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Old 08-01-2018, 12:56 PM   #22051
sevencard2003
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Originally Posted by MikeStarr View Post
Stealing tons of dead limp money preflop is my main source of nit revenue.
how can u steal from nits? when they limp they got aa or ak often and will call or reraise with a hand heavily dominating yours instead of folding. the guys who call with weaker hands, and then fold on the flop, i sure wouldnt call them nits. a nit is a guy who plays 1% or less of his hands.
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Old 08-01-2018, 01:13 PM   #22052
gobbledygeek
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a nit is a guy who plays 1% or less of his hands.
Gotta assume you accidentally missed a zero?

Gotherwise,turnsoutI'mnotanitafterall!G
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Old 08-01-2018, 02:20 PM   #22053
Badreg2017
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Not sugarhouse.

I’m playing poker full time, I have one client for my side business which only takes up about 7 hours a week.
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Old 08-01-2018, 02:34 PM   #22054
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Originally Posted by gobbledygeek View Post
Gotta assume you accidentally missed a zero?

Gotherwise,turnsoutI'mnotanitafterall!G
LOL.

For reals though, a noon game full of nits who get suspicious of your aggressive playstyle but are too scared to do something about it might be better than an evening game with two fish and a few hoodie wearing TAGs. You literally just iso raise to the max and double barrel or overbet bluff a ton when these nits cap their ranges. And when they think they got you, you just fold cause they never bluff. Or you flop a set and stack them.

Just last night I was trying to iso raise a fish with T9s in the CO. Unfortunately a nit flatted on the BTN and the fish folded. Flop was AQxss got checked through. Turn J I bet 3/4 pot nit calls. River 3 I overbet he thinks for a little while then angrily throws his hand into the muck. Almost laughed out loud.

I dunno if it was Mikestarr or someone else who said 6bb/hr is the max you can win in these nitty games. If there's a couple better nits or TAGs in the mix as well, probably true. But if conditions are perfect I'm sure you can crush for more than 10. Those typical evening games with two fish and a few TAGs...they aren't necessarily solid 10 bb-able tables. I think if we win at 10bb/hr, a lot of that will be because the very good tables with whales and not so many TAGs are pulling the average up.
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Old 08-01-2018, 05:18 PM   #22055
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LOL.

For reals though, a noon game full of nits who get suspicious of your aggressive playstyle but are too scared to do something about it might be better than an evening game with two fish and a few hoodie wearing TAGs. You literally just iso raise to the max and double barrel or overbet bluff a ton when these nits cap their ranges. And when they think they got you, you just fold cause they never bluff. Or you flop a set and stack them.

Just last night I was trying to iso raise a fish with T9s in the CO. Unfortunately a nit flatted on the BTN and the fish folded. Flop was AQxss got checked through. Turn J I bet 3/4 pot nit calls. River 3 I overbet he thinks for a little while then angrily throws his hand into the muck. Almost laughed out loud.

I dunno if it was Mikestarr or someone else who said 6bb/hr is the max you can win in these nitty games. If there's a couple better nits or TAGs in the mix as well, probably true. But if conditions are perfect I'm sure you can crush for more than 10. Those typical evening games with two fish and a few TAGs...they aren't necessarily solid 10 bb-able tables. I think if we win at 10bb/hr, a lot of that will be because the very good tables with whales and not so many TAGs are pulling the average up.
Wasn't me. If you play ABC TAG style play and there are lots of nits, 5-6BB/hr may be the max, but learning to LAG it up and abuse the nits will really improve the win rate even in games with small avg pot sizes.
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Old 08-01-2018, 09:21 PM   #22056
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i hit 2k hours of live cash in the past week but i’ll wait until 2500 to poast results up in honor of Avarita
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Old 08-02-2018, 07:25 AM   #22057
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Originally Posted by Badreg2017 View Post
Results for July, my first month in a new poker room:

139 hours played, up $6,290 playing 1/3.

-Includes two $300 high hand, but it’s a tiny room and they take 2 promo dollars with no bad beat.

-It’s $500 max with the option to straddle from anywhere so it often plays pretty big.

-I was out of state for 11 days so the volume was a little lacking. The run good and not having to drive 1.5 hours to get to the poker room certainly helped.
Making me look bad man. Out of state 11 days and still more hours than me. I've been sick past week but that's about it.

