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Old 04-18-2018, 03:18 PM   #21401
gobbledygeek
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Originally Posted by spw View Post
live big blinds per hour should be lower than online big blinds per 100 hands correct?
Are you asking how to convert bb/100 hands into bb/hr, or what comparable winrates would be for online vs live?

I have zero idea what comparable winrates would be, but with bb/100 you'd have to divide by about 3 to equate to live bb/hr (based on ~30ish hands per hour). Also, what's rake like for online games? I have zero experience with online, but my guess (???) would be that live rake / tips / BBJ add up to a whole lot more than online, which again means you might have to subtract quite a lot off in terms of bb/hr (especially at the lower staked games / smaller stacked games where rake has a huge effect).

GcluelessonlinenoobG
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Old 04-18-2018, 06:41 PM   #21402
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Live crusher, let's say 8bb/hr. 30 hands an hour. That means the equivalent winrate is 27bb/100 for the live crusher. Online crusher = 5-10bb/100. But they can play anywhere from 200-1500 hands an hour as opposed to just 30.

@gg, online rake is substantially lower (2-9bb/100).
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Old 04-19-2018, 02:47 PM   #21403
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so the live crusher can achieve a higher bb/100 with the reason being mainly the softer games but cant get in the high volume of hands to ease the swings that they can online

and the achievable bb/100 being 3x higher in live games must mean live games are still good
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Old 04-19-2018, 06:22 PM   #21404
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so the live crusher can achieve a higher bb/100 with the reason being mainly the softer games but cant get in the high volume of hands to ease the swings that they can online

and the achievable bb/100 being 3x higher in live games must mean live games are still good
Live games have been and always will be good. The variance I feel is actually somewhat comparable imo... Live you can have losing months in the same way that you can online too, depending on your winrate and what sort of volume you put in. I feel like the variance in live can be a little more brutal though especially if you're playing less than 160 hours a month.
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Old 04-20-2018, 12:25 AM   #21405
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I think the variance depends on the stakes. At 1/2 and 1/3 the variance should be pretty mild but 2/5 the variance is way worse not just cause of the increase in stakes but also cause it plays more aggro. Ed Miller talked about 15, 20 even 30k downswings for good winning players. I'm a little skeptical of anything about 3k bbs but I'm sure Ed Miller knows what he's talking about. I've never had a downswing worse than 2k for 1/2 and 1/3 over maybe close to 1k hours lifetime. Have not played enough 2/5 to really say.
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Old 04-20-2018, 12:57 AM   #21406
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I think the variance depends on the stakes. At 1/2 and 1/3 the variance should be pretty mild but 2/5 the variance is way worse not just cause of the increase in stakes but also cause it plays more aggro. Ed Miller talked about 15, 20 even 30k downswings for good winning players. I'm a little skeptical of anything about 3k bbs but I'm sure Ed Miller knows what he's talking about. I've never had a downswing worse than 2k for 1/2 and 1/3 over maybe close to 1k hours lifetime. Have not played enough 2/5 to really say.
I'd say you've been lucky then, or are much better than I am, or have a much lower variance style. I'm currently in a 4k downswing at 1/2, over four sessions. Didn't seem possible to me either until it was happening. It's amazing what 50 hours can do to your results. I don't tilt anymore either as far as I can tell. Just pure run bad. I make a nutted hand, someone else has the nuts. I make the nuts, it's a chop. I try one or two big bluffs a night and they all get snapped off in ridiculous spots. Get set/set OTT after the money's gone in OTF. Calling station calls down huge raise with AX spikes his kicker OTR. Every time I make TPTK or an OP I get drawn out OTR. One session this happened literally every time. One guy hit six flushes against me, out of six times drawing to flushes. I only paid him off once OTR but still. Crazy. How many flushes have I made over this period? Zero IIRC. I did make the nut straight once but got drawn out by 2p to a boat OTR.

Live variance feels way worse to me than online because you have to sit there and watch as the dealer keeps taking your money and giving it to the luckboxes. And you wait for hours being card dead, finally make a hand like top two, and villain has flopped bottom set. When I played online I played lots of tables so like one day of online play equals a month of live play.

