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Old 04-01-2018, 08:02 PM   #21276
VipassanaMan
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Just a general question. For those who are playing full-time and on the east coast, is 60-70k a year feasible playing 2/5 full time? Assuming you can win 6 BB/hr long term it seems doable and I've read posts alluding to this sort of yearly gain for regs. Also for myself I have a bit of a higher win-rate long term although I play part time and it's almost always 1/2, although my records do have some hours of 1/3 and 2/5 but not enough at those stakes for a good sample. (Been trying to log many many hours at 1/2 to iron out most of the kinks before I move up, roll is not an issue.)

People in other areas can also chime in, I just wanted to specify because games and skill levels vary based on geographical location. Thanks for the responses.
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Old 04-01-2018, 08:52 PM   #21277
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Originally Posted by VipassanaMan View Post
Just a general question. For those who are playing full-time and on the east coast, is 60-70k a year feasible playing 2/5 full time? Assuming you can win 6 BB/hr long term it seems doable and I've read posts alluding to this sort of yearly gain for regs. Also for myself I have a bit of a higher win-rate long term although I play part time and it's almost always 1/2, although my records do have some hours of 1/3 and 2/5 but not enough at those stakes for a good sample. (Been trying to log many many hours at 1/2 to iron out most of the kinks before I move up, roll is not an issue.)

People in other areas can also chime in, I just wanted to specify because games and skill levels vary based on geographical location. Thanks for the responses.
Seems like an easy answer to me. If you can win 6BB/hr that's $30/hr. To make $60,000 you need to play 2000 hours which is about the amount of hours a normal person works every year.

So the question is can you beat 2/5 for 6BBs or more? Only you know the answer. Actually you probably dont know the answer, but theres only one way to find out.
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Old 04-01-2018, 11:48 PM   #21278
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

the other (bigger) question is whether you have the discipline to play 2k hours a year. from what I've heard from pros directly and anecdotally, it's a tall order.
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Old 04-02-2018, 12:56 PM   #21279
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the other (bigger) question is whether you have the discipline to play 2k hours a year. from what I've heard from pros directly and anecdotally, it's a tall order.
Definitely tough from several angles. The other thing is that casinos aren't the healthiest environments even if certain sections are non-smoking, the air gets heavy and it seems like the smoke carries and gives me headaches.

Just curious on hearing from people who are living the lifestyle right now.
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Old 04-02-2018, 01:29 PM   #21280
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Definitely tough from several angles. The other thing is that casinos aren't the healthiest environments even if certain sections are non-smoking, the air gets heavy and it seems like the smoke carries and gives me headaches.

Just curious on hearing from people who are living the lifestyle right now.
i would suggest searching for posts from squid face and robfarha, they have tons of insight into the life of a pro poker player.
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Old 04-02-2018, 02:54 PM   #21281
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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i would suggest searching for posts from squid face and robfarha, they have tons of insight into the life of a pro poker player.


would have to be pre-shipaments for Rob imo
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Old 04-02-2018, 02:57 PM   #21282
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the other (bigger) question is whether you have the discipline to play 2k hours a year. from what I've heard from pros directly and anecdotally, it's a tall order.
+1 to this. 2000 hours would be near the upper limit of what a sane person could play in a year. And I would question if the quality of play would stay high enough to justify the volume.
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Old 04-02-2018, 03:15 PM   #21283
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

I’m snap taking the under on a random aspiring pro getting in 2k hours in a year.
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Old 04-02-2018, 03:45 PM   #21284
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Quote:
Originally Posted by VipassanaMan View Post
Just a general question. For those who are playing full-time and on the east coast, is 60-70k a year feasible playing 2/5 full time? Assuming you can win 6 BB/hr long term it seems doable and I've read posts alluding to this sort of yearly gain for regs. Also for myself I have a bit of a higher win-rate long term although I play part time and it's almost always 1/2, although my records do have some hours of 1/3 and 2/5 but not enough at those stakes for a good sample. (Been trying to log many many hours at 1/2 to iron out most of the kinks before I move up, roll is not an issue.)

