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Old 07-09-2018, 08:29 PM   #21851
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Originally Posted by MikeStarr View Post
LRR,
I wasnt exxagerating. Surely you dont expect to beat 2/5 fo 8BBs+ if youre beating 1/2 for 10BBs, do you? Theres a huge skill difference.
yes and also the games play very differently, at least where I play, so there are adjustments to be made that can take time to work through and be comfortable with.

I was beating 1/2 and 2/3 for well over 10bb an hour before I moved up, basically with a strat of 'bet big with top 3% hands pre otherwise see cheap flops with speculative **** in late position and then go hard with 2 pair + post, know how to fold to aggression'.

That didn't even make me 4bb an hour when i moved up to 2/5 and 5/5 and I'd say it took me 2 years to change up my game properly...albeit I still make tons of mistakes every session
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Old 07-09-2018, 09:14 PM   #21852
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Well Mike it just doesn't make any sense then. Say you beat 2/5 for 8bb or you beat 1/3 for 13bb. Or you beat 2/5 for 5bb and you beat 1/3 for 8bb. Just doesn't make sense to play 2/5 unless you care way more about improving than about the money, which isn't the case for most people. That's probably why back home a lot of 2/5 regs stopped playing 2/5 and unfortunately started infesting the 1/3 games.
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Old 07-09-2018, 10:09 PM   #21853
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Well Mike it just doesn't make any sense then. Say you beat 2/5 for 8bb or you beat 1/3 for 13bb. Or you beat 2/5 for 5bb and you beat 1/3 for 8bb. Just doesn't make sense to play 2/5 unless you care way more about improving than about the money, which isn't the case for most people. That's probably why back home a lot of 2/5 regs stopped playing 2/5 and unfortunately started infesting the 1/3 games.
in those scenarios I would snap play the bigger game. I enjoy playing 'good' poker against better players - I like winning money and wouldn't play if I was a dog in the game, but improving as a player and being able to play/compete/win against better villains is a part of the mix.

maybe it's different if you're just doing it to pay the bills but even in that scenario, unless you're way underrolled, wouldn't the ami be to improve to the point where you could beat the bigger game for ore $$
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Old 07-09-2018, 10:09 PM   #21854
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Originally Posted by LordRiverRat View Post
Well Mike it just doesn't make any sense then. Say you beat 2/5 for 8bb or you beat 1/3 for 13bb. Or you beat 2/5 for 5bb and you beat 1/3 for 8bb. Just doesn't make sense to play 2/5 unless you care way more about improving than about the money, which isn't the case for most people. That's probably why back home a lot of 2/5 regs stopped playing 2/5 and unfortunately started infesting the 1/3 games.
I agree completely. However, Im talking about win rates when you first move up. If you are good enough to destroy 1/2 or 1/3, even though your win rate when you move up will drop quite a bit (possibly to the same absolute dollar figure), you should also be good enough to make adjustments after some time and start raising your 2/5 win rate and eventually be making quite a bit more money hourly.
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Old 07-09-2018, 11:17 PM   #21855
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Even though the skill jump from 1/2 to 2/5 is significant, the rake is also significantly better.
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Old 07-10-2018, 12:53 AM   #21856
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as a dnegs fan, I prefer higher rake
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Old 07-11-2018, 09:55 AM   #21857
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I dont know how that math works. How bad was the downswing? You went from $20K to $10K including or not including the hospital bill?

How would you be 2 months in debt for rent if you had 4-6 months life expenses saved up? If you have that money saved you pay the bills no matter what happens with poker. If you have a downswing you still pay your bills. I dont see how 4 months or 12 months saved affects that at all.

If your downswing AND hospital bill was a total of $10K out of your roll, so what? It sucks big time but its not devastating. Move back down to 1/2 for a while. Your bills are still paid out of your life roll and your poker roll is still fine as well. (Not to mention I wouldn't pay a large hospital bill in one shot. They will take payments over a very long time frame. Also, what about insurance?)

Clearly the more money saved the better. I'm just saying 4-6 months in life expenses and 30 buy ins for a long term winner should be fine. If you're trying to determine if you "could" make it as a pro, maybe not. Especially for a 1/2 player with a track record that's not all that long though. If you expect to beat 2/5 for 8BB+ you should be massacring 1/2 for 12-15BB+
I'm not laying out a spreadsheet of my expenses but it's not that complicated. 4 months life roll would have run out mid November. In late November I'm hospitalized.