I would tend to believe Ed Miller here. He's talking about many pros and semi-pros playing 1000+ hours a year, some maybe 2000. Over 5 to 10 years of that I'm sure all kinds of insane downswings and upswings can happen, much less if they've been doing it 20 years.
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Old 04-20-2018, 05:06 AM   #21407
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I think the variance depends on the stakes. At 1/2 and 1/3 the variance should be pretty mild but 2/5 the variance is way worse not just cause of the increase in stakes but also cause it plays more aggro. Ed Miller talked about 15, 20 even 30k downswings for good winning players. I'm a little skeptical of anything about 3k bbs but I'm sure Ed Miller knows what he's talking about. I've never had a downswing worse than 2k for 1/2 and 1/3 over maybe close to 1k hours lifetime. Have not played enough 2/5 to really say.
I can't imagine even a half-decent player having a $30k downswing at $2/5....you should probably just quit if it gets that bad...and that's 6k bb, not 3k. Maybe if you are just eternally in the abyss and lose every all-in forever.
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Old 04-20-2018, 05:33 AM   #21408
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I can't imagine even a half-decent player having a $30k downswing at $2/5....you should probably just quit if it gets that bad...and that's 6k bb, not 3k. Maybe if you are just eternally in the abyss and lose every all-in forever.
I think after the first -15k the second -15k would be mostly tilt and spew. Maybe some long time 2/5 winners can chime in here and talk about their biggest/longest downswing.
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Old 04-20-2018, 06:23 AM   #21409
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I can't imagine even a half-decent player having a $30k downswing at $2/5....you should probably just quit if it gets that bad...and that's 6k bb, not 3k. Maybe if you are just eternally in the abyss and lose every all-in forever.
+1

30K downswing even at 2-5 sounds through the roof, and i would bet a healthy amount of money that you have blindspots (leaks) in your game that you arent aware of yourself if youre experiencing such of a downswing. I am sorry but i dont really care if its Ed Miller or anybody else who make such claims: to me it sounds like a way to justify way too big of swings for a certain stake, that is very likely happenning to you because you have weaknesses in your game and your game isnt as good as you may think.

Blindspots is incredibly challenging by the way, just because you cant know what you dont know. Its very likely you need other good players around you to pinpoint where you are bleeding money, and where your leaks are (wich you dont know that you have).
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Old 04-20-2018, 06:37 AM   #21410
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I'd say you've been lucky then, or are much better than I am, or have a much lower variance style. I'm currently in a 4k downswing at 1/2, over four sessions. Didn't seem possible to me either until it was happening. It's amazing what 50 hours can do to your results. I don't tilt anymore either as far as I can tell. Just pure run bad. I make a nutted hand, someone else has the nuts. I make the nuts, it's a chop. I try one or two big bluffs a night and they all get snapped off in ridiculous spots. Get set/set OTT after the money's gone in OTF. Calling station calls down huge raise with AX spikes his kicker OTR. Every time I make TPTK or an OP I get drawn out OTR. One session this happened literally every time. One guy hit six flushes against me, out of six times drawing to flushes. I only paid him off once OTR but still. Crazy. How many flushes have I made over this period? Zero IIRC. I did make the nut straight once but got drawn out by 2p to a boat OTR.

Live variance feels way worse to me than online because you have to sit there and watch as the dealer keeps taking your money and giving it to the luckboxes. And you wait for hours being card dead, finally make a hand like top two, and villain has flopped bottom set. When I played online I played lots of tables so like one day of online play equals a month of live play.

I would tend to believe Ed Miller here. He's talking about many pros and semi-pros playing 1000+ hours a year, some maybe 2000. Over 5 to 10 years of that I'm sure all kinds of insane downswings and upswings can happen, much less if they've been doing it 20 years.

This is why i have always talked about the importance of mental stableness,patience and self discipline, and how big of an edge it is in livepoker to not lose your **** like ever. Much much more important than technical abilities. In livepoker you have to be balanced enough mentally that you can handle being in painful moments. And keep being present in the game- even if its painful. Cause if you cant, youre not thinking correctly anymore, your ranging gets unaccurate, you change your game to the worse because your losing and cant think straight anymore.

Like,how important it is to be able to remove yourself from the table to prevent tilting away money if you are getting steamed up and losing your mental stableness. Go get a drink, coffee, go home, grab a burger,go home and fire up pornhub i dont care: but you somehow need to get yourself away from the table when its appropriate.How important it is to keep calm, keep your patience and not starting to play garbage hands in order to chase losses when you are in a downswing. How important it is to not change your game when you are losing, for example gambling with a wider stackoff range or starts firing more big bluffs because youre losing it mentally.

