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Old 01-04-2019, 11:48 AM   #22901
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rant.
+1

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Sorry for the rant.
don't be sorry.
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Old 01-04-2019, 11:52 AM   #22902
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I think the effect of carrying a book at the table is at worst a slight negative, and it 100% helps me play more hours in an otherwise dull and miserable game, which makes it a net positive for me.

A book is not the same as ipad/headphones. When you are wearing headphones or watching a movie you are projecting that you want to be left alone. A book doesn't have the same effect and many people ask me what I'm reading and it can be a conversation starter in that way.
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Old 01-04-2019, 11:57 AM   #22903
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^ It was long, so for that I apologize. I also notice that gobbledygeek has a thread in the "must-read" stickies so it seems like he has a lot of respect. Atleast from the mods. His thread was created in like 2011 when the poker boom was a lot bigger so I think a lot of his nit mentality, that was acceptable during those times when a nit was a rarity and the player pools were massive, needs to be examined a little closer as being good/bad for the game.

Mods I dont mean to get off-topic. I actually think a lot of this stuff like reading a book at the table or style of play is relevant to winrates since we are talking about how your behavior affects the longevity of the game.
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Old 01-04-2019, 12:09 PM   #22904
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reading a book / watching on iPad are equally bad imo and both make you look like a nit grinder and are bad for the game.

headphones slightly less bad bc at least you can still give action / pay attention (though extremely annoying when people can't hear and have to ask questions to the dealer constantly)

I listen to music almost every session bc it helps me focus / stay entertained but always only use one earbud and take it out if there is a lot of conversation at the table.

my opinion.
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Old 01-04-2019, 12:37 PM   #22905
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Headphones user thinks headphones are less bad? Shocker!
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Old 01-04-2019, 12:41 PM   #22906
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over ear headphones / two earbuds are bad. I only use one earbud and am usually one of the most engaging in conversation at the table and use no earbud when it is a talkative table.

never miss action or slow the game down, play fast and give action so don't see the problem.
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Old 01-04-2019, 12:41 PM   #22907
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Also can someone please explain to me what "give action" means?

If it means that you are intentionally playing what you consider to be -EV hands for image purposes, then I maintain that it's a terrible idea.

That being said, my 3-bet frequency and BB-defend frequency are probably both quite a bit higher than most regs. But I don't consider those to be -EV hands.
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Old 01-04-2019, 12:43 PM   #22908
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not intentionally -ev no but willing to take ~0ev spots with recs to keep the game fun whenever possible.
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Old 01-04-2019, 12:49 PM   #22909
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The vast majority of poker players lose money trying to "give action" is how I see it.

I certainly try to play the max number of hands I can get away with, both pre and postflop, but almost everyone over-estimates what those ranges are, or they aren't taking all the factors into consideration.
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Old 01-04-2019, 12:49 PM   #22910
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Also can someone please explain to me what "give action" means?

If it means that you are intentionally playing what you consider to be -EV hands for image purposes, then I maintain that it's a terrible idea.

That being said, my 3-bet frequency and BB-defend frequency are probably both quite a bit higher than most regs. But I don't consider those to be -EV hands.
Give action means put $ in the pot.

It can be +EV or highly -EV depending on the spots you choose to put your $ in.

Raising 88, even from EP, is an example of +EV "giving action". You could easily just limp in with it and it wouldn't be much different in terms of your long term EV. But it benefits the overall game a lot more if you open with it. I mean, if your a newbie, I can see why you would play it passively, but for anyone on this forum, you should be good enough to open this hand.


I see a lot of nit regs in the casino that have TONS of experience playing NL, yet they are taking these weak/tight lines that make the game less fun.


Pots are smaller, which creates no incentive for players to bluff, fight for pots, or go on tilt.


It just becomes a cooler fest of who can fold the best and who can be the most patient. If you're a solid TAG, you can still beat these games, but they become less and less appealing for the fun players.


