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Old 06-16-2018, 08:47 AM   #21751
MikeStarr
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Originally Posted by SABR42 View Post
Why don't you tell me more about what you don't know but will pretend to know about!

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Why dont you do something outside of character for this forum and respond without being a smart ass.
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Old 06-16-2018, 09:06 AM   #21752
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Nah, It's way more fun to observe people try to argue things they have zero clue about.

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Old 06-16-2018, 09:15 AM   #21753
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Let me ask all of you this....in regards to this discussion, do you consider this math based or feel/read based?

Cutoff opens to $20. Button calls. I call with Jh9h BB.
Flop ($60) Th8c4s. I check. Cutoff bets $35. Button folds.

Now Ive played with this guy before. Hes an older guy who plays more like people used to back in the day which includes betting full pot when they have a real hand. He would likely bet $50-$60 with an overpair or AQ. I think he has AK because his raising range is pretty tight.

I check raise to $110 based on my read and my bet sizing tell. I could just check/call given the odds he gave me (the math part), but I prefer to be aggressive when I think I can take it away from him in this spot.

We can calculate the odds I gave him to call and continue if my read is correct that he has overcards. He may or may not call with overcards thinking Im making a move and that he can take it away on the turn even if he doesnt hit.

So is this hand being played based on math or based on reads/feel?
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Old 06-16-2018, 09:18 AM   #21754
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Math is math. It’s like gravity. You can’t not be using it. There are some people who may not understand the foundation of why they are doing something (a “feel” player seeing weakness and raising river), but there is still math behind what they are doing (exploitatively overraising your range vs. an exploitable capped range).

I don’t need to know how buoyancy works to take my kayak out, or how lift works to hang glide with squid. But physics and simple math is behind both, and understanding what’s happening will only improve you as a human being.

I don’t even calculate pot odds anymore fwiw.
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Old 06-16-2018, 09:18 AM   #21755
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Originally Posted by SABR42 View Post
Nah, It's way more fun to observe people try to argue things they have zero clue about.

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Go back and read my post. I specifically said I havent played that high so Im not going to argue this point

And yet you still turn it into an argument by giving a smart ass response instead of just giving a mature response like you probably would if we were talking in person.
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Old 06-16-2018, 09:28 AM   #21756
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Originally Posted by Avaritia View Post
Math is math. It’s like gravity. You can’t not be using it. There are some people who may not understand the foundation of why they are doing something (a “feel” player seeing weakness and raising river), but there is still math behind what they are doing (exploitatively overraising your range vs. an exploitable capped range).

I don’t need to know how buoyancy works to take my kayak out, or how lift works to hang glide with squid. But physics and simple math is behind both, and understanding what’s happening will only improve you as a human being.

I don’t even calculate pot odds anymore fwiw.
This is my point. When I semi bluff check raise the flop sensing weakness, Im still using math because I have to calculate the percentage of times I think he will fold combined with the percentage of times I will actually spike the turn and how much money I will make when I hit the turn compared to how much I lose when I miss or bluff off more money later in the hand.

So when people say I dont understand math, or that people successfully playing high stakes understand math better than others, we are really talking about a lot of the same things.

Sure the math guys can tell you the exact pot odds I gave villain on the flop quickly, but I dont think you need to be that precise with the math to succeed, as long as you have a general idea of the concepts. My argument is that the guy who has the best reads and know when to check raise that flop and gets away with it a much higher percentage of the time based on correctly reading villains weakness will do better than the guy who only calls the flop bet because he knows precisely his pot odds.

If a person was clairvoyant and knew villains precise cards he would crush a guy who could do complex math instantly but who's reads where average and he had to play vs a much wider range.

Obviously nobody can see their opponents cards but if you can narrow them down to 2 combos instead of 20 combos, the math gets much easier even for a math donk.
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Old 06-16-2018, 09:35 AM   #21757
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

This is not a HH-type strat thread. tMeale, take your question elsewhere please, and the math vs.(why does it have to be vs?) feel discussion is getting further and further from being on topic as well.
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Old 06-16-2018, 09:44 AM   #21758
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Quote:
Originally Posted by Avaritia View Post
Math is math. It’s like gravity. You can’t not be using it. There are some people who may not understand the foundation of why they are doing something (a “feel” player seeing weakness and raising river), but there is still math behind what they are doing (exploitatively overraising your range vs. an exploitable capped range).