People in other areas can also chime in, I just wanted to specify because games and skill levels vary based on geographical location. Thanks for the responses.
I think a better goal would be to try to hit 7 or 8 BB an hour and average 30 hours a week rather than trying to average 40 hours a week at 6BB an hour.

In the second situation your variance will be higher and playing 40 hours every week with that much variance will be super stressful.

I can play 160 hours a month but it wears me out physically and mentally. I think my winrate probably suffers when I'm playing that many hours. 120 hours a month is far, far easier and gives you enough time away from the table to study and actually have a life beyond poker.

Cranking out 2000 hours a year it's hard to imagine you would have much of a life unless you need much less sleep than is typical. Personally I want at least 8 hours of sleep and time to eat before heading to the casino. If you're a total machine maybe you could play that many hours but I figure for most people it's not a healthy goal.
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Old 04-02-2018, 04:03 PM   #21285
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Im not saying 2000 a year is a number most pros can hit but its less than most people who work full time put work. I work about 2500 hours per year now and I still have time to hold down a family with 3 kids and put in about 30 hours a month at poker, and I dont work or play much on weekends either. I can see online pros not being able to play 2000 hours because its much more mental draining to play 400+ hand per hour online vs 35ish live, but I couldnt imagine making live play my full time job and not playing 2000 hours.
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Old 04-02-2018, 04:13 PM   #21286
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Im not saying 2000 a year is a number most pros can hit but its less than most people who work full time put work. I work about 2500 hours per year now and I still have time to hold down a family with 3 kids and put in about 30 hours a month at poker, and I dont work or play much on weekends either. I can see online pros not being able to play 2000 hours because its much more mental draining to play 400+ hand per hour online vs 35ish live, but I couldnt imagine making live play my full time job and not playing 2000 hours.
+1

I work a full time tech job and have averaged over 900 hours per year of live poker for awhile now.

Just can't imagine having any trouble at all hitting 2,000 hours a year if I did not have a full-time job.



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Old 04-02-2018, 04:30 PM   #21287
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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+1

I work a full time tech job and have averaged over 900 hours per year of live poker for awhile now.

Just can't imagine having any trouble at all hitting 2,000 hours a year if I did not have a full-time job.



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It's not like a normal job. You have to be mentally focused the entire time. More than that if you spend 40 hours at the table you should spend another 20 to 40 hours away from the table studying.

If you're one of the few who can crank out that many hours with no impact on winrate, year after year, without burning out, then more power to you.
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Old 04-02-2018, 04:47 PM   #21288
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Most people with normal office jobs aren't "working" 2000-2500 hours per year. They are socializing, browsing facebook, dilly dallying, grabbing coffee, pretty much doing everything but working.

There's really no comparison between the two. Having done both full-time, it never ceased to amaze me how truly useless the majority of corporate employees are, how little they work, how inefficient they all are etc.

People are in for a rude awakening when automation wipes out the semi-skilled white collar work force.

Also, FWIW, the number of people in this sub that have won $50,000+ for 5 years in a row can probably be counted on 1 hand.
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Old 04-02-2018, 04:59 PM   #21289
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

I've been having a great 2018 so far playing small stakes, and I really wanted to take a min to many of the LLSNL posters who have actually improved my game with reading a lot of the hand histories in the last 6+ months. I've done a lot of lurking, but thought this might be the right thread to say thanks! I just hope the hot streak lasts, and I've really learned a lot about better hands to open, position, etc where as before 2p2 I'd throw in that last dollar in the SB with 82o just to see a flop. Now to me it's not even worth it.

So on to recent cashes...
1/3 casino, $300 buy in, left with around $1k

.50/1 home game, $50 BI, left with $480 (I'm very happy with the way I played most of these hands and could not lose!)