It's why you see some very deep stacked 1/2 games in sh*tty parts of the country. Fun players stay longer because they are in a very high action/ high variance game that doesn't make them feel like they are the only ones putting $ in the pot with the non nuts.


If you go to Vegas, the 2/5 is infested with tight regs that will make many loose tourists drop down in stakes or just do something else.
The only reason these nit regs make money is because the tourists just dont care about the $ as much and donate. But the torusists are donating less and less, as seen in the decline of higher games running.

Last edited by bodybuilder32; 01-04-2019 at 12:56 PM.
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Old 01-04-2019, 01:10 PM   #22911
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"Giving action" is just a stupid term that I hate with a passion, because I believe that my goal as a professional is to make the best decisions I can, and I don't owe anyone any "loose action."

That being said, I believe that in most cases the highest EV lines involve being selective but agressive pre-flop, and using overbets post-flop in certain situations. No one generally thinks I'm a nit unless I go card-dead for 4 hours (which does happen).
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Old 01-04-2019, 01:16 PM   #22912
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GG, what do you buy in for?
I now BI (and continually top up to after each hand) to $200 in my 1/3 NL game (which as of a couple of months ago increased it's maximum BI from $300 to $400 although very few people actually BI for the maximum).

While I believe I likely have a slight advantage over most of my opponents deep (hence why all my posts previous to my Super Nit posts started with "I'd likely top up my stack to the maximum if I believe I have an advantage over my opponents"), I now believe it isn't as large as the advantage I have over them when playing shorter. A $200 stack is a trivially easy stack to play at a loose 1/3 NL table (where my loose opponents play them *horribly* and likely worse than they play their deeperstacks).

But this is just my wishy washy opinion (I do go back and forth on this a bit, and once and while I'll see an incredibly poorly played deepstack hand that makes we think otherwise) and others can certainly disagree.

GcluelessstacksizenoobG


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What stakes are these hours at if you dont mind?
All 1/3 NL (majority of hours put in with a $300 maximum BI although it has recently changed to a $400 maximum BI).

I'm no different than anyone else and do consider / wonder about alternative methods of playing. There are certainly players in my pool who have a rather opposite style to mine and yet seem to do alright whom I'd love to know what their winrate / sample size is, cuz it's *possible* I'm missing out on something. But I think that's just a natural thing to do. I've convinced myself that my method is the best one to use in my conditions, but without knowing everyone else's results I could be wrong. So long as my results are decent (whatever that means?) I'm not too overly concerned about it.

GcluelessstylenoobG


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If you don't mind me asking whats your standard deviation for these games?
Started grinding more live and so far mine is at 54 bb/hr.
PokerJournal has my SD over my total 4271 hours at 1/3 NL as 53.6 bb/hr (with ~7 bb/hr winrate overall).

My Super Nit method has my SD at 45.7 bb/hr over 963 hours (with a ~6 bb/hr winrate), with my 2018 having a SD of 46.3 bb/hr over 526 hours (with a ~7 bb/hr winrate).

I don't really understand SD at all and so long as my winrate seems reasonable (which I believe it is in my conditions) then I couldn't really care less what it is.

GcluelessSDnoobG


Regarding bodybuilder's rant, just to keep it on on a ~winrate-ish bent so we're all not banned, I feel I'm a very pleasant person to play with and everything I do at the table is well within the accepted culture of our room, and that should be pretty much all that matters. I'll play my style (which I should be welcome to do) and everyone else can play their style (which they should be welcome to do). My style produces a decent winrate. Maybe other styles produce better ones (I'm unconvinced, but I could be wrong).

FWIW, I've never had a book or earphones or tablet or buried myself in an iPhone video at the table. In my opinion these are much bigger vibe/game/etc. killers than playing with a pleasant Super Nit.

