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Old 01-03-2019, 04:30 PM   #22876
AllJackedUp
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Originally Posted by Avaritia View Post
1/3 is very often a "better" game than 2/5.
Sometimes, the best 1/3 (or 1/2) players in the room are all TAGs, and when the 2/5 starts up, they all flock to it.

When that happens, the 2/5 will be full of the best TAG players in the room (and that game will suck), but the 1/2 or 1/3 games will suddenly be amazing as the other wannabe pros all leave the fish grounds open for you.

OTOH, sometimes the whales who just wanna gamble show up and make the 2/5 game amazing. You just gotta be selective.
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Old 01-03-2019, 10:34 PM   #22877
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GG, what do you buy in for?
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Old 01-03-2019, 10:40 PM   #22878
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

50 BB’s and a copy of War and Peace by his side.
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Old 01-03-2019, 11:34 PM   #22879
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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So I find it satisfying that my Super Nit strategy at almost 1000 hours has so far improved my winrate by 50% over the one I produced the previous 1300 hours over an ever increasing rake (although admittedly lags way behind the one I produced over my first 2000 hours, but conditions are different, imo).

GcluelessNLnoobG
What stakes are these hours at if you dont mind?

Just wondering, because I play $1/3 every so often and anecdotally think that a nitty'ish strategy (mixing in some l/a stuff) is not just a lower variance strategy at these stacks, but also more profitable then a l/a strategy that mixes in creative bluffs and a aggressive preflop strategy.

In practice, I suppose I am more of a straightforward nit just because the players are so bad that it doesn't feel +EV to deviate. However, the inner me wants to be more creative and aggressive, which I do from time to time, but I always end up reverting to a nit machine at these stakes.

I watch the 'good' aggro lags (by good I just mean understands the game, not just betting to bet at random), unfold creative (semi)-bluffs that theoretically make a ton of sense (say Hero nut advantage and V capped range, or taking advantage of an exploit on V weakness), but given V's general lack of understanding makes a silly call that he/she should never make. Then I think, wow what a creative/good play by Hero, however, what are you thinking Hero?! This is 1/3 NL and you just 3 barreled a guy you knew had top pair!

Idk, maybe these players get paid off way more when that have good value hands to offset, but don't feel its necessary to do stuff like that and get paid, thus my thinking nit strategy, generally, +EV.

Thoughts? Experience/results to back up one or the other?
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Old 01-03-2019, 11:41 PM   #22880
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Here's my latest 1/3 NL day-by-day results. In my opinion the differences are all just lol sample noise as I don't believe my games play any different at any time (although admittedly I'm ~never at the table after 9:30pm). I don't think it's any coincidence that the winrates starts converging to my overall winrate of ~$21 the more the hours increase.

Day / winrate / hours

Monday $16.37 420
Tuesday $23.76 411
Wednesday $13.42 277
Thursday $28.34 429
Friday $18.81 439
Saturday $20.94 878
Sunday $21.28 1417

GcluelessdayoftheweeknoobG
If you don't mind me asking whats your standard deviation for these games?
Started grinding more live and so far mine is at 54 bb/hr.

I am trying to run some estimates through pokerdope.com but my sample is only 600 hours and a mix of stakes so not really sure what to put down.
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Old 01-04-2019, 01:42 AM   #22881
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50 BB’s and a copy of War and Peace by his side.
****ing brilliant.
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Old 01-04-2019, 03:28 AM   #22882
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

I've legit started to bring books to read during my sessions. Poker is boring as hell, and without books I'd be spending too much time looking at random crap on my phone anyway. I'm not anti-social, but there just isn't that much to do when playing live poker, and for someone who used to 20-table cash online it's just not engaging enough to play long sessions without doing something else.
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Old 01-04-2019, 04:14 AM   #22883
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I've legit started to bring books to read during my sessions. Poker is boring as hell, and without books I'd be spending too much time looking at random crap on my phone anyway. I'm not anti-social, but there just isn't that much to do when playing live poker, and for someone who used to 20-table cash online it's just not engaging enough to play long sessions without doing something else.
YES! I never bring headphones to the table and still most of the time there just won't be a conversation and I'll be bored af. I could probably increase my winrate by a full bb/hr if not 2 bb/hr by paying attention to every hand and picking up reads but most of the time I'm on facebook or reading a pdf.
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Old 01-04-2019, 06:20 AM   #22884
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Originally Posted by SABR42 View Post
I've legit started to bring books to read during my sessions. Poker is boring as hell, and without books I'd be spending too much time looking at random crap on my phone anyway. I'm not anti-social, but there just isn't that much to do when playing live poker, and for someone who used to 20-table cash online it's just not engaging enough to play long sessions without doing something else.


I understand why that might help you endure 1500 + hours a year at the tables but that is really bad for the game and the ecosystem
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Old 01-04-2019, 06:21 AM   #22885
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I understand why that might help you endure 1500 + hours a year at the tables but that is really bad for the game and the ecosystem


+1

I’d think at High steaks there would be a lot of social intrigue at play
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Old 01-04-2019, 07:28 AM   #22886
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I don't find that it changes much.