I don’t need to know how buoyancy works to take my kayak out, or how lift works to hang glide with squid. But physics and simple math is behind both, and understanding what’s happening will only improve you as a human being.



I don’t even calculate pot odds anymore fwiw.


Good post

Basically covers it


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Old 06-16-2018, 09:45 AM   #21759
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Thnx to those who responded < 3
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Old 06-16-2018, 10:01 AM   #21760
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My 1/2 WR after 48 sessions. Going to move to 2/5 when I get to 10 100bb buy ins. Hopefully it's not a much harder game.
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Old 06-16-2018, 12:30 PM   #21761
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congrats Samo - great job
Thx much FW!
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Old 06-16-2018, 12:42 PM   #21762
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Nice, Randroid. Not a large sample, but very nice.
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Old 06-16-2018, 02:57 PM   #21763
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Originally Posted by meale View Post
Trying to prove something to a friend... Calling ALL LLSNL PROS OR WINNERS

Full ring 9-10 handed game 1/2 or 2/5,

Do we open KQo/AJo/67s from first position?
Pro - not even close.

Winner - about 9 bb/hr

Negatory on opening the three cited hands from first position.
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Old 06-16-2018, 03:44 PM   #21764
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Quote:
Originally Posted by meale View Post
Trying to prove something to a friend... Calling ALL LLSNL PROS OR WINNERS

Full ring 9-10 handed game 1/2 or 2/5,

Do we open KQo/AJo/67s from first position?
Depends on the game. I probably open these types of hands 12-15% from UTG.

I would almost rather do it with 67s TBH.
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Old 06-16-2018, 03:57 PM   #21765
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeStarr View Post
Let me ask all of you this....in regards to this discussion, do you consider this math based or feel/read based?

Cutoff opens to $20. Button calls. I call with Jh9h BB.
Flop ($60) Th8c4s. I check. Cutoff bets $35. Button folds.

Now Ive played with this guy before. Hes an older guy who plays more like people used to back in the day which includes betting full pot when they have a real hand. He would likely bet $50-$60 with an overpair or AQ. I think he has AK because his raising range is pretty tight.

I check raise to $110 based on my read and my bet sizing tell. I could just check/call given the odds he gave me (the math part), but I prefer to be aggressive when I think I can take it away from him in this spot.

We can calculate the odds I gave him to call and continue if my read is correct that he has overcards. He may or may not call with overcards thinking Im making a move and that he can take it away on the turn even if he doesnt hit.

So is this hand being played based on math or based on reads/feel?

A bet sizing tell you have on one player doesn't prove your point.

Better players won't give away as much information with their sizing. It makes them tougher to play against and math comes into the equation a lot more often.
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Old 06-16-2018, 04:58 PM   #21766
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Originally Posted by MikeStarr View Post
I havent played that high so Im not going to argue this point, but it sure doesnt sound right to me. From what Ive seen of those games and from what has been described to me, there's a hell of a lot more meta game type raising and reraising reg vs reg type hands where math has little to do with it and people are soul reading each other.

Maybe Im totally off base.
It's not even close.

There are some feel players playing the higher stakes, but they are usually rake losers in those games. Obviously, by virtue of not being too awful and having big rolls from doing well at lower stakes, they will usually stay in those stakes almost indefinitely (like they just break even, lose when games tough, win when a fish is in) so it might seem like there are feel players in higher games, but the higher you go, the less that is sustainable due to swings and higher expenses and of course, bigger and bigger loss rate.

During slow times, the biggest games can often be running around those feel players who beat smaller games.
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Old 06-16-2018, 05:25 PM   #21767
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

KQo/AJo are absolutely atrocious hands when you get flatted IP by multiple villains. Especially if people are aware that you raised UTG and adjust accordingly. I would even open 65s or even 54s before even thinking about those garbage offsuit hands. At least SCs have plenty of flops where a cbet is justified because of draws or backdoor draws where when you have AJo and the flop comes Q74r you're just like "well dry queen high flop cbet to rep the queen".

