not topping up even if their stack gets down to 6bbs, because the shorter they are the bigger their mathematical edge, which in those games matter more.

Of course in live games usually deeper is better, but things like tilt and bank roll concerns are also huge factors and live poker players are notoriously naive in how they deal with tilt, variance, and going busto, but, no, the ego of not being seen as a short stacker means they'd rather play 250bbs deep when they only have a 1500bb roll than sit with 50bbs, especially when 50bbs is much easier to guarantee a positive winrate if you have any kind of weakness strategically or tilt-wise. The shorter you are, the more immune you are to tilt or "brain fart" later street deep stacked spew if you know basic preflop strategy.
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Old 01-24-2019, 01:34 AM   #23017
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Yabbut you only have the short-stack advantage until you double or triple up. Then you have to either pick up or play deeper-stack poker.
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Old 01-24-2019, 01:36 AM   #23018
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Yeah what's wrong with that? That would be no different than if you bought in for that amount. It's an independent event, except when you first bought in, you have the option to buy for less, and in the latter, you're not allowed to have less, so you either take what option is offered to you, or you quit.

And honestly, if somehow you have a magical session where you run up your stack and have 25%+ of your roll in play or something, and that's a life changing amount of money, and the game is a combination of not amazing and aggro and making you play subpar, then leaving is certainly an option.

You want to eventually become the kind of player who can stay playing good games, or even just average games even if you're deep, but the first part of becoming a good player is knowing your strengths and limitations.
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Old 01-24-2019, 01:43 AM   #23019
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Originally Posted by Sol Reader View Post
, but the first part of becoming a good player is knowing your strengths and limitations.
Itís more like the last part, far easier said than done.
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Old 01-24-2019, 01:45 AM   #23020
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Right, and I would argue that it's linked with not buying into groupthink about things like how good players always have to buyin at least 100bbs or deep or cover the fish, regardless of the situation. It involves chipping away at your ego, or at least recognising why you do a thing, and how much of your arguments for it is actually logic or just rationalising.

As an example, my friend with a <100k roll sat at a very juicy and loose preflop 10/25/50/100 NL game where the minbuyin is 1k, and he gave himself a stoploss of 15k and decided to play 3 bullets of 5k instead of 15 bullets of 1k, or at least 6 bullets of 2.5k. That is an absurd decision for a long time pro and smart player to make.

Yeah your 5k bullets give you higher hourly than the 1k bullets, but the game runs for 5-8 hours, and he's very likely to go broke in the first 4 hours at 5k a buyin, and his hourly is clearly not that much higher than if he say at 1k, so his average winrate is much lower since a good chunk of the time he doesn't get to play and expose his edge for the full duration of the game.
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Old 01-24-2019, 10:05 AM   #23021
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

live nosebleed =/= typical LLSNL game =/= tough online games

just sayin...
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Old 01-24-2019, 12:27 PM   #23022
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Took me a *long* time (about 3300 hours == 7 years of recreational live play) to realize a lot of the benefits regarding playing shorterstacked that Sol is mentioning. Especially with regards to ego and mainly finally becoming comfortable enough with myself to being able to own where my personal wheelhouse / comfort level is. Plus also identifying that 100bbs in a loose LLSNL game where a standard raise is ~7x is actually a fairly shortstack game to begin with.

I'm going to reach 1000 hours of my new Super Nit method (which employs playing with a 66bb stack instead of a 100bb stack) this Sunday, so I'll hopefully be posting some giraffes next week. So far not overly impressive, but better than I had been doing leading up to it, better than I thought it would be, and has a bunch of promise (depending on how you interpret the giraffe).

GrecentshorterstackedconvertG
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Old 01-24-2019, 01:12 PM   #23023
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Can someone explain why it's mathematically correct to play with 60 bbs and not 100? I know that if you buy in for say 1k at a 5/10 and there's people sitting on 5k playing garbage hands and justifying playing them cause they're deep then yeah. But what is the difference between 60 and 100?

