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Old 01-11-2018, 06:19 PM   #20601
johnny_on_the_spot
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Lol space heater


What is a graph that is on a 60+ degree angle?
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Old 01-11-2018, 06:41 PM   #20602
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What is a graph that is on a 60+ degree angle?
I lol'ed
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Old 01-11-2018, 09:38 PM   #20603
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Fantastic poasts by several members, Avas post is absolutely spot on and something to keep in mind for everybody.

Who keeps your games going? Who contributes greatly to your winrate?

Some people ITT seem to have a long way to go when it comes to customer service approach (how to treat fish and whales properly), underestimating them by saying to yourself they have no clue.

Matter of fact is that many of the biggest whales/punters are really smart people, both in terms of their career choice and not to forget many are very good socially. They are good with women, they have lot of friends and they often come to pokergames to have fun and gamble. They dont care if they lose money, that is not the point. They have alot of money, they know they are gonna lose: but they want to lose the money the way they want. To the players they like,the ones that treat them with respect and equal persons.

I have many similar whale stories like the one Ava posted, pure gifts because i have used time to get a good relationship with them over time. 2 weeks before i left for my recent Vegas trip i was in my usual underground game. Big whale who fuels all the games through the year was there as usual. We get into a big pot in the middle of the night, 1 hour before game breaks. I flopped middle set on him with 99 on 39J flop with a flushdraw, and check-shoved overbet for like $500 into a pot of $100. "Jeeze, you managed to flop that good on me once more?" he says to me and crack a smirky smile. "Youre soon going to your Vegas trip right Petrucci?" (He knows how much i love that city and what it means to me). "Alright, i have a crappy hand but i call and gamble anyway because its you and i like you- have a premium steak dinner on me, and have a blast in Vegas". He calls with K10, naked gutterball.

I can guarantee you, that its only me and one other reg in those games that gets those kind of gifts from time to time through the year. So now, anybody want to argue that its not +EV to be friendly with whales, treating them with respect,try to keep them happy as possible instead of pissing them off with musical chairs all night and solely be obsessed with every inch of small EV you can extract from them?
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Old 01-12-2018, 02:10 AM   #20604
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I'm not saying you shouldn't be friendly with whales and treat them with respect. Obv you should. I just don't think moving seat precludes you from doing that.
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Old 01-12-2018, 02:54 AM   #20605
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I'm not saying you shouldn't be friendly with whales and treat them with respect. Obv you should. I just don't think moving seat precludes you from doing that.
but it's transparently predatory behaviour and the smart, rich whaley guy playing 2/5 or 5/10 knows exactly what you're doing and why and it makes him feel uncomfortable.

I told this story to somebody else today - one of the very biggest and most fun whales I play with in Sydney...a guy capable of calling down 4 streets blind for more than 1k in a 2/5 game (and winning the pot - boom) told me when I saw him in Dec that he doesn't play my game any more because all the regs either patronise him or compete aggressively for his money. seat changing, table changing, telling their friends he's there etc. he owns a business with 80 staff so he's making millions a year, he doesn't need the money and he knows he's a dog in the games, but he wants friendly competition and the predatory behaviour of the regs has made it not fun any more. it made me furious, ****ing livid.

as an aside, are you still in Melb?
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Old 01-12-2018, 04:15 AM   #20606
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but it's transparently predatory behaviour and the smart, rich whaley guy playing 2/5 or 5/10 knows exactly what you're doing and why and it makes him feel uncomfortable.

I told this story to somebody else today - one of the very biggest and most fun whales I play with in Sydney...a guy capable of calling down 4 streets blind for more than 1k in a 2/5 game (and winning the pot - boom) told me when I saw him in Dec that he doesn't play my game any more because all the regs either patronise him or compete aggressively for his money. seat changing, table changing, telling their friends he's there etc. he owns a business with 80 staff so he's making millions a year, he doesn't need the money and he knows he's a dog in the games, but he wants friendly competition and the predatory behaviour of the regs has made it not fun any more. it made me furious, ****ing livid.

as an aside, are you still in Melb?
That's fair. I guess if you have a whole room full of regs berating him and whatnot then yeah I think that's bad. But I'm like probably the only reg in my room who actually seat changes for reasons other than superstition? And I do it pretty covertly. I've never seen a fish or whale react negatively or give off an impression of not being impressed by my doing that.

