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Old 10-08-2018, 08:54 AM   #22476
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Re: Does anyone know of anyone averaging $70/hr playing strictly 1/2?

I don't think you can have a super high win rate and play low variance at the same time. Math says it's not possible. What happens when the whole table is playing low variance? Then it would probably be impossible to win 35bb per hour. You would have to table select at 1/2 to find the loosest table and that in itself would effect your hourly as you'd have to spend time looking for that table

haven't played 1/2 in 8 years but I think the highest hourly i ever heard of is 27
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Old 10-08-2018, 09:11 AM   #22477
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Re: Does anyone know of anyone averaging $70/hr playing strictly 1/2?

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Originally Posted by daygrindmike View Post
I'm curious how much money one could make at these levels if one were to exploit these stakes to the max. I'm averaging $37/hr since journaling my sessions around 100 hours ago. I know this is a tiny sample size but one day I plan on playing poker full-time indefinitely. I believe there's a good chance I already have what it takes, but I also realize I'm still swimming in the proverbial kiddie pool. Crushing 1/2 over such a tiny sample size isn't anything to boast about.

I'm top 100 in the state as a double A pool player after just 3 years of training and practice. I've won $1000s gambling in bars and poolhalls. I'm an excellent bowler (278 high score), chess player, top tri-athlete in high school, ace pitcher, starting runningback, best 3pt shooter (23 3s in a row once). Anyway all of that to say I'm naturally great at things. And the poker pro that made the list on this forum for other aspiring pros claims that part of someone's potential upside has to do with their natural ability to be good at stuff.

I haven't had any real heaters outside of cashing 5 out of 6 25p-35p live tournaments back in May. But I haven't factored any of those winnings into the $37/hr.

I'm 90% confident that through proper bankroll management I can average $30/hr, as I get the feeling I'm already the best player at whatever table I sit down at, but I'm also very introspective. Thoughts?
I can assure you that after 100 hours you have no idea what a heater is or isnt. People think a heater means they keep winning big pots, keep hitting set over sets, keep hitting a flush when they other guys has a straight....ect.

Heaters can be much more subtle. You could hit TP 8 times out of 10 after raising AK/AQ and not even realize youre on a heater because you may have only won small to medium pots. But you hit TP more than double the amount of times you should have. That's heaterish.

You might get set over setted....but there was 4 to a flush on the board so you didnt lose much when normally you will get stacked.

Until you have 1000s of hours you wont be able to recognize a heater while you're in one.
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Old 10-08-2018, 09:19 AM   #22478
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Re: Does anyone know of anyone averaging $70/hr playing strictly 1/2?

I wonder if rookie baseball players who go seven for fifteen or whatever in their first week ever ask the vets if they know anybody who hit .700. I mean they're hitting damn near .500, are humble but have been great at everything they've ever done and probably don't feel like they're on a heater. They even laid off a nasty slider once obv results are sustainable imo.
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Old 10-08-2018, 09:24 AM   #22479
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Re: Does anyone know of anyone averaging $70/hr playing strictly 1/2?

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a live poker player's "hourly" is fictitious. it's different at every table, and is in flux because people change the way they play.

you can make a better prediction regarding hourly when playing online. there were $1/2 players making $140/hr 10-years ago with rakeback included. 16+ tabling though.

Are you saying online players have a better indication of their true win rate or that playing online will help you establish an idea of your true win rate at a live game?

I believe the former and not the latter. I am a terrible online player yet I have had 9 straight winning years live.
There is just a vast difference in the quality of games online vs. live.

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I guess it's cool that we're now allowing newbies to troll the forum OOT style.


I welcome OP to the forum and have no issues with him thinking he has the game figured out after playing 100 hours while some of us who have been playing for 10,000 hours still don’t. OP decided to look back at two of my hand histories on here and tell me how terrible I am. Well, that’s why I post those hands to hear opinions of what I could have done better. Hopefully he will utilize the forum for what it is - an aid to improve and evaluate your own play.
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Old 10-08-2018, 09:24 AM   #22480
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Re: Does anyone know of anyone averaging $70/hr playing strictly 1/2?

