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Old 04-30-2018, 05:07 AM   #21476
branch0095
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Quote:
Originally Posted by businessdude View Post
I'm curious if others are seeing this trend I am - there's more people buying in short including more buying in for the minimum at low stakes NLH. I was part of 10 players starting a new game last night, and I was the only one buying in for the max(300) - there was one guy for 250, like 3 or 4 at 200 and 3 or 4 at the minumum, 100.

And it's common for someone to buy in for say 200-300, but never reload and just linger with a small stack until - usually - they lose it or punt it off.

Is this good or bad? I actually don't like it from a poker strategy view, but I think it helps your winrate because these players are generally bad - and it really helps lower your variance. These stacks - although not very big - have an excellent chance of being donated to the table - and the players are not using the short stacks correctly even. Very common to see a player call a 20 raise with SC with a starting stack of 60-80.

I notice I have a very low variance to my play - I jst had a -470 session at 1/3 and it was prolly my worst in about 30 sessions. I have a lot of "boring" sessions where I play say for 5 hours, almost linearly go from 300 to 550 without any real big pots. I'd say 1/3 of my winning sessions are this way. I think it has to do with these short stacks - they just can't hurt you when they flop their sets or hit their draws, but they donate their chips in the process.

Anyone else notice this being a trend?
I see it a lot in my room. A couple weeks ago I actually ran Kings into Aces twice in a 4hr session (can't even remember the last time that happened), and afterwards I joked about how good I was running because both players had stacks under $70 (in a $100-$400 cap game).

I play in a pretty sizable room that usually has 10+ tables going any night of the week. Most are as you described, and they're near no-risk tables where you'll slowly and steadily make money without playing any big pots. There's usually at least 1 table I can move to that'll be the complete opposite, a high upside, high variance table with a ton of action, but usually with stronger players as well. I guess I'm somewhat fortunate that my home casino affords me the option to pick the type of game I want to play in on a daily basis depending on what kind of mood I'm in that day or how long I have to play that day.
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Old 04-30-2018, 08:27 AM   #21477
Koss
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Deeper is always better if you have an edge on your opposition, but I think its better to be at a table full of $100 fish than $400 decent regs. I play in a $400 cap game which almost no one buys in for. Deep stacked fish are very rare, unless they run up their buyin.

One thing I have noticed is so few people at these stakes understand the value of stack depth, or they just dont care. I can count on one hand the players who top off their stacks. So many, even decent regs, just nurse a $50 stack for an hour, bust, and then buy back in for $300.
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Old 04-30-2018, 10:31 AM   #21478
jelloman
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Does anyone record their win/loss record ? This stat comes with the app I use.
Not an real important stat imo, but I'm wondering what other players w/l record is .

I'm a rec player with 1 year of recorded results. Profit per Hr is 20.36 . W/L is 61% w, 39 % lose.

This is all at 1-2 NL
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Old 04-30-2018, 10:42 AM   #21479
MikeStarr
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Quote:
Originally Posted by jelloman View Post
Does anyone record their win/loss record ? This stat comes with the app I use.
Not an real important stat imo, but I'm wondering what other players w/l record is .

I'm a rec player with 1 year of recorded results. Profit per Hr is 20.36 . W/L is 61% w, 39 % lose.

This is all at 1-2 NL
That stat can be useful or can be totally meaningless. It would be fairly easy to artificially keep your session win/loss record pretty high by quitting early when youre ahead...or staying later than you had planned when youre down.

The stat will also be higher (for winning players) who play longer sessions. If there are 2 good players with similar win rates but one plays (2) 15 hr sessions per week and the other plays four 7.5 hr sessions per week...the first guys win/loss% is going to be higher long term.

Having said that, if you just play without regards to the stat and then happen to look at it way down the road, then it can be interesting. Most winning players are probably around your 61%.
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Old 04-30-2018, 12:36 PM   #21480
gobbledygeek
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Quote:
Originally Posted by businessdude View Post
I'm curious if others are seeing this trend I am - there's more people buying in short including more buying in for the minimum at low stakes NLH. I was part of 10 players starting a new game last night, and I was the only one buying in for the max(300) - there was one guy for 250, like 3 or 4 at 200 and 3 or 4 at the minumum, 100.

And it's common for someone to buy in for say 200-300, but never reload and just linger with a small stack until - usually - they lose it or punt it off.

Is this good or bad? I actually don't like it from a poker strategy view, but I think it helps your winrate because these players are generally bad - and it really helps lower your variance. These stacks - although not very big - have an excellent chance of being donated to the table - and the players are not using the short stacks correctly even. Very common to see a player call a 20 raise with SC with a starting stack of 60-80.

I notice I have a very low variance to my play - I jst had a -470 session at 1/3 and it was prolly my worst in about 30 sessions. I have a lot of "boring" sessions where I play say for 5 hours, almost linearly go from 300 to 550 without any real big pots. I'd say 1/3 of my winning sessions are this way. I think it has to do with these short stacks - they just can't hurt you when they flop their sets or hit their draws, but they donate their chips in the process.