So at this point I have half a month's living expenses plus hospital bills up to 25k (that I got reduced but still left with several thousand in bills plus expensive prescriptions I must take for two months). This money has to come out of my bankroll since my liferoll is gone. But my bankroll is around 20k at this point so suppose I take the expenses out. Fast forward to early January when my downswing ended. At this point I have a couple thousand more in expenses that have to be subtracted from the bankroll. And I went on a 10kish downswing.

I haven't worked out the exact numbers since it's a hypothetical but this scenario leaves me busto or extremely close. And if my hospital bills had not been reduced it's busto period.

And I did move down to 1/2 to grind my roll back but that would not have been possible if I hadn't saved far more than 4 months living expenses. And I know you said 4 to 6 mo tha and it's possible I might have been fine with 6 but I would not have been able to move up to 2/5 again and could have been stuck making 20 dollars an hour at 1/2 forever.

Just saying, stuff happens and most people going pro do not have health insurance or social security or any income besides what they have saved so better to err on the safe side so you're not one minor disaster away from busting. I didn't even have any operations. Can't imagine my bill if I had required my lungs drained or cardiac surgery.

Your main income may be poker but you have other income and benefits like health insurance from your former job, right? Not like that for young guys like me doing this.
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Old 07-11-2018, 10:11 AM   #21858
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I get what youre saying but you're talking about a perfect storm. A bad downswing at the same time as you get hospitalized. Most people will never go thru something like that. Kudos for saving a years expenses. Thats awesome and something most people will never have the discipline to do. I'm just saying 4-6 months will work for most people in most situations and its what most financial planners would tell someone who is starting a new business or really for anyone. Anyone should have that money saved in case they get laid off.

(and BTW...if they dont reduce the bill, which they ALWAYS will...just dont pay it. Tell them you will pay $50 per month until its paid off. There's nothing they can do about it. In your case even after it got reduced I wouldve paid $100-$200 per month and not the whole thing)
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Old 07-11-2018, 11:14 AM   #21859
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Actually Mike its not a perfect storm. Its called life. Life happens big time. This past january SPC broke her leg recreating. Luckily she has insurance. She ended up coming out of pocket 5k (deductible) which is no biggy. Also she had plenty saved so she wasnt worried about working so she was able to not sweat it. In 2006 I got severely unlucky and got into a life changing accident. I had insurance but it did not cover everything. I also lost over 2 years of my life recovering. Luckily I had banked a shtload of bux and came through it ok.

The point is gamboolin is tough - but going into it completely unprepared (like most do) - and not having insurance, or backup funds in case life gets in the way like it always does whether it is a broken leg, a car breaking down, or your kid needing braces - you need to have a bunch saved otherwise you are screwed.
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Old 07-11-2018, 11:43 AM   #21860
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Actually Mike its not a perfect storm. Its called life. Life happens big time. This past january SPC broke her leg recreating. Luckily she has insurance. She ended up coming out of pocket 5k (deductible) which is no biggy. Also she had plenty saved so she wasnt worried about working so she was able to not sweat it. In 2006 I got severely unlucky and got into a life changing accident. I had insurance but it did not cover everything. I also lost over 2 years of my life recovering. Luckily I had banked a shtload of bux and came through it ok.

The point is gamboolin is tough - but going into it completely unprepared (like most do) - and not having insurance, or backup funds in case life gets in the way like it always does whether it is a broken leg, a car breaking down, or your kid needing braces - you need to have a bunch saved otherwise you are screwed.
Absolutely. No argument there at all. I was able to retire fairly young due to being a massive saver/investor all my life.