GcluelesswinratesnoobG
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Old 01-04-2019, 01:17 PM   #22913
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Playing tight isn't ruining poker. If it were somehow detrimental, it would be 1000th on the list of actions players can take that make poker less fun. There is no winning strategy that involves only playing the nuts or only the top 5% of hands pre-flop.
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Old 01-04-2019, 01:30 PM   #22914
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"Giving action" is just a stupid term that I hate with a passion, because I believe that my goal as a professional is to make the best decisions I can, and I don't owe anyone any "loose action."

That being said, I believe that in most cases the highest EV lines involve being selective but agressive pre-flop, and using overbets post-flop in certain situations. No one generally thinks I'm a nit unless I go card-dead for 4 hours (which does happen).
Everyone on this forum is a turbo nit compared to the player pool.

If you play 1/3 or 1/2 in a large player pool, then being a nit wont really get noticed as there are just too many bad players that play atrocious post flop. You win by nitting it up. They win because they got to gamble for low stakes against other bad players and they didn't feel like they got outclassed by a table full of grinders.

I gurantee if you were playing in a smaller player pool that only ran around whales, you would have a much different approach about "giving action". Even if it was a 1-2 game.

Your 2-5 player pool can't be THAT large where the nittiness of the game doesn't have an affect on whether the fish decide to show up or not. Obviously, if a fish shows up and the game is bad he will donate, but he wont be as likely to come back frequently.

I probably hate losing money more than you do. But if more "TAGS" raised hands like QJo or A9o occasionally, ranges would be a little less snug and people could fight for pots more. Poker is really boring when everyone is has a snug PF hand selection. And this is coming from someone who wins big. Imagine how boring it would be if you were just an average joe who loses 1-2BB's an hour?

Obviously Im not going to raise those hands since nobody else is doing it. But it used to be a lot more common that fish would play these hands. But since they watch everyone else just muck, muck, muck, muck, limp, muck, limp. They adjust and start limping or even folding and now when I pick up a hand like AJ I have to fold to a raise every time, instead of playing a pot and "giving some action" with the chance that Im actually ahead of this guy's range rather than being completely dominated.

Last edited by bodybuilder32; 01-04-2019 at 01:43 PM.
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Old 01-04-2019, 01:50 PM   #22915
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I play primarily $5/10/20, with some $5/10, $10/20, and $10/20/40 mixed in. Player pools aren't very big.

Anyone opening A9o in MP is going to get murdered long-term. Maybe that wasn't the example you wanted to use.
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Old 01-04-2019, 02:01 PM   #22916
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I play primarily $5/10/20, with some $5/10, $10/20, and $10/20/40 mixed in. Player pools aren't very big.

Anyone opening A9o in MP is going to get murdered long-term. Maybe that wasn't the example you wanted to use.
Actually I think its perfect.

You dont have to do it EVERY TIME you get dealt A9. Im not accusing you of this, but some poker players play like robots. "Wow the pf hand selection sheets says this is a fold, so gotta fold".

You could do it one time early in the session to iso the biggest fish in the game. Then, if you win the hand with a c-bet or you have to fold your hand you can SHOW YOUR CARDS!!!! (Yes, you dont have to muck every time, you can give false info)

You do this to get the game going if it sucks.

Everyone in the game is now going to have A9o in your range, even though its isn't because you have tightened up.


You could choose other hands like 64s or K6s. Dont raise with it every time! maybe not even once a session. But show a c-bet bluff with a junk hand to tilt people and put some peer pressure on them to not be nits.
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Old 01-04-2019, 02:28 PM   #22917
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You are pretty wrong about this.

If a game sucks (defined as most players are playing fairly well), opening -EV hands isn't going to make it better, unless you mean better for other players, at your expense. I played in a $10/20/40 at Bellagio last year with 7 pros. You know how to make that game better? Leave and find a different game.

Most winning players at high stakes actually play fairly "robotically" pre-flop, for good reason. One of the biggest differences between high-stakes winners and low-stakes winners is that the former group tends to be much more disciplined pre-flop.