Dude you're on a heater.

If it was that easy every nit on this forum would be making 15BB per hour playing a nitty two plus two low variance starting hand range. Many agree that 10BB is possible, but there is only one guy on here that thinks $40 an hour is possible. That should tell you something. But of course, you think you are more talented and special than everybody else, and that we all must be calling 3bets from nits, and that's why we don't have a $37 an hour win rate at 1/2.


You're going to have stretches where you get sucked on in every single big pot you play. You will also miss every single flop that you raise pre and you will go 0 for 30 set mining. This type of swing may not even happen in your first 1000 hrs, but when it does your true win rate is going to go DOWN. Oh, and you're going to go on tilt too and spew 50 dollars here and a hundred dollars there. Sorry, but anyone who thinks they won't is FOS and plays OMC style of play for 5 hrs a week.


For your win rate to be +10BB an hour you are going to have to play VERY LAG. That means high variance and getting all of your decisions right, time after time after time, without hardly any spewing. All this while paying high rake and dealing with super slow tables.
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Old 10-08-2018, 09:29 AM   #22481
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Re: Does anyone know of anyone averaging $70/hr playing strictly 1/2?

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MikeStarr 2.0 right here
If you check the winrates thread, there was a time when you thought $60 an hour was possible at 1/2. Lol.



Then.....the doomswitch kicked in.
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Old 10-08-2018, 09:37 AM   #22482
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Re: Does anyone know of anyone averaging $70/hr playing strictly 1/2?

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If you check the winrates thread, there was a time when you thought $60 an hour was possible at 1/2. Lol.



Then.....the doomswitch kicked in.
Is this for me or Johnny? Pretty sure it wasnt me. Quote please?
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Old 10-08-2018, 09:38 AM   #22483
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Re: Does anyone know of anyone averaging $70/hr playing strictly 1/2?

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I can assure you that after 100 hours you have no idea what a heater is or isnt. People think a heater means they keep winning big pots, keep hitting set over sets, keep hitting a flush when they other guys has a straight....ect.

Heaters can be much more subtle. You could hit TP 8 times out of 10 after raising AK/AQ and not even realize youre on a heater because you may have only won small to medium pots. But you hit TP more than double the amount of times you should have. That's heaterish.

You might get set over setted....but there was 4 to a flush on the board so you didnt lose much when normally you will get stacked.

Until you have 1000s of hours you wont be able to recognize a heater while you're in one.
Well said, +1 Mike.
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Old 10-08-2018, 09:43 AM   #22484
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Re: Does anyone know of anyone averaging $70/hr playing strictly 1/2?

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Is this for me or Johnny? Pretty sure it wasnt me. Quote please?
For Johnny
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Old 10-08-2018, 10:49 AM   #22485
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Dang-it, I merged this before I realized what a troll-fest it is. Well, now that it's in the right spot, no trolling.

daygrindmike, read this thread, and then calm down. No one is making $70/hr at 1/2.

Everyone else, just tell him to read the thread.
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Old 10-08-2018, 11:29 AM   #22486
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Re: Does anyone know of anyone averaging $70/hr playing strictly 1/2?

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Originally Posted by bodybuilder32 View Post
If you check the winrates thread, there was a time when you thought $60 an hour was possible at 1/2. Lol.

Then.....the doomswitch kicked in.
I believe I said my "goal" for the year was to average $50/hr for 1/2 for 2016 or whatever which would have been minimal hours given I was playing nearly entirely 2/5 and some 5/10, not that I thought it could be beaten for $60/hr over a 2000 hour full-time grinder sample.

My lifetime at 1/2 was $37/hr after ~650 hours before I stopped playing 1/2.