.25/.50 home game, $50 BI, left with $180 (I know it's not a fortune but hey 360 BBs)

Same .25/.50 game, $50 BI, left down $13 and my only losing session so far this year. This was after being up to somewhere around $250! Ugh! I am proud of the fact that even in this game I still haven't had to rebuy

1/2 casino, $300 BI ran up to $1250 in 3.5 hours

I want to thank you guys again and hope this is the right thread to post this
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Old 04-02-2018, 05:05 PM   #21290
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MikeStarr temp banned? lol
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Old 04-02-2018, 05:17 PM   #21291
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Originally Posted by johnnyBuz View Post
Most people with normal office jobs aren't "working" 2000-2500 hours per year. They are socializing, browsing facebook, dilly dallying, grabbing coffee, pretty much doing everything but working.

There's really no comparison between the two. Having done both full-time, it never ceased to amaze me how truly useless the majority of corporate employees are, how little they work, how inefficient they all are etc.
This is so true. One of my jobs they gave me a four month "project" that could've been done in a week if that. Most days I had literally no work to do. Just pretending to be busy while browsing facebook and 2+2, taking 90 minute lunch breaks and taking long washroom breaks to play Angry Birds. Job was so useless I quit to play poker even though the job paid decent.
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Old 04-02-2018, 05:22 PM   #21292
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MikeStarr temp banned? lol
would love to hear the story on that one
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Old 04-02-2018, 05:26 PM   #21293
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I’m on my third stint playing poker full time. I can only take it 3 to 4 months at a time. I’m estimating I put in an average of 200 per month at the table and another 100+ hours studying, reading, and watching videos.

I’ve made more during each those stints than most people make in a year. But it’s mentally, physically, and emotionally draining. It’s a negative environment where people aren’t providing value. Everyone’s trying to extract from everyone. There’s no real friendship.

If I had a bunch of money in the bank I wouldn’t play. I’m saving up now so hopefully I can find another way to sustain myself in the future. After this stint I’ll spend a few years traveling and focusing on health and opening up my heart.

I don’t have any ambitions of playing higher stakes anymore. It’s just too stressful and im not passionate enough about the game any more to try to be the one of the best, which I could if I put more time into the math side of things. Most players who play 5/10/20 and above are very good now. I’d rather take the guaranteed wins at 3/5 and get out once I have a decent amount in the bank.
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Old 04-02-2018, 07:55 PM   #21294
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

I had no issues playing my 40 hours a week for the 8 months or so I was playing live full time. I've since found greener pastures playing online - which is much much tougher to grind 40 hours a week on.

The other factor is whether you plan on paying tax on that annual $60k or not.
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Old 04-02-2018, 08:04 PM   #21295
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I had no issues playing my 40 hours a week for the 8 months or so I was playing live full time. I've since found greener pastures playing online - which is much much tougher to grind 40 hours a week on.

The other factor is whether you plan on paying tax on that annual $60k or not.
Interesting. I found grinding lots of hours online to be much easier than live. I'm not comparing game difficulty but playing 40 hours a week online was relatively easy. I could just spin up some tables whenever I had a few hours, do it pretty much whenever. It's not like live where due to traffic and some days being substantially better than others I'm often spending 12+ hours per session. And live the atmosphere is sometimes downright depressing.
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Old 04-02-2018, 08:21 PM   #21296
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Originally Posted by VipassanaMan View Post
Just a general question. For those who are playing full-time and on the east coast, is 60-70k a year feasible playing 2/5 full time? Assuming you can win 6 BB/hr long term it seems doable and I've read posts alluding to this sort of yearly gain for regs. Also for myself I have a bit of a higher win-rate long term although I play part time and it's almost always 1/2, although my records do have some hours of 1/3 and 2/5 but not enough at those stakes for a good sample. (Been trying to log many many hours at 1/2 to iron out most of the kinks before I move up, roll is not an issue.)