I come back to these things over and over again in different discussions, so its quite interesting and always good reminders to make some reflections upon.

That being said, big downswings like 4-5K is certainly possible at 1-2 and 1-3 if the doomswitch really get turned on (wich it eventuelly does, so brace yourself), without you playing bad or spewing. But still, like mentioned from other posters, the likelyhood of bad play, mental tilt,worse decisionmaking and unaccurate ranging and those kind of stuff prolonging the "downswing" is very high.

Last edited by Petrucci; 04-20-2018 at 06:48 AM.
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Old 04-20-2018, 06:50 AM   #21411
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I can't imagine even a half-decent player having a $30k downswing at $2/5....you should probably just quit if it gets that bad...and that's 6k bb, not 3k. Maybe if you are just eternally in the abyss and lose every all-in forever.
Guess you're not very imaginative.

It blows my mind how optimistic most poker players are. What? A downswing of size X you say? That couldn't possibly happen to me or anyone good.

I've had a 4k downswing at 1/2. That's equivalent to 10k or more at 2/5, presumably more like 15k since my 2/5 winrate is likely lower and variance higher. And I'm a winning player. Actually I'm still in the downswing, and since past events don't influence future events in poker, there's no reason to assume I magically recover at this point just because if I didn't that would be too unreasonably large a downswing for a good player.

@Petrucci - I don't really tilt anymore. Not in any way I can detect, either while playing or afterward. I can't point to a single hand over this period I think I misplayed. In the past this was certainly not the case, and I've had several sessions where I lost 1k+ where if I hadn't tilted I probably could have halved my losses, but lately it's not like that. I mean it's certainly possible my play is being subtly affected in some way I can't detect, but when I review the hands my play looks totally standard. Just running into top of villains' ranges over and over. I just try to make the best decisions possible and I have no expectations from the cards. They fall as they fall. Eventually I should have correspondingly absurd upswings, but hasn't happened yet.
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Old 04-20-2018, 07:04 AM   #21412
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Shai: way to go man, seems like you have worked alot on plugging mental leaks regarding to tilt for example. My post on the topic wasnt aimed at you, it was just some general reflections on the topic, so hope it didnt come across like i was shooting at you.

You will get out if you keep playing your A game and moving forward. Even though it doesent feel like it when youre in the downswing and nothing goes your way at the tables. I know the feeling and how challenging it can be. Was attending my first Vegas trip during WSOP 2 years ago now, staying for 2 weeks to grind. In the softest games in the world filled with ridic bad drunken tourists i went directly on a $3500 downswing at 1-2 and 1-3. Like flopping 4 sets in one night, all of em up in flames by gutterballs for stacks. Running KK into AA 3 times in one night. Get set over setted repeteadly, and on the wrong side everytime. And it seems like it never ends when youre in it, thats the most challenging part: really believe that it can and will turn around if you keep going.

Like if the doomswitch gets dark, it gets dark and it can really make any sane person lose their **** and do stupid stuff.
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Old 04-20-2018, 07:52 AM   #21413
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Shai: way to go man, seems like you have worked alot on plugging mental leaks regarding to tilt for example. My post on the topic wasnt aimed at you, it was just some general reflections on the topic, so hope it didnt come across like i was shooting at you.
I did figure it was directed at me because of the quote but I certainly didn't take offense or anything, and I agree with everything you wrote. And thanks as far as plugging mental leaks etc.