Anyone else notice this being a trend?
As I've recognized my tables getting a lot tougher overall in general with fewer and fewer postflop morons, and yet still very loose preflop, I've actually moved towards this shorterstacked strategy myself (BIing for $200 in my 1/3 NL game and keeping my stack topped up to it, coming up of 600 hours using this tweaked strategy), plus mostly trying to move to these types of shorterstacked tables (or more avoiding deeper stacked tables when I become deepstacked if the deepstacks are competent).

Poker is definitely simpler at these tables (and basically revolves around preflop decisions which most of my opponents are getting horrendously wrong).

GcluelessshortstackingnoobG
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Old 04-30-2018, 12:41 PM   #21481
gobbledygeek
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Quote:
Originally Posted by jelloman View Post
Does anyone record their win/loss record ? This stat comes with the app I use.
Not an real important stat imo, but I'm wondering what other players w/l record is .

I'm a rec player with 1 year of recorded results. Profit per Hr is 20.36 . W/L is 61% w, 39 % lose.

This is all at 1-2 NL
Basically what Mike said above.

FWIW, I used to have one north of 70% for quite a while at 1/3 NL (70.2% at the 2000 hour mark), but now at the 3891 hour / 503 session mark I'm sitting at 65.2%.

GcluelesswinningsessionsnoobG
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Old 04-30-2018, 02:20 PM   #21482
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Quote:
Originally Posted by jelloman View Post
Does anyone record their win/loss record ? This stat comes with the app I use.

Not an real important stat imo, but I'm wondering what other players w/l record is .



I'm a rec player with 1 year of recorded results. Profit per Hr is 20.36 . W/L is 61% w, 39 % lose.



This is all at 1-2 NL


61% W in ~1200 hours of rec 1/2 <shame> at about half that win rate </shame>
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Old 04-30-2018, 02:50 PM   #21483
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Quote:
Originally Posted by gobbledygeek View Post
As I've recognized my tables getting a lot tougher overall in general with fewer and fewer postflop morons, and yet still very loose preflop, I've actually moved towards this shorterstacked strategy myself (BIing for $200 in my 1/3 NL game and keeping my stack topped up to it, coming up of 600 hours using this tweaked strategy), plus mostly trying to move to these types of shorterstacked tables (or more avoiding deeper stacked tables when I become deepstacked if the deepstacks are competent).

GcluelessshortstackingnoobG
What's your winrate over these 600 hrs? (I know you're going to post your winrate at the end of the year like you always do, but can you share now?)
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Old 04-30-2018, 03:25 PM   #21484
gobbledygeek
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Originally Posted by niceguy22 View Post
What's your winrate over these 600 hrs?
I've conveniently filtered this as my "Super Nit" (lol) filter in my PokerJournal, basically trying to tweak a strategy that saw me win in just the single digits $/hr in 2015 and 2017 (both over ~580 hour sample sizes). Sitting at $14.44/hr (4.81 bb/hr) over 583 hours with my "Super Nit" strategy, which I'm not too unhappy with considering that within this time frame I also tied my biggest ever downswing over about a ~200 breakeven stretch.

Gworkinprogressbutofftoapromisingstart,imoG
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Old 04-30-2018, 03:51 PM   #21485
tuds38
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

New Month's Resolution: Stop messing around on my phone in between hands.

Despite crushing 1-2 for the last few years, I still often find myself reading pointless nonsense on my phone instead of paying attention to the action. I'm a lot more likely to do it if I'm down or obviously if it is a boring game... I guess it's kind of an escape from the situation.

But while you are fluttering through Facebook, you might miss a comment or play that upgrades a player from fish to donkey, or maybe someone you underestimated shows a bluff but you don't even see it or have no idea what the line was.

On a similar note I have a new rule for myself that I won't play during a big sports game that I'm emotionally invested in. If "my" team is losing it will affect my mood and hence my play... even if they are winning it might cause me to care less about my own play quality / results.

General attentiveness at the table has to be worth at least a couple $ per hour.

Don't text and grind, it'll cost you blinds!
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Old 04-30-2018, 05:44 PM   #21486
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Quote:
Originally Posted by tuds38 View Post
New Month's Resolution: Stop messing around on my phone in between hands.

Despite crushing 1-2 for the last few years, I still often find myself reading pointless nonsense on my phone instead of paying attention to the action. I'm a lot more likely to do it if I'm down or obviously if it is a boring game... I guess it's kind of an escape from the situation.

But while you are fluttering through Facebook, you might miss a comment or play that upgrades a player from fish to donkey, or maybe someone you underestimated shows a bluff but you don't even see it or have no idea what the line was.

On a similar note I have a new rule for myself that I won't play during a big sports game that I'm emotionally invested in. If "my" team is losing it will affect my mood and hence my play... even if they are winning it might cause me to care less about my own play quality / results.

General attentiveness at the table has to be worth at least a couple $ per hour.