Having been through a 1000 hour +EV period (only recognizable in hindsight) followed by a few thousand hour -EV period I still stand by my statements that variance (more so and especially in aggressive and deep stacked games) can kick you around one way or the other for thousands of hours at a time.
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Old 10-08-2018, 11:39 AM   #22487
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Re: Does anyone know of anyone averaging $70/hr playing strictly 1/2?

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My lifetime at 1/2 was $37/hr after ~650 hours before I stopped playing 1/2.
Congrats, well played!
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Old 10-08-2018, 11:40 AM   #22488
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Re: Does anyone know of anyone averaging $70/hr playing strictly 1/2?

Quote:
Originally Posted by daygrindmike View Post
I'm curious how much money one could make at these levels if one were to exploit these stakes to the max. I'm averaging $37/hr since journaling my sessions around 100 hours ago. I know this is a tiny sample size but one day I plan on playing poker full-time indefinitely. I believe there's a good chance I already have what it takes, but I also realize I'm still swimming in the proverbial kiddie pool. Crushing 1/2 over such a tiny sample size isn't anything to boast about.

I'm top 100 in the state as a double A pool player after just 3 years of training and practice. I've won $1000s gambling in bars and poolhalls. I'm an excellent bowler (278 high score), chess player, top tri-athlete in high school, ace pitcher, starting runningback, best 3pt shooter (23 3s in a row once). Anyway all of that to say I'm naturally great at things. And the poker pro that made the list on this forum for other aspiring pros claims that part of someone's potential upside has to do with their natural ability to be good at stuff.

I haven't had any real heaters outside of cashing 5 out of 6 25p-35p live tournaments back in May. But I haven't factored any of those winnings into the $37/hr.

I'm 90% confident that through proper bankroll management I can average $30/hr, as I get the feeling I'm already the best player at whatever table I sit down at, but I'm also very introspective. Thoughts?
The fact you felt the need to list everything you're awesome at, along with newly minted account made me think immediately this is just somebody trolling under an alt account.

Then I read your follow ups and you seem serious. I'll proceed under that assumption.

Max possible winrate is probably much higher than people think, under the right conditions such as doing most or all of the following:

Bumhunting whales
Only playing during peak hours
Quitting if there are no super squishy tables
Moving to get favorable relative position constantly
Not tipping, ever
Not tilting, ever
Having an expert understanding of body language and verbal cues
Angle shooting constantly
Having a world class technical game
Having great charisma and ability to encourage action
Table hop without using the transfer list
Illegally add chips to match the big stack
Look at people's hole cards when they aren't properly protecting them
Play a few hours at a time so your concentration is maxed
Take ADHD meds to max your concentration

If all these things are true my guess is you could triple or quadruple typical winrates.

But...in order to do all these things you would have very low volume and end up disliked by regs, dealers, and basically everyone at the casino. Might get a lot of 24 hour bans also. And you'd be a scumbag. But you'd have a huge winrate.

But your win RATE is not really the important thing. If you play in the softest game of the month for 3 hours you won't make much money even if you're making 70 dollars an hour.

What's important is maximizing your earnings and that means playing in a lot of suboptimal conditions. Doing that 10 to 15 max BB an hour maybe 20 to 25 if you never tip, angle shoot and engage in other scummy behaviors.

It's much better to play 200 hours a month at 20 dollars an hour than to play 80 hours a month at 30 dollars an hour.

Total earnings are more important than winrate but it's always winrate everyone wants to compare.
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Old 10-08-2018, 11:44 AM   #22489
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Sorry Garick, I started writing that before you posted and I'm using the Tapatalk app and can't see the thread. Please don't ban me

Daygrindmike, read the thread. Search for winrate or "max winrate" etc. I'm sure you'll find zillions of posts.
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Old 10-08-2018, 11:46 AM   #22490
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Meh, you didn't troll, imo. That's all I meant. Not that "read the thread" is the only allowable response.
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Old 10-08-2018, 12:14 PM   #22491
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*** Official Winrates, bankrolls, and finances ***

I’m on a massive 50-hour heater and I am only at $82/hr. $80/hr in an uncapped game is unrealistic.

iIRC I ran hot in March 2014, the last month I worked and won like $95/hr over 113 hours but some of that included $1/$3.