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You will get out if you keep playing your A game and moving forward. Even though it doesent feel like it when youre in the downswing and nothing goes your way at the tables. I know the feeling and how challenging it can be. Was attending my first Vegas trip during WSOP 2 years ago now, staying for 2 weeks to grind. In the softest games in the world filled with ridic bad drunken tourists i went directly on a $3500 downswing at 1-2 and 1-3. Like flopping 4 sets in one night, all of em up in flames by gutterballs for stacks. Running KK into AA 3 times in one night. Get set over setted repeteadly, and on the wrong side everytime. And it seems like it never ends when youre in it, thats the most challenging part: really believe that it can and will turn around if you keep going.
That's pretty nasty. Being at those great tables and running bad is the worst. It's interesting I've always run the worst at very good tables. I had very good tables in all my recent losing sessions. I mean any table where someone calls a 4x x/r OTT with a non-nutted gutshot is pretty good, right? He just happened to get there. Or where a guy consistently calls my turn overbets with a naked flush draw? He just happened to get there 6/6 times, which he showed me every time after I folded so could have been a lot worse if he mixed in some bluffs. I imagine this is a pretty common pattern of running the worst at good tables. At nitty tables it's hard to win much but hard to lose much either because they just won't give you much action, but I've been consistently at action tables recently where people are stacking off with TPNK, some players playing literally ATC, but when I'm in a pot against those guys suddenly they've got a set. During my most recent and worst session, one of the other recs after he saw me lose a massive pot after showing first where it looked like I was probably good (got slowrolled incidentally), he says "Son, did you run over somebody's dog or something?" I just laughed and shook my head.

Yeah I know it'll turn around. This just came at a frustrating time for me as I was less than 2k short of my BR goal for moving up to 2/5, and now I'm more like 6k short. I've decided for the time being I'm going to make the somewhat longer drive over to Derby Lane (home of the nearest 1/3) in St. Petersburgh, a game for which I'm amply rolled, and see if I can grind up my BR any quicker.

I try to stay positive but at the same time I try not to have expectations from a game where the short term results are pretty freaking random. In one 12 hour session of 1/3 500 cap I could win 5k or drop 3k and anywhere in between. So I'd love to go on an upswing or even have one nice winning session (it's been a while since I had a 4BI+ win), but que sera sera.

Anyway thanks for the words of encouragement.
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Old 04-20-2018, 08:05 AM   #21414
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Pettrucci - A+ poasts there my man!

I am convinced that my 21 background has helped my w/r an absolute ton. Every decision in blackjack is binary. If the count is good I raise my bet. The amt I bet is dictated by how big my true count is. There is no deviation. Same holds true for my decisions as to hit/stand etc. Getting absolutely nuked and losing bet after bet and staying robotic is something that I have honed after thousands upon thousands of hours of advantage blackjack play

The point of that is. With all of this experience being a robot I have reasonable insight to my mental state while playing a game for a living. I can feel small changes in my thought process. AND these small changes make for massive changes in my decisions. When I start to feel these - bang, Im either taking a break or I am done for the day.

These small changes (tilt) do not happen often. But they happen often enough that if I did not address them in a timely fashion my w/r would be significantly lower and my down swings would obviously be significantly larger. The more I play the more I realize how important this aspect of my game is

I have stated this numerous times in this thread but it was asked recently so

My largest DS in 2/5 is approx 7.5k It is larger than robfarha, SPC, Goose, Cushlash, and several other pros with high w/rs.
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Old 04-20-2018, 08:13 AM   #21415
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I did figure it was directed at me because of the quote but I certainly didn't take offense or anything, and I agree with everything you wrote. And thanks as far as plugging mental leaks etc.



That's pretty nasty. Being at those great tables and running bad is the worst. It's interesting I've always run the worst at very good tables. I had very good tables in all my recent losing sessions. I mean any table where someone calls a 4x x/r OTT with a non-nutted gutshot is pretty good, right? He just happened to get there. Or where a guy consistently calls my turn overbets with a naked flush draw? He just happened to get there 6/6 times, which he showed me every time after I folded so could have been a lot worse if he mixed in some bluffs. I imagine this is a pretty common pattern of running the worst at good tables. At nitty tables it's hard to win much but hard to lose much either because they just won't give you much action, but I've been consistently at action tables recently where people are stacking off with TPNK, some players playing literally ATC, but when I'm in a pot against those guys suddenly they've got a set. During my most recent and worst session, one of the other recs after he saw me lose a massive pot after showing first where it looked like I was probably good (got slowrolled incidentally), he says "Son, did you run over somebody's dog or something?" I just laughed and shook my head.

Yeah I know it'll turn around. This just came at a frustrating time for me as I was less than 2k short of my BR goal for moving up to 2/5, and now I'm more like 6k short. I've decided for the time being I'm going to make the somewhat longer drive over to Derby Lane (home of the nearest 1/3) in St. Petersburgh, a game for which I'm amply rolled, and see if I can grind up my BR any quicker.