Having SCs sometimes in your UTG open range can up your win rate from that position considerably in certain line ups. How's that for being on topic Garick?
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Old 06-16-2018, 07:47 PM   #21768
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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KQo/AJo are absolutely atrocious hands when you get flatted IP by multiple villains. Especially if people are aware that you raised UTG and adjust accordingly. I would even open 65s or even 54s before even thinking about those garbage offsuit hands. At least SCs have plenty of flops where a cbet is justified because of draws or backdoor draws where when you have AJo and the flop comes Q74r you're just like "well dry queen high flop cbet to rep the queen".

Having SCs sometimes in your UTG open range can up your win rate from that position considerably in certain line ups. How's that for being on topic Garick?
Lol FK THE POLICE

But ye much appreciated , my thoughts exactly.

Spoiler:
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Old 06-16-2018, 07:56 PM   #21769
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Seriously, next non bankroll winrate or finances post ITT is eating a temp ban, and possibly a thread exile.

Only reason I haven't done it yet is giving the benefit of the doubt that some folks are replying before the read my warning above.
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Old 06-16-2018, 08:52 PM   #21770
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Fish on a heater... This is the first year I have religiously kept track of every single session and I know (1) I'm running super hot and (2) I don't play enough hours to get a meaningful sample but was wondering...

I've seen on here where folks discuss their longest breakeven period but I'm curious the other side of the spectrum. I'm nearing 100 hours for the year and am curious for those that have a lot of hours, what is your hottest 100 hour stretch in terms of bbs/hour?

Edit: Also if in addition to your hottest 100 hour period if you could share your total hourly, that would help me get a feel for where I might be when I'm off my heater.

Last edited by Joey913; 06-16-2018 at 09:14 PM.
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Old 06-16-2018, 09:04 PM   #21771
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Fish on a heater... This is the first year I have religiously kept track of every single session and I know (1) I'm running super hot and (2) I don't play enough hours to get a meaningful sample but was wondering...

I've seen on here where folks discuss their longest breakeven period but I'm curious the other side of the spectrum. I'm nearing 100 hours for the year and am curious for those that have a lot of hours, what is your hottest 100 hour stretch in terms of bbs/hour?
From memory my best 100 hour period was 40bb/hr (~$200/hr) at a 2/5 100bb cap game.
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Old 06-16-2018, 10:55 PM   #21772
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lol my hottest 100 hours has got to be insane. I won like 60k in 3 months at 2/5, where I was playing less than half my volume at 2/5 (prob <400 hours). I'm sure if I look for the hottest 100 hour stretch it'd be something like 30k+

(my lifetime winrate it something like 10bb/hour over all games/stakes, but I think it's kind of meaningless without specifying stake; my 2/5 lifetime is 15bb/hour)
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Old 06-17-2018, 06:49 AM   #21773
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Seriously, next non bankroll winrate or finances post ITT is eating a temp ban, and possibly a thread exile.

Only reason I haven't done it yet is giving the benefit of the doubt that some folks are replying before the read my warning above.
You are being way to soft imo...multiple warnings should not be necessary.
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Old 06-17-2018, 02:23 PM   #21774
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

I had 45bb/hr at 5/10 over about a 230hr stretch, but stacks were usually pretty deep.

I also had 66bb/hr at 25/50 but only over about 60 hrs. Ran hot vs the fish obv.

My hottest single session was in a $200 max buy in game I ran it up to $8900 in a 14hr session.
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Old 06-17-2018, 06:32 PM   #21775
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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I had 45bb/hr at 5/10 over about a 230hr stretch, but stacks were usually pretty deep.

I also had 66bb/hr at 25/50 but only over about 60 hrs. Ran hot vs the fish obv.

My hottest single session was in a $200 max buy in game I ran it up to $8900 in a 14hr session.
Man when am I gonna get some of this God mode run good?

So jealous.
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