Saving for the future trumps all and sooner or later you're going to be very glad you saved.
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Old 07-11-2018, 11:57 AM   #21861
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Man it’s depressing af seeing you all talk about having to pay huge medical bills even with insurance. Is it the insurance company you’re forced to negotiate with or the hospitals?
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Old 07-11-2018, 12:14 PM   #21862
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wj294- spc had a 5k deductible...pretty straight foreword
when i got into my accident my insurance simply did not cover all of my stuff so I had to come out of pocket for the difference.
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Old 07-11-2018, 01:12 PM   #21863
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Man it’s depressing af seeing you all talk about having to pay huge medical bills even with insurance. Is it the insurance company you’re forced to negotiate with or the hospitals?
Oh man, it's way more complicated than that. Rules itt are too strict to say more. Anyway, Americans do have to account for this. In other professions, it's not as big of a deal--as long as you account for it and have insurance of course. American salaries are typically higher for equal positions elsewhere, but this doesn't translate to poker apart from American rake typically being lower than elsewhere.
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Old 07-11-2018, 01:13 PM   #21864
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I'm switching apps to Poker Income to get standard deviation (95% conf) and import / export ability as eventually all of these apps will probably phase out. My current app doesn't do graphs either which doesn't bother me as much but will be nice to have. Anyone have any strong opinions of better tracking apps before I manually start entering in hundreds and hundreds of sessions?

Also, is it even worth posting a 200 hr sample here or should I wait for 500 or 1000? I'm typically only 500 hours a year and this year may be low due to life stuffs...
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Old 07-11-2018, 01:20 PM   #21865
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Don't manually import results. Poker Income has an import function, you just need to find the columns it uses and then modify your results to that format so you can import it. Personally, i like Poker Income the best and I ve tried everything.

However, I think they may be giving the wrong std deviation results.
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Old 07-11-2018, 01:30 PM   #21866
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Don't manually import results. Poker Income has an import function, you just need to find the columns it uses and then modify your results to that format so you can import it. Personally, i like Poker Income the best and I ve tried everything.

However, I think they may be giving the wrong std deviation results.
The Standard Dev calc being incorrect is concerning. Are you sure? Hopefully they can fix this. At any rate, I'm using Poker Mate and it has no export so I have no choice but to enter manually into Poker Income. I made sure to chose an app that has export for the future for this reason. Also, any missing stats I can export to excel and do myself.
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Old 07-11-2018, 01:58 PM   #21867
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Originally Posted by c0rnBr34d View Post
Also, is it even worth posting a 200 hr sample here or should I wait for 500 or 1000? I'm typically only 500 hours a year and this year may be low due to life stuffs...
I would guess ~500 hours per year is what a lot of us rec players are at (including me), so my suggestion would be to perhaps post yearly results (which a lot of us do) for lols and bargs and flaming.

Ggoodluck!G
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Old 07-11-2018, 02:33 PM   #21868
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It's always fine to see 200 hr samples or so, for discussion and documentation and whatnot.

I can say that as a relatively regular "rec" player that hits a game or two every week, sometimes more, sometimes skips, and sometimes a poker weekend somewhere ... 500-600 hours a year is pretty standard. My highest since 2008 was 708 hours in a year, lowest was 402 (when finishing a PhD). 354 so far this year so still on pace.
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Old 07-11-2018, 02:39 PM   #21869
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Moving to LA for work but going to start taking poker a bit more seriously too. One thing this means is actually keeping a no BS fully accurate journal.

What app is best for Android these days? Poker Income seems to have a lot of bad reviews recently and it appears the developers have abandoned it?
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Old 07-11-2018, 02:46 PM   #21870
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What app is best for Android these days? Poker Income seems to have a lot of bad reviews recently and it appears the developers have abandoned it?
Last update was 4 months ago and version history goes 5 years back, where did you read it was abandoned?
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Old 07-11-2018, 03:16 PM   #21871
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Last update was 4 months ago and version history goes 5 years back, where did you read it was abandoned?
Customer service for poker income is non existant...avoid.

I personally switched to poker agent from income...much better experience.
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Old 07-11-2018, 03:28 PM   #21872
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Customer service for poker income is non existant...avoid.

I personally switched to poker agent from income...much better experience.
Thanks for the feedback but I assume that's Andriod only as a search in the app store comes up blank.
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Old 07-11-2018, 04:06 PM   #21873
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Thanks for the feedback but I assume that's Andriod only as a search in the app store comes up blank.
Must've been a change some time along the line. I do remember Poker Agent used to be available for android, but that was years ago.
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Old 07-11-2018, 04:29 PM   #21874
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Must've been a change some time along the line. I do remember Poker Agent used to be available for android, but that was years ago.
That wasn't super clear, I meant agent must only be Andriod as I couldn't find it on iOS.
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Old 07-11-2018, 04:36 PM   #21875
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That wasn't super clear, I meant agent must only be Andriod as I couldn't find it on iOS.
Maybe it's not public anymore idk. I don't see it either for android.
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