I try to stay positive but at the same time I try not to have expectations from a game where the short term results are pretty freaking random. In one 12 hour session of 1/3 500 cap I could win 5k or drop 3k and anywhere in between. So I'd love to go on an upswing or even have one nice winning session (it's been a while since I had a 4BI+ win), but que sera sera.

Anyway thanks for the words of encouragement.
I've spent some time in the Tampa area a few months ago. Maybe take a road trip to Sarasota and play at one eye jacks just to get a change of scenery. A lot of times when I'm in a down swing I'm also playing bad (my tilt is passive, I stop 3 -betting with JJ and AK out of the small blind and just try to hit hands) and by switching locations it allows me to hit the reset button a little easier.

GL man, I've played some 1/3 at Derby, those games can be really good.
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Old 04-20-2018, 08:45 AM   #21416
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Let's actually look up what Ed Miller said about this as I have the feeling it's been grossly misinterpreted:

"I wouldn't even think of playing 2-5 on a regular basis with less than a $20,000 bankroll. Pros can and do have downswings of $15,000 or more at this level. And these are professional-level players with relatively high, well-established win rates. If there's a decent chance you don't play the game as well as these players, your win rate will be lower, and you'll be exposed to potentially bigger downswings. It would not shock me to hear of a winning (but not elite) 2-5 player suffering a $30,000 or bigger downswing." - Ed Miller, "The Course" p. 215

Okay so it looks like this statement has butchered pretty badly if people are interpreting it as Ed Miller saying a 30k downswing at 2/5 is probable. All he says is two things:

A) Pros can and do have downswings of 15k+ (note "pro" does not mean super mega crusher)

B) A marginally winning player could possibly go on a 30k downswing

Neither of these statements seem unreasonable.

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My largest DS in 2/5 is approx 7.5k It is larger than robfarha, SPC, Goose, Cushlash, and several other pros with high w/rs.
To be fair, you're more in super mega crusher territory than your average 2/5 pro, correct? And if you've had a 7.5k downswing being a super mega crusher, it's very believable a worse but winning player might go 15k+, or even that a similarly skilled player might just run worse. It stands to reason pros with exceptionally high winrates are less likely to go on large downswings.

I mean if these downswings are so unlikely why do I even need 20k to play 2/5?

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I've spent some time in the Tampa area a few months ago. Maybe take a road trip to Sarasota and play at one eye jacks just to get a change of scenery. A lot of times when I'm in a down swing I'm also playing bad (my tilt is passive, I stop 3 -betting with JJ and AK out of the small blind and just try to hit hands) and by switching locations it allows me to hit the reset button a little easier.

GL man, I've played some 1/3 at Derby, those games can be really good.
I've thought about coming down to OEJ and it's actually not that far from where I live. I'll probably do it eventually. Yeah I'm looking for a temporary change of scenery. I recognize like half the 1/2 player pool at SHRT and all the dealers.
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Old 04-20-2018, 09:32 AM   #21417
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Clearly the higher your win rate, the less downswings and shallower downswings you will have. My worst downswing in about 3500 hours of 2/5 is also about $7500. It felt like my guts were being ripped out.
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Old 04-20-2018, 09:36 AM   #21418
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Shai - every one that i listed as a game that I really respect. They are or have been top tier pros. I think you are a very smart dude and I actually think that we have in fact played together. I am not sure how much you "need" I have not played to a roll in so long I can not remember what it is like to be short rolled.

The main reason why you need a 20k roll imo things can and do happen. Also as you have found out - life happens. Cars break down. Roofs leak. SPC broke her leg kiteboarding and she has a 5k deductible. Kids get sick, need braces, diapers, new clothes, etc, etc.

I honestly could not imagine the stress of trying to build a roll in this day and age - with the current landscape of poker. I am not saying that the sky is falling BUT - earnings are capped much lower than they were 15 years ago.