For the record I know a few people in Vegas who are in the $30-$35/hr range.
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Old 10-08-2018, 12:17 PM   #22492
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Re: Does anyone know of anyone averaging $70/hr playing strictly 1/2?

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Originally Posted by daygrindmike View Post
I'm kinda curious to know what all of you guys average per hour playing? I've actually had plenty of spots where people have taken big pots from me after hitting their 20.5% rivers. I haven't been on any crazy type heaters except for that one day, but I have been through 3-4 downswings, one that was around 6 buyins plus $150 in tournaments.
You cant go through 4 down swings in 100 hours...
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Old 10-09-2018, 04:37 PM   #22493
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Hi all,

1/3 (occasional 2/5) player considering mixing in some PLO. Just need a change of pace once in a while. After grinding $1/$3 for almost a year I need new scenery.

Anyone winning at NL make the move to PLO? Results? Pitfalls?

My casino offers $1/$2 five-card (plays like a $5/$10). My BR is $5,500. I played a couple times and the players are hella bad calling stations who play ATC. If I play super tight can this be profitable?

Watching JNandez for basics and reading stickies in PLO forum. Just bought Hwang's book.

Or is this just a bad idea? The pots get massive pretty quickly and the casino only allows players to run it once. Last night all three of my flopped sets got outdrawn....

Thanks,
DT

Last edited by DumbosTrunk; 10-09-2018 at 05:00 PM.
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Old 10-09-2018, 04:52 PM   #22494
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

DumbosTrunk, I have been playing a 5/5 round-by-round NLH/PLO game and in my last two sessions I've dropped 4k and 3k playing pretty darn tight but getting sucked out on in literally 9/10 big pots played. PLO bankroll requirements are nuts.
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Old 10-09-2018, 05:18 PM   #22495
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Originally Posted by KatoKrazy View Post
DumbosTrunk, I have been playing a 5/5 round-by-round NLH/PLO game and in my last two sessions I've dropped 4k and 3k playing pretty darn tight but getting sucked out on in literally 9/10 big pots played. PLO bankroll requirements are nuts.
Yeah my sucksouts were kinda brutal, but only lost $450 as I was short-stacking. Having played NL, where flopped sets are only sometimes outdrawn, getting all three beat was a wake up call. PLO =/= NLHE.

Can you run it more than once in your PLO game? Our "lowest stake" PLO game is $1/$2 (bring in $5, so really it's a $5/$5 game), it's not time raked, so we can only run it once!
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Old 10-09-2018, 06:30 PM   #22496
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Originally Posted by DumbosTrunk View Post
Hi all,

1/3 (occasional 2/5) player considering mixing in some PLO. Just need a change of pace once in a while. After grinding $1/$3 for almost a year I need new scenery.

Anyone winning at NL make the move to PLO? Results? Pitfalls?

My casino offers $1/$2 five-card (plays like a $5/$10). My BR is $5,500. I played a couple times and the players are hella bad calling stations who play ATC. If I play super tight can this be profitable?

Watching JNandez for basics and reading stickies in PLO forum. Just bought Hwang's book.

Or is this just a bad idea?

Thanks,
DT
I've been playing a lot of PLO in the last year or so as all the local home games have gone to that. $1/2 with a $2 bring in, but often straddled, potted, and repotted preflop. Not uncommon to see a lot of multi-way all-ins early in the night, or $4k stacks later in the night.