Don't text and grind, it'll cost you blinds!
Although I don't disagree with this, sometimes life EV and the freedom to watch the game or check your phone is more important than the sliver of win rate you get from paying full attention. At least at 1/3, most hands are stupidly boring to watch cause it's limp limp limp limp limp check check check. Occasionally I'll pick up something useful like "lol this guy limped AQ" but other than that I don't find it too useful unless there's a sizable pot.
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Old 04-30-2018, 05:47 PM   #21487
YGOchamp
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

I agree. You should strive to pay attention when possible, but there's absolutely merit for regular distractions to make playing more bearable. Hell, I'm sure checking my phone etc. helps me put in a lot more hours thus being plus EV
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Old 04-30-2018, 06:13 PM   #21488
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Quote:
Originally Posted by tuds38 View Post
New Month's Resolution: Stop messing around on my phone in between hands.

Despite crushing 1-2 for the last few years, I still often find myself reading pointless nonsense on my phone instead of paying attention to the action. I'm a lot more likely to do it if I'm down or obviously if it is a boring game... I guess it's kind of an escape from the situation.

But while you are fluttering through Facebook, you might miss a comment or play that upgrades a player from fish to donkey, or maybe someone you underestimated shows a bluff but you don't even see it or have no idea what the line was.

On a similar note I have a new rule for myself that I won't play during a big sports game that I'm emotionally invested in. If "my" team is losing it will affect my mood and hence my play... even if they are winning it might cause me to care less about my own play quality / results.

General attentiveness at the table has to be worth at least a couple $ per hour.

Don't text and grind, it'll cost you blinds!
I keep my watch on stop watch mode when I play. I basically let myself look at my phone every hour I play for about 5 minutes then I put my phone back in my pocket. Also turn off all notifications while you play so you don't even feel it vibrate.

I tend to try to have a soft focus while I play. Relaxed and willing to talk with my neighbors. GL!

EDIT: I have tried being super strict with myself and not take my phone out at all but I think that causes me more problems. If I'm in a tournament I won't take it out until break though.
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Old 04-30-2018, 06:21 PM   #21489
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My method is to basically not pay too much attention to small limped pots as well. It's not worth even the slight use of mental energy to focus on minutia - especially if you already have a decent read on players.
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Old 04-30-2018, 06:23 PM   #21490
tuds38
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

I'm not going cold turkey or anything, but sometimes I realize I barely have reads on the players I'm not already familiar with from past sessions. Maybe somewhat complacent in expecting to win.

I also play a fair bit of mixed limit games in which case you can learn a lot about their hand selection and aggression level with draws... but sometimes I'm just not engaged enough. Until now!
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Old 04-30-2018, 07:26 PM   #21491
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Quote:
Originally Posted by businessdude View Post

Anyone else notice this being a trend?
I'm 98% sure as their variance increases so does yours. And when they short stack you are effectively short stacked as well so your variance is higher right along with theirs.

Having said that most people who buy in short are worse than their average competition.
Otherwise they'd be buying in deeper to allow them selves the full range of options at any point.
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Old 04-30-2018, 08:23 PM   #21492
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Phone derail is interesting, but not on topic for this thread. Please take it to the chat thread.
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Old 04-30-2018, 08:26 PM   #21493
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I know this has been discussed before -- but whats the best tracking apps for android?

I used poker income, but the graphs kinda suck and exporting the data is near impossible.
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Old 04-30-2018, 08:30 PM   #21494
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Excel or Google sheets.
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Old 04-30-2018, 09:38 PM   #21495
YGOchamp
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OK let me add that I'm a lazy piece of **** and would not like to do work, due to the prior statement of me being a lazy piece of ****
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Old 04-30-2018, 10:01 PM   #21496
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Quote:
Originally Posted by jelloman View Post
Does anyone record their win/loss record ?

I'm a rec player with 1 year of recorded results. Profit per Hr is 20.36 . W/L is 61% w, 39 % lose.

This is all at 1-2 NL
At 1/2, in sessions am 63% win, 37% loss over 1300 hours.
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Old 04-30-2018, 10:04 PM   #21497
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Quote:
Originally Posted by YGOchamp View Post
OK let me add that I'm a lazy piece of **** and would not like to do work, due to the prior statement of me being a lazy piece of ****

if you export from PokerIncome using comma separated values (CSV), you can paste that output into a text file and then import that into Excel. Personally i don’t know how to get nice graphs after that, maybe Angrist can help past that step
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Old 04-30-2018, 10:14 PM   #21498
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Quote:
Originally Posted by YGOchamp View Post
I know this has been discussed before -- but whats the best tracking apps for android?

I used poker income, but the graphs kinda suck and exporting the data is near impossible.
Poker Agent AINEC.

Quote:
Originally Posted by iraisetoomuch View Post
Excel or Google sheets.
-1
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Old 05-01-2018, 10:59 AM   #21499
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Poker Bankroll Tracker is pretty awesome IMO.
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Old 05-01-2018, 11:15 AM   #21500
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

(deleted - just saw G's post on this derail)

GcluelessderailnoobG
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