It's funny how you guys are talking about this. Bumped into a former Swedish pro poker player at Planet Hollywood. Was very surprised how he never topped up even when his stack dipped below 100 bbs (and the max buy in for 1/2 there is 150 bbs). If the math is right then it kinda makes sense but...probably not still at 1/2 cause players are so bad and just aren't gonna put you in tricky spots deep? Kinda confused.
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Old 01-24-2019, 01:31 PM   #23024
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@ Rat

If you look at my posts from early on, most of them started with "top up to 100bbs". Then I eventually slightly amended it to "if you feel you've got a big advantage over the table top up to 100bbs". Now I don't take a line on this at all, and basically do what you want. I still feel I have a slight advantage over the field when deep, so I'm not totally opposed to playing deep (which I'll be forced to do as my stack grows). However, I feel I have a *massive* advantage on the field playing short (taking advantage of my opponents major two leaks preflop with shortstacks, which are being way too aggressive and way too loose).

My evolution went as follows. Years ago, games were awesome. Flop a set from any position in a multiway limped pot (which most of them were) where someone has flopped TP in an SPR 20 pot? Awesome, you get the stack. So sitting on 100bbs made a lotta sense to take advantage of these spots. But as the games got tougher, this doesn't happen as much (it still happens from time to time, sure, but just not nearly as much). So now sitting on 100bb for IO purposes with your speculative hands doesn't really matter as much. And meanwhile playing TP hands is kinda difficult at 100bbs, especially with regards to setting up easy peasy SPRs, especially if some players can make your life difficult. So, if the IO aren't nearly as good as they once were, and playing TP hands is difficult, why not just move down to a 66bb stack, where playing TP hands is fairly trivial. You can still get the benefits of both worlds: easy peasy TP play, while still sometimes getting into ok IO spot with speculative hands in LP for cheap (which, over time, is likely the only place they are now really profitable anyways).

But that's just how I look at it, and many will disagree.

Gplayyourgame,imoG
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Old 01-24-2019, 02:45 PM   #23025
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sol Reader View Post
Right, and I would argue that it's linked with not buying into groupthink about things like how good players always have to buyin at least 100bbs or deep or cover the fish, regardless of the situation. It involves chipping away at your ego, or at least recognising why you do a thing, and how much of your arguments for it is actually logic or just rationalising.

As an example, my friend with a <100k roll sat at a very juicy and loose preflop 10/25/50/100 NL game where the minbuyin is 1k, and he gave himself a stoploss of 15k and decided to play 3 bullets of 5k instead of 15 bullets of 1k, or at least 6 bullets of 2.5k. That is an absurd decision for a long time pro and smart player to make.

Yeah your 5k bullets give you higher hourly than the 1k bullets, but the game runs for 5-8 hours, and he's very likely to go broke in the first 4 hours at 5k a buyin, and his hourly is clearly not that much higher than if he say at 1k, so his average winrate is much lower since a good chunk of the time he doesn't get to play and expose his edge for the full duration of the game.
As you likely know these higher stakes games have all kinds of on-and-off-table dynamics in play particularly when they (often) revolve around a single spot. Now, besides fading risk of ruin, I get that there can be other reasons for an uber-self-aware player not to cover the spot/buy in short. In a vacuum though, I do still see it as a disadvantage to only be able to take bites at the spot while your opponents can take it all in one hand (which in 4 blind games is often what happens). Of course, we don't live in a vacuum, and beyond your own reasons for 1-3k bullets, your 'short' stack actually might have a seriously negative impact on how the spot plays/plays back at you, especially if dealing with an action-whale who likely thrives/is playing the game to leverage his wealth and find pain points in his pro opponents. Even deeper than that, when the unicorn is in the game, (a game that was likely not a random event), it certainly is not going to be good for the health/life of the game itself when you sit down with 10 blacks, the whale notices, the pros notice, and you're now a borderline empty chair if you're not adding to the life of the party and just sitting there, waiting, jamming, reloading, waiting...
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