The problem with opening A9o isn't A9o in itself (although it's a pretty terrible hand). The real question is, if you are opening that hand, what are you doing with A8o? A5o? KTo? K6s? 96s? Before you know it, you are "randomly" opening with a 40% range in a spot where you should probably open a 15% range, and I shouldn't have to explain to you why a competent TAG on the button is going to eat you alive with that range. You say you do this maybe once a session, but more often than not you aren't going to see the showdown with it, or even win the hand to begin with because you have a bad hand that can't profitably play past the flop in most situations (or pre-flop if you get 3-bet).

I maintain my position that "giving action" as defined by playing -EV hands for sake of image isn't a smart thing to do if your goal is to win at poker.
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Old 01-04-2019, 02:38 PM   #22918
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I don't necessarily agree with bodybuilder's theories but there's a big difference between raising A9o once, showing it, then going back to normal (which I think he's advocating) and letting hands like K6s, 96s creep into your range as a matter of course. In fact if you extrapolate that from seeing one open raise with A9o then his plan is working.
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Old 01-04-2019, 02:44 PM   #22919
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If opening with A9o was truly a 0EV move I might just buy that hypothesis, but you've already cost yourself money with that open, so yeah, it's a no from me.

As a practical matter, I guarantee that you aren't doing this with only A9o if you think this is a fine play to make with A9o, which was my point with hands like K6s and 96s.
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Old 01-04-2019, 02:49 PM   #22920
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You are pretty wrong about this.

If a game sucks (defined as most players are playing fairly well), opening -EV hands isn't going to make it better, unless you mean better for other players, at your expense. I played in a $10/20/40 at Bellagio last year with 7 pros. You know how to make that game better? Leave and find a different game.

Most winning players at high stakes actually play fairly "robotically" pre-flop, for good reason. One of the biggest differences between high-stakes winners and low-stakes winners is that the former group tends to be much more disciplined pre-flop.

The problem with opening A9o isn't A9o in itself (although it's a pretty terrible hand). The real question is, if you are opening that hand, what are you doing with A8o? A5o? KTo? K6s? 96s? Before you know it, you are "randomly" opening with a 40% range in a spot where you should probably open a 15% range, and I shouldn't have to explain to you why a competent TAG on the button is going to eat you alive with that range. You say you do this maybe once a session, but more often than not you aren't going to see the showdown with it, or even win the hand to begin with because you have a bad hand that can't profitably play past the flop in most situations (or pre-flop if you get 3-bet).

I maintain my position that "giving action" as defined by playing -EV hands for sake of image isn't a smart thing to do if your goal is to win at poker.
IMO, if the game has a bunch of bad players limp-calling pre with like 69o or A6o (or calling crap like that from the blinds), then opening A9o, especially after some limpers is perfectly fine, and I think profitable - hell i’ll even open A7o and A6o sometimes if I think I’m likely to end up with a slight range advantage in position against several players, and if I think I can get away with it (at some point, better players will start noticing I’m opening way too wide and attack me more with 3bets). In higher stakes games without so many of those very bad players, or where there’s an aggressive 3bet dynamic, or when players are just better post flop, A9o should be hitting the muck much more often... I think there is an enormous gap in the profitability of a hand like A9o dependent on the player pool.

Last edited by pocketzeroes; 01-04-2019 at 02:55 PM.
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Old 01-04-2019, 02:54 PM   #22921
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The "robotic" players are scaring away the fish with their PF play. That's the problem.

I sat in a 5/10 game not too long ago. I came in behind the button. During the orbit, I saw only 1 PF limp, from an UTG player (probably a pocket pair). It was either a chop, a raise and take it. And one hand was a raise, BB 3-bet and PF raiser folds.

I immediately got up and left.

I was a 2/5 player taking a shot. A very good pro could have taken me to school in that game, but never got the opportunity since he wore his "pro badge" with his tight/aggressive play and serious demeanor.