Going to try for 150 hours this month...if it doesnt affect me too much to play longer. I usually consider 120 hours enough. But I like my sleep. And I won't play even slightly feverish. Lost too much money trying to play sick.
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Old 08-02-2018, 08:53 AM   #22058
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My brag

July (obv sustainable - mostly 1/3, a few 2/5 sessions):
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Old 08-02-2018, 11:43 AM   #22059
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But that one loss tho?

Gthere'salwaysnextmonthG
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Old 08-02-2018, 12:01 PM   #22060
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What's the thinking on PLO results here since there isn't really a LLSPLO forum? The Small Stakes has a lot of online micro stuff in it.

I've got about 350 hours of PLO this year, and only 50 of NLHE

+$1760 in July over 54.7 hours for a nice little $32/hr take.

+$400 in one 6.6 hr session in Aug

In general it seems like I've got that game finally figured out enough to turn a semi consistent profit (as consistent as PLO can be I suppose).
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Old 08-02-2018, 12:05 PM   #22061
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But that one loss tho?

Gthere'salwaysnextmonthG


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Old 08-03-2018, 07:00 AM   #22062
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How do you guys count hours played in calculating winrate? I figure there are three main ways to do it.

A) Count from when driving to casino to coming back

B) Count time once seated until leaving

C) Count actual time playing hands, e.g. if your casino uses Bravo they log you out briefly when you get up to use the restroom or the table breaks etc.

I spend about 9 to 10 hours driving to the casino waiting playing cashing out and getting back home after a typical session, which nets me 7 to 8 hours on Bravo. I've been tracking method C since I figure it is most accurate for winrate and it is what my casino uses for hourly promos.

But compared to someone using A I might have like 20% fewer hours. I'm going to try to hit 150 hours this month but that might be hard if it's more like 190 hours playing waiting or driving to/from the casino. I chose 150 because there is a 400 dollar promo every 75 hours. Really wish they did that ever 50 or 60 hours because getting 150 logged in Bravo is tough.

Not that the extra 400 is that important, just something to help motivate me to play more than 25 hours a week. I really want to post some result graphs but it takes freaking forever to grow a large sample size live.

/ramble
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Old 08-03-2018, 07:04 AM   #22063
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Definitely somewhere between B and C. A normal job you have breaks that may or may not be unpaid. A normal job you have commuting time. Also a normal job you don't get free food/drinks so I wouldn't even deduct tipping the cocktail server or food costs.
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Old 08-03-2018, 07:20 AM   #22064
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It's easy. If you're trying to figure out the financial benefit you gain from poker compared to something else, use A.
If you're trying to figure out what you make while actually playing, use C (most helpful for comparisons with other people).

You could ask the same question for working a "traditional" job, but since most people are only concerned with the cash they are taking home then the time to get there isn't a huge piece of the equation.

However when you compare it to another job the the transit time, down time, cash out time becomes important (opportunity cost).
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Old 08-03-2018, 10:56 AM   #22065
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Usually B. Unless I take an hour for diner or something and then I'll take that out. 5 minutes to take a leak or grab a coffee doesn't matter. C's too complicated for my log system.

I've done A in post processing before, adding extra hours based on the average driving time for specific rooms. But don't think it's worth it unless you're trying to decide to make a career out of poker. In which case you should also include study time IMO.
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Old 08-03-2018, 11:09 AM   #22066
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When someone says "I make $22/hr at work", whether they are a waiter, a carpenter, or whatever else, they aren't including driving time to and from work. They are counting the hours from when they clock in to when they clock out. If they get to work 15 min early but cant clock in yet, they dont count those hours. I dont see how poker players are any different. Why would we count driving time or time waiting to be seated or any of that?

If you want to compare how much money you can make in poker room A which is a 10 minute drive to money made in poker room B which is a 45 min drive, and you can only be gone from home for 5 hours, then you should include drive time when figuring out which room is more profitable overall for you. But I still wouldnt include drive time for purposes of your win rate.
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Old 08-03-2018, 11:20 AM   #22067
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I pretty much just compute Time I Leave Table - Time I Sit At Table, with the only exception being if I take a fairly long break (such as a dinner break). Not too worried about bathroom breaks where I probably only lose a few hands each time (and at the end of the night I'll round down to the nearest five minutes to help make up for this).