PLO can be a completely insane game, because it's easy for a lot of people to think that they have monster hands and pile all of their money in. Sometimes they're right, or they still have 30% equity, and then some of them will be drawing dead. As a result you can have completely ridiculous swings, +- $2k in a night isn't rare. Your BR requirement is easily twice the next higher stake NHLE level, ie double the $2/5 NLHE BR for $1/2 PLO. I'm not sure how that would change for big-O though.

That being said, you *can* profit in games like this if you're patient and employ a nit-pot strategy by buying in somewhat short and simply re-potting over everyone preflop with a monster. Or by being very disciplined in EP and folding all those speculative hands to the $10 opens. Or by being willing to pile it in and ride the variance train with $800+ pot bets once you figure out ranges in PLO. (Don't try this right away.)

But to bring this back to BR/WR territory it took me about 600 hours or so to kind of "figure out" PLO (played intermittently for a while) at -$6/hr, and then over the last 525 hours run at +$20/hr.

Not sure I really believe either of those samples because of how few hands we see in PLO in an hour, but it is what it is.
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Old 10-09-2018, 06:44 PM   #22497
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Originally Posted by Angrist View Post
I've been playing a lot of PLO in the last year or so as all the local home games have gone to that. $1/2 with a $2 bring in, but often straddled, potted, and repotted preflop. Not uncommon to see a lot of multi-way all-ins early in the night, or $4k stacks later in the night.

PLO can be a completely insane game, because it's easy for a lot of people to think that they have monster hands and pile all of their money in. Sometimes they're right, or they still have 30% equity, and then some of them will be drawing dead. As a result you can have completely ridiculous swings, +- $2k in a night isn't rare. Your BR requirement is easily twice the next higher stake NHLE level, ie double the $2/5 NLHE BR for $1/2 PLO. I'm not sure how that would change for big-O though.

That being said, you *can* profit in games like this if you're patient and employ a nit-pot strategy by buying in somewhat short and simply re-potting over everyone preflop with a monster. Or by being very disciplined in EP and folding all those speculative hands to the $10 opens. Or by being willing to pile it in and ride the variance train with $800+ pot bets once you figure out ranges in PLO. (Don't try this right away.)

But to bring this back to BR/WR territory it took me about 600 hours or so to kind of "figure out" PLO (played intermittently for a while) at -$6/hr, and then over the last 525 hours run at +$20/hr.

Not sure I really believe either of those samples because of how few hands we see in PLO in an hour, but it is what it is.
I've been buying in for just over the $200 min ($300) and l/rr my monsters for the most part, potting flop. Given that it sounds like I need at least $50k to play this game professionally, I'll have to wait a while before incorporating it meaningfully into my regular routine and stick with NL for now. Thanks....
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Old 10-09-2018, 07:03 PM   #22498
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You'd probably be better off with the min buy of $200.
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Old 10-10-2018, 10:26 AM   #22499
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DumbosTrunk View Post
I've been buying in for just over the $200 min ($300) and l/rr my monsters for the most part, potting flop. Given that it sounds like I need at least $50k to play this game professionally, I'll have to wait a while before incorporating it meaningfully into my regular routine and stick with NL for now. Thanks....
Keep in mind - high only 5 CARDS PLO has a bigger variances than 4 cards. I don't have experiences to say what would be a proper bankroll, but play it professionally, I would suggest at least 100 buyins.
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Old 10-10-2018, 02:05 PM   #22500
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I spend about half my time at NL half at PLO. The bankroll requirements for PLO are going to be far higher, I think Angrist is right. I went on 10k swings a handful of times at 2/5 PLO, some runbad some playbad, but it is pretty wild. Plus there's lots of straddling. I think 50 buy ins is appropriate, and maybe even aggressive BRM.

The thing about live PLO is every pot has like 5 players in it, so you make the most money with nut draws, nuts with redraws, top set, etc. Cbetting into the field is suicidal, you will get check raised a lot. If by some miracle you get it HU or three to a flop you can put opponents in some pretty tough spots but 4+ to a flop forget about it.
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