Another thing about blackjack is if you play perfect you know exactly how much you need to be 1/2 Kelly. Poker is beautiful b/c most players delude themselves to believe they are better than they actually are - which obv keeps the game going. Maybe me and my poker pals are massive outliers in the luck department. I personally do not think so but its def possible. Point being every one needs different size rolls based on an absolute ton of factors. Dude with a wife, mortgage, and a kid is going to need an absolute ton more than a single dude with no debt sharing an apartment
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Old 04-20-2018, 09:38 AM   #21419
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it’s not the waves if you can’t paddle out afterwards. This point has been made ITT often but if you have 10k it’s not a 7k downswing to worry about but what you’re gonna do with the remaining 3k.

here’s my experience with that

[spoiler]


focus on the last 23 months:





[spoiler]
f poker
[/spoiler]

[/spoiler]
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Old 04-20-2018, 09:41 AM   #21420
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Clearly the higher your win rate, the less downswings and shallower downswings you will have. My worst downswing in about 3500 hours of 2/5 is also about $7500. It felt like my guts were being ripped out.
Yeah these are the worst. When every thin value bet or close call you make goes the wrong way for a month you question everything you thought you ever knew about poker.
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Old 04-20-2018, 09:47 AM   #21421
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Originally Posted by Koss View Post
Yeah these are the worst. When every thin value bet or close call you make goes the wrong way for a month you question everything you thought you ever knew about poker.
Yesterday in the first hour or so I raised 7 times and didnt flop a single pair or single draw. A few of those I Cbet and lost more. When that stuff happens and then you finally flop the nuts and get busted, there's not much you can do no matter how good you are. Whats worse is at the same time someone hits quads twice in 4 hands. Someone else wins $2000 in like 20 mins hitting everything and youre just sitting there thinking youll never win another pot in your whole life.
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Old 04-20-2018, 09:48 AM   #21422
Petrucci
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Originally Posted by squid face View Post
Shai - every one that i listed as a game that I really respect. They are or have been top tier pros. I think you are a very smart dude and I actually think that we have in fact played together. I am not sure how much you "need" I have not played to a roll in so long I can not remember what it is like to be short rolled.

The main reason why you need a 20k roll imo things can and do happen. Also as you have found out - life happens. Cars break down. Roofs leak. SPC broke her leg kiteboarding and she has a 5k deductible. Kids get sick, need braces, diapers, new clothes, etc, etc.

I honestly could not imagine the stress of trying to build a roll in this day and age - with the current landscape of poker. I am not saying that the sky is falling BUT - earnings are capped much lower than they were 15 years ago.

Another thing about blackjack is if you play perfect you know exactly how much you need to be 1/2 Kelly. Poker is beautiful b/c most players delude themselves to believe they are better than they actually are - which obv keeps the game going. Maybe me and my poker pals are massive outliers in the luck department. I personally do not think so but its def possible. Point being every one needs different size rolls based on an absolute ton of factors. Dude with a wife, mortgage, and a kid is going to need an absolute ton more than a single dude with no debt sharing an apartment
Thanks for the A+ verdict on my poasts Squid, appreciate that.

And had to highlight this: because that is something that i also talk alot with my poker grinding friends about. The beauty of poker is that anybody can delude themself for x amount of time, in x amount of ways no matter how bad they are. The slow nature of livepoker makes people forget about results, selective memory(remember 1 win but not 5 losses) and people basically can lie to themself how much they want in infinite time stretches.

In the homegame scene in Norway where i have logged the most hours, i regurarly play with bad regs/fish who have played poker for 20-25 years losing steadily: and still they manage to lie to themself thinking seriously they are good winning players,when anybody remotely good can rip them apart due to all their glaring leaks. Its just mindboogling to see it unfold in real time, then i started to understand just how huge this deluding thing is for poker and how it keeps losing players coming back over and over and over again. Its like their brain/ego cant handle the reality about they are NOT as good as they think, so therefor the defense mechanism is to literally fool themself and creating another reality that fits their narrative about them being good players.
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Old 04-20-2018, 10:24 AM   #21423
dth123451
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Shades of FGators ITT
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Old 04-20-2018, 10:40 AM   #21424
Garick
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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And it seems like it never ends when youre in it, thats the most challenging part
QFMFT!
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Old 04-20-2018, 11:58 AM   #21425
niceguy22
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Originally Posted by Shai Hulud View Post
I can't point to a single hand over this period I think I misplayed.
I gotta say that this seems like a major leak. I haven't even been on any kind of a downswing in the past few months, but I honestly rarely play a session without making a mistake. Like probably at least 75% of my sessions have mistakes in them that I recognize afterwards, and there have to be more that I don't even recognize.

Recognizing mistakes is pretty key to not going on prolonged downswings. A good player recently told me that honesty is the key to poker and it is very true.
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