Including your driving / waiting to get on a table / etc. hours doesn't seem to make much sense in computing winrate because that means you'll have drastically different winrates at closer/further casinos / etc. and that seems like an odd way of comparing things (such as if you were interested in what games are better, assuming you'd ever get in enough hours over consistent conditions).

GcluelesswinratetrackingnoobG
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Old 08-03-2018, 11:52 AM   #22068
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeStarr View Post
When someone says "I make $22/hr at work", whether they are a waiter, a carpenter, or whatever else, they aren't including driving time to and from work.
That may be for a waiter, but some tradespeople get paid for travel time. I know this because I sell to companies who want to track that sort of thing.

That said, a poker player who's stated to the IRS that they're a professional gambler is an independent contractor. I don't know what the utility to track this other than for tax write-offs & deductions.
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Old 08-03-2018, 12:02 PM   #22069
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Even if you don't get paid for travel time, it's 100% considered when comparing job offers. That full time position that pays $10k/yr more but requires an extra hour commute? Might not be worth it.

It you've playing poker primarily as a hobby you should be much more worried about how you're *playing* and look at the table winrate. And then remember how much *other* hobbies/vices can cost per hour.
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Old 08-03-2018, 01:10 PM   #22070
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But compared to someone using A I might have like 20% fewer hours. I'm going to try to hit 150 hours this month but that might be hard if it's more like 190 hours playing waiting or driving to/from the casino. I chose 150 because there is a 400 dollar promo every 75 hours. Really wish they did that ever 50 or 60 hours because getting 150 logged in Bravo is tough.
when i played full time my hourly was time at the table. I had multiple years over 2k logged. Last year during the big promo SPC had logged approx 375 bravo hours in the calendar month (it was a 50 hr cycle, she nailed 7 promos and her w/r for the month was obscene). 150 is simply not that tough. It takes work to be able to log long sessions while maintaining focus. It doesnt happen overnight but with focus and discipline you can make it happen.
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Old 08-03-2018, 01:16 PM   #22071
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I'm guessing with hours like that you have to be a full-timer Shai?

I often wonder exactly how many full timers I have sitting in my lowly local 1/3 NL game. Seems there is an ever revolving cast of players who are attempting this (at least as far as my untrained naked eye can tell) but then eventually fade away.

GgoodluckG
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Old 08-03-2018, 02:38 PM   #22072
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when i played full time my hourly was time at the table. I had multiple years over 2k logged. Last year during the big promo SPC had logged approx 375 bravo hours in the calendar month (it was a 50 hr cycle, she nailed 7 promos and her w/r for the month was obscene). 150 is simply not that tough. It takes work to be able to log long sessions while maintaining focus. It doesnt happen overnight but with focus and discipline you can make it happen.


To be fair. You can do a lot w shorter sessions if you just go to and fro.

My number one game fix is to shut it down after I realize I may be tired and have played 2-3 hands sub optimally. Just pick up my chips and leave.


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Old 08-03-2018, 06:33 PM   #22073
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I'm guessing with hours like that you have to be a full-timer Shai?

I often wonder exactly how many full timers I have sitting in my lowly local 1/3 NL game. Seems there is an ever revolving cast of players who are attempting this (at least as far as my untrained naked eye can tell) but then eventually fade away.

GgoodluckG
Yeah I'm a full timer. Though my hours are nothing compared to SPC or squid even. I could theoretically do 200 a month, maybe even 300 if I had a prop bet or something, but my expenses aren't that high and playing that much is going to burn me out super fast.

I also sleep more than most people due to medications I'm on. Don't think I'm capable of playing 10 hours a day 6 days a week or whatever as that's 12 hours a day going to/from casino, leaving just time to eat and shower aside from sleeping.

I've noticed my attention starts declining pretty rapidly at the 8 hour mark but I'm working on ramping up my hours. For now though 150 hrs is plenty ambitious. Maybe I'll get to 2k a year eventually.
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Old 08-03-2018, 07:10 PM   #22074
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8 hours into a session I’m just starting to hit my groove.
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Old 08-03-2018, 07:39 PM   #22075
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shai - now that you have been around a while. I think a great way to avoid burnout it to kind of preplan your year. You now know what months the action is ossum, which ones are slow, and which ones have good promos too grind. So what I would do is plan certain times to be hardcore and work my ass off, times where I am in there working regularly, and times when I can take big chunks away and reset. This worked quite well for me.
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