The recs at higher stakes know they are fish, as they are usually fairly wealthy and not stupid. They aren't going to play you differently based on you having a book.

I'm not reading 100% of the time (it's probably like 30-40%) and certainly don't do it as a way to ignore other people, but it comes in handy at certain times.
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Old 01-04-2019, 07:40 AM   #22887
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GG, thanks for the response, it's pretty close to what I was expecting. Good to hear you still manage to enjoy playing and also that it's proving profitable.
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Old 01-04-2019, 08:22 AM   #22888
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Originally Posted by SABR42 View Post
I don't find that it changes much.

The recs at higher stakes know they are fish, as they are usually fairly wealthy and not stupid. They aren't going to play you differently based on you having a book.

I'm not reading 100% of the time (it's probably like 30-40%) and certainly don't do it as a way to ignore other people, but it comes in handy at certain times.


book is certainly a few notches down from having earphones in/on and being enthralled by a movie/show on a tablet anyways, pretty easy to switch from reading to playing
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Old 01-04-2019, 08:34 AM   #22889
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Originally Posted by SABR42 View Post
I don't find that it changes much.

The recs at higher stakes know they are fish, as they are usually fairly wealthy and not stupid. They aren't going to play you differently based on you having a book.

I'm not reading 100% of the time (it's probably like 30-40%) and certainly don't do it as a way to ignore other people, but it comes in handy at certain times.


imo it’s more that it reduces the light hearted and gambly vibe that you want at the table. I think the same about phones tbh but definitely iPads and books
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Old 01-04-2019, 08:43 AM   #22890
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imo it’s more that it reduces the light hearted and gambly vibe that you want at the table. I think the same about phones tbh but definitely iPads and books


yeah if the game is playing like that vibe, with a bunch of straddles, lots of action, alcohol, and talking, it would be foolish to have a book out. but i think Sabr deserves the benefit of doubt that he would deem it necessary to read in that sort of game.
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Old 01-04-2019, 09:40 AM   #22891
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re: to book or not too book

like anything else in life, i'm sure it involves a fair amount of moderation and not being a ****ing moron about it. i expect SABR knows when reading a book is not appropriate and when it's ok to do so.

as for myself, i tried it a bunch of years back, i have no clue how you do it SABR. i just could never concentrate on the book enough. maybe something a little lighter than GOT:AFFK would have been easier
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Old 01-04-2019, 10:59 AM   #22892
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Down swings

Starting to get frustrated about this downswing. Yes, Im occasionally playing bad, but mostly I'm just card dead. I'm a rec player and I track my hours/results.

Looks like I'm on a 40+ hour span of catching nothing. Few starting hands, missing every flop and the occasional bad beat have cost me over the last month. 40 hours is about 10% of my annual hours . Is this a normal downswing or do I just suck at poker ?
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Old 01-04-2019, 11:00 AM   #22893
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Originally Posted by gobbledygeek View Post
I think I find solace / satisfaction in taking a very long term see-if-my-method-works approach to the game and find a lot of the enjoyment is simply seeing my lifetime graph continually move upwards (which is something very few players in my room can say). So I find it satisfying that my Super Nit strategy at almost 1000 hours has so far improved my winrate by 50% over the one I produced the previous 1300 hours over an ever increasing rake (although admittedly lags way behind the one I produced over my first 2000 hours, but conditions are different, imo).

So overall I find the game slightly more enjoyable since I know it's producing slightly better results than before, but the time at the table I find pretty much the same enjoyment-wise (a night out, some laughs, playing cards, this is hardly a bad time).

GcluelessNLnoobG
I congratulate you since your 1/3 winrate is probably in the top 95% of players.

With that said, I think your approach to the game is full on PARASITE and bad for the game.

Because your starting hand selection is so tight and you are limping in with every hand you decide to play, even your premiums, you are literally NEVER GIVING ACTION to any of the fun players.


The only way someone even as a remote chance of getting a penny out of you is if you call a raise preflop to setmine. But that's only getting like $15 bucks max, and they wont get another cent unless you flop a set and they cooler you or suck out.


They cant crack you with a garbage hand because you just limp in. If someone raises, then you will make a gigantic limp/reraise that gives them horrendous odds to continue. I understand they just call anyway with total trash because they are degens, but it just makes you that much worse for the game.


This, combined with seat changing and table changing when YOU are deep in a small player pool, Im surprised that everyone in your room doesn't hate you. You are honestly very lucky that you play with guys that are happily straight up donating money to you because they compulsively cant stop themselves from folding a hand that they like. If anyone in your room even remotely gave a sh*t about money they would snap fold the second you touched your chips.


I used to play in a strip mall card club full of degens and the degens there would give me a lot of sh*t for being a nit. Maybe because you live in Canada where everyone is nice, or because you only play 1 day a week and people give you a pass because you are old.


Whatever it is, I know for a fact that if more people starting taking on your strategy, the games would dry up FAST. The degens expect to lose, but they dont want to play with a bunch of limp folders and always be put in spots post flop where they are always a massive dog to anyone who is putting money in the pot past the flop.