People in other areas can also chime in, I just wanted to specify because games and skill levels vary based on geographical location. Thanks for the responses.
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Interesting. I found grinding lots of hours online to be much easier than live. I'm not comparing game difficulty but playing 40 hours a week online was relatively easy. I could just spin up some tables whenever I had a few hours, do it pretty much whenever. It's not like live where due to traffic and some days being substantially better than others I'm often spending 12+ hours per session. And live the atmosphere is sometimes downright depressing.
Yeah, I guess I find grinding online more physically draining. Because in live you're folding so much, say you're only using 20% of your brain power. Online you're constantly humming at 50%+ and the spots are usually much harder. You literally burn more calories because your brain is working harder.

I also had to wait sometimes hours on waitlists to get live volume in. But for me online rn, I'll get 7 hours in and be looking at the clock to see how much longer I have to grind for.
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Old 04-02-2018, 08:56 PM   #21297
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Most people with normal office jobs aren't "working" 2000-2500 hours per year. They are socializing, browsing facebook, dilly dallying, grabbing coffee, pretty much doing everything but working.

There's really no comparison between the two. Having done both full-time, it never ceased to amaze me how truly useless the majority of corporate employees are, how little they work, how inefficient they all are etc.

People are in for a rude awakening when automation wipes out the semi-skilled white collar work force.

Also, FWIW, the number of people in this sub that have won $50,000+ for 5 years in a row can probably be counted on 1 hand.
I've had the exact same experience. I'd say that the 'time' in poker is much much more difficult than a corporate job.

I'd say that some people are better suited for the corporate world than others. While I've spent most of my life in the corporate world, I definitely don't have the personality for it, as I actually value hard work, integrity, and don't mind speaking my mind. The drones don't like that very much.
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Old 04-02-2018, 08:58 PM   #21298
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Im not saying 2000 a year is a number most pros can hit but its less than most people who work full time put work. I work about 2500 hours per year now and I still have time to hold down a family with 3 kids and put in about 30 hours a month at poker, and I dont work or play much on weekends either. I can see online pros not being able to play 2000 hours because its much more mental draining to play 400+ hand per hour online vs 35ish live, but I couldnt imagine making live play my full time job and not playing 2000 hours.
God, I can't imagine working an office job for 2500 hours a year. Last year I worked about 1500 hours at my job and 263 hours of poker, and that felt like a grind.

And I have no family. I may just be lazy
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Old 04-02-2018, 09:02 PM   #21299
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I’m on my third stint playing poker full time. I can only take it 3 to 4 months at a time. I’m estimating I put in an average of 200 per month at the table and another 100+ hours studying, reading, and watching videos.

I’ve made more during each those stints than most people make in a year. But it’s mentally, physically, and emotionally draining. It’s a negative environment where people aren’t providing value. Everyone’s trying to extract from everyone. There’s no real friendship.
Honestly, this is my biggest issue when I go through periods where I'm playing a lot. There's something about the environment where I tend to feel like I'm not making any sort of contribution to society (and I'm not), also seeing the negativity of many of the people around takes it's toll.

Some businesses have a real impact by providing value to customers, none of that happens in poker.

The mental aspect and what you describe above would really be the most difficult part for me.
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Old 04-02-2018, 09:07 PM   #21300
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Honestly, this is my biggest issue when I go through periods where I'm playing a lot. There's something about the environment where I tend to feel like I'm not making any sort of contribution to society (and I'm not), also seeing the negativity of many of the people around takes it's toll.

Some businesses have a real impact by providing value to customers, none of that happens in poker.

The mental aspect and what you describe above would really be the most difficult part for me.
Was the opposite for me. The longer I played, the more my relationships with regs, dealers, floor etc developed. It became a lot like hanging out with friends rather than a painful grind.

Also there are plenty of jobs where you don't feel like you're directly contributing to something. I think happiness while at work is much more important than what it is yours contributing to.
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