If I would have just seen a few hands go raise/call/call, I would have stayed longer and actually tried to win in the game.

Most fish wont do what I do and snap leave. But they still wont like the experience and probably never play 5/10 again. Which really hurts the high stakes eco-system.

You discount "image" in poker, without taking into account what gets customers in the games.

You might not last as a pro in the next ten years if you continue to play as a PF nit, unless your drop down in stakes. Expect to see a lot of your customers playing in private games.

I am in this boat as well. The only difference is Im not like some posters on here who are preaching to fold suited broadways in EP and limping in with all of their hands when they are deepstacked. Then they either l/f or l/rr to some atrocious sizing that discourages fish from opening any non premiums.

Im not blindly raising A9o or 96 or any other speculative hand. But there are factors like the game getting short and a big fish is in the game. If you just keep folding and folding like everyone else at the table then this guy is getting no action and the pots are tiny. I want to wake him up from his little coma and get him engaged so he will start paying off my bets and not do the opposite like limp/folding because he sees other players doing it.

Other weak/tight fish can now become loose/passives once they see you were the PF raiser and had a garbageish type hand. The game gets a lot juicier and we can back to nitting it up and nobody will notice.

Last edited by bodybuilder32; 01-04-2019 at 03:02 PM.
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Old 01-04-2019, 02:58 PM   #22922
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Did I ever advocate folding suited broadways in any position or open-limping at all?

Please tell me more about games which you don't play in but I play in. Lol.
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Old 01-04-2019, 03:16 PM   #22923
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Did I ever advocate folding suited broadways in any position or open-limping at all?

Please tell me more about games which you don't play in but I play in. Lol.
I didn't say that YOU advocated it. I said other posters.

Im not lecturing you about to how to beat 5/10/20. I gave you perspective from a potential new customer to your game that the style of play reeked of a grinder fest.


If some guys were willing to be a littles less grindery and not folding decent hands when it gets folded to them, then the customer experience wouldn't be so god awful.


Guys like Gobbledygeek, no offense to him, preach this nittery, which I think is terrible because a bunch of potential customers are going to get put off by poker if they are playing at a nitty table full of guys limp/folding hands as strong as KQs and only calling with a set mining hand. He can get away with being such a nit ONLY BECAUSE the 1/3 player pool has so many fish that are clueless and the stakes are dirt cheap.

If your game is action packed and juicy, then of course you can get away with being a nit because everyone is having fun and nobody even notices you.

But I know that grinders are never going to see the big picture. Just dont blame me for there being no more fish left to play with at the higher levels. I didn't kill the game like you and your peers did. Maybe you can start a vlog or offer free coaching as well....
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Old 01-04-2019, 03:24 PM   #22924
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I don't agree with GG's strategy. You are kind of preaching to the choir on that issue.

I don't think you should ever fold "decent hands." A9o is not my idea of a decent hand. If your idea of "killing the game" is folding unprofitable hands, I don't know what to tell you.

The game will always get progressively worse as that's just the natural evolution of any game (towards greater skill and superior strategy). Many rec players have indeed gone to private games, but private games have their own issues (more risky in terms of security and fairness), so many recs will continue to play in public casinos for that reason.
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Old 01-04-2019, 03:25 PM   #22925
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For me most of bodybuilder's complaints boil down to "it's less enjoyable for people to play in a game where everyone is attempting to play well, so don't play well if you want the game to survive".

If you want to be the guy playing worse than everyone else in order to keep the game going, there's nothing stopping you. But getting upset at others who are simply playing their game is lol.

I mean, you should be allowed to play any game you want so long as you're not a dick and everything you do is well within the accepted culture of the room (when in Rome), no?

ETA: And I fold most suited broadway in EP. No one at the table knows I do this. And I'm allowed to. Get over yourself, imo.

Gwinrate=7bb/hr,justfornon-banningpurposesG
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