Your strategy is easy, basic, and could be followed by a senile old lady. Hell, other than serious TAG players, I would say that old ladies probably come in second in terms of win rate at 1/3.


I know this sounds harsh. But Im not the only one that cringes everytime you post advice. You could easily start raising hands that you limp/fold with in late postion like AT-AQo or suited broadways and not even take a hit to your winrate, just for the APPEARANCE of giving SOME action, but you choose not to just to avoid any variance.


I wouldn't care what a random 1/3 player does, but this is the entry level for a lot of fish. I gurantee a lot of potential whales got turned off from poker because they sat in horrific games where everyone was limp/folding pre and only giving action with their nutmining hands. He's calling raises pre only to see that the person's raise he called was QQ or better. Meanwhile he's thinking "how the f*ck are people so patient. Do they just sit here all day and wait for the top 5% of hands?"


If you want to be a nit with a very mediocre win rate in terms of dollar/per hour, that will continue to decerease due to inflation, then nobody can stop you. But do you have to post the same easy-to-digest cookie cutter strategy week in and week out that will only encourage more miminum wage bum hunters that will kill poker?


Sorry for the rant.

Last edited by bodybuilder32; 01-04-2019 at 11:20 AM.
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Old 01-04-2019, 11:08 AM   #22894
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Down swings

Starting to get frustrated about this downswing. Yes, Im occasionally playing bad, but mostly I'm just card dead. I'm a rec player and I track my hours/results.

Looks like I'm on a 40+ hour span of catching nothing. Few starting hands, missing every flop and the occasional bad beat have cost me over the last month. 40 hours is about 10% of my annual hours . Is this a normal downswing or do I just suck at poker ?
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Old 01-04-2019, 11:11 AM   #22895
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Re: Down swings

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Originally Posted by jelloman View Post
Starting to get frustrated about this downswing. Yes, Im occasionally playing bad, but mostly I'm just card dead. I'm a rec player and I track my hours/results.

Looks like I'm on a 40+ hour span of catching nothing. Few starting hands, missing every flop and the occasional bad beat have cost me over the last month. 40 hours is about 10% of my annual hours . Is this a normal downswing or do I just suck at poker ?
This is literally nothing. This can go on much much longer.
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Old 01-04-2019, 11:13 AM   #22896
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Re: Down swings

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Originally Posted by jelloman View Post
Starting to get frustrated about this downswing. Yes, Im occasionally playing bad, but mostly I'm just card dead. I'm a rec player and I track my hours/results.

Looks like I'm on a 40+ hour span of catching nothing. Few starting hands, missing every flop and the occasional bad beat have cost me over the last month. 40 hours is about 10% of my annual hours . Is this a normal downswing or do I just suck at poker ?
40 hours is nothing. A crusher can easily go on 100 hour breakeven stretches. If the player pool is high variance and action, then that breakeven stretch can easily hit 300 hours. And that's assuming you play tight and straightforward. If you play LAG against other loose fish, you might go on 500 hour+ breakeven stretches.
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Old 01-04-2019, 11:13 AM   #22897
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Re: Down swings

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Originally Posted by jelloman View Post
Starting to get frustrated about this downswing. Yes, Im occasionally playing bad, but mostly I'm just card dead. I'm a rec player and I track my hours/results.

Looks like I'm on a 40+ hour span of catching nothing. Few starting hands, missing every flop and the occasional bad beat have cost me over the last month. 40 hours is about 10% of my annual hours . Is this a normal downswing or do I just suck at poker ?
Sounds totally standard. Welcome to the reality and huge variance of livepoker.

30-40 hours of running carddead and missing every flop is 100 percent standard, happens all the time. Also dont be surprised if you find yourself going on a 200-300 hour breakeven stretch. Happens to everybody sooner or later, no matter how good you are.
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Old 01-04-2019, 11:14 AM   #22898
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Also nice rant Bodybuilder,+1.
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Old 01-04-2019, 11:31 AM   #22899
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Re: Down swings

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Originally Posted by jelloman View Post
Starting to get frustrated about this downswing. Yes, Im occasionally playing bad, but mostly I'm just card dead. I'm a rec player and I track my hours/results.

Looks like I'm on a 40+ hour span of catching nothing. Few starting hands, missing every flop and the occasional bad beat have cost me over the last month. 40 hours is about 10% of my annual hours . Is this a normal downswing or do I just suck at poker ?
ya as the guys before me have said this is nothing and totally standard. I've won @ 10bb/hr over 2500 hours combined of 1/2 - 5/10 and am currently breaking-even over my past 540 hours.

it's hard to play your A-game all the time and never punt, can't avoid run-bad and coolers etc so it happens even to good players.

just gotta accept it and play the best you can each session. it can definitely be frustrating as a serious rec player where you aren't able to get in as many hours per year which means the break-even stretches can last very long in real time not just poker hours.
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Old 01-04-2019, 11:46 AM   #22900
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Derail but huge +1 to feelwrath wrt books
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