I'm in Brisbane still ATM, heading to Melbourne in a week for Aussie millions and to check out some places to live.
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Old 01-12-2018, 04:29 AM   #20607
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I'm down there 22-25th if you're there that week?
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Old 01-12-2018, 06:41 AM   #20608
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I'm down there 22-25th if you're there that week?
Yeah man, there from 19th. Shoot us a PM if you're keen to catch up for a beer.
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Old 01-12-2018, 09:54 AM   #20609
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I dont know where you guys play but I wish my games where anywhere near that good. There is tons of money here in S. Florida but I have never seen any whales make ridiculous calls like a few people have mentioned. Ive also never seen any of them look or act uncomfortable because someone changes seats.

What I see mostly is people changing seats because they always sit in a certain seat, because they cant see the cards unless they are in seats 5 or 6, because a certain seat gets bumped by people walking by because its too close to the wall, because their seat doesnt get any cards, because they cant see the TV ect.

I see people moving INTO a terrible seat on the wrong side of a maniac or a pro, all the time for any of those reasons and more.
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Old 01-12-2018, 10:04 AM   #20610
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I dont know where you guys play but I wish my games where anywhere near that good. There is tons of money here in S. Florida but I have never seen any whales make ridiculous calls like a few people have mentioned. Ive also never seen any of them look or act uncomfortable because someone changes seats.

What I see mostly is people changing seats because they always sit in a certain seat, because they cant see the cards unless they are in seats 5 or 6, because a certain seat gets bumped by people walking by because its too close to the wall, because their seat doesnt get any cards, because they cant see the TV ect.

I see people moving INTO a terrible seat on the wrong side of a maniac or a pro, all the time for any of those reasons and more.
+1. It is not and never will be a crime to swap seats.
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Old 01-12-2018, 10:17 AM   #20611
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+1. It is not and never will be a crime to swap seats.
Lol, youre a pure master when it comes to putting up strawmen. Nobody has never argued anywhere close to saying its a crime, breaking the rules or that its not allowed. Youre missing the important points by a landslide.

Its quite mindboggling to see it demonstrated over and over again how much lack of knowledge and experience it is amongst people who play full time for a living- when it comes to the topic of social intelligence, and how to treat whales/losing players properly.
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Old 01-12-2018, 10:17 AM   #20612
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I always get a seat change button and end up moving to seats 1 or 9. Mainly because I have more room to move around which makes it easier on my bad back. I can stand up as much as I want without disturbing anyone. I hate the middle seats and the when in an end seat I end up leaning forward to much which hurts my back. I also am able to text people or put notes on my phone without people looking over my shoulder and seeing what Im doing.

Other people have their own strange reasons for whatever seats they like. In my estimation 90%+ of all seat changing is due to nothing related to getting position on people.

Once in seat 1 or 9, I have probably only changed seats 3 times in 2 years due to positioning of other players. My comfort when Im sitting for 5 hours is a lot more important to me and how well I play than where other people are sitting. There are adjustments you can make to play differently if you are on a pro's right or left or a whale's right or left.

I bet if you took a poll in a poker room most people would say something similar. They want to be in a certain seat for any reason other than positioning on certain players. You guys over think this stuff.
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Old 01-12-2018, 10:27 AM   #20613
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Its quite mindboggling to see it demonstrated over and over again how much lack of knowledge and experience it is amongst people who play full time for a living- when it comes to the topic of social intelligence, and how to treat whales/losing players properly.
+1
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Old 01-12-2018, 10:34 AM   #20614
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I always get a seat change button and end up moving to seats 1 or 9. Mainly because I have more room to move around which makes it easier on my bad back. I can stand up as much as I want without disturbing anyone. I hate the middle seats and the when in an end seat I end up leaning forward to much which hurts my back. I also am able to text people or put notes on my phone without people looking over my shoulder and seeing what Im doing.

Other people have their own strange reasons for whatever seats they like. In my estimation 90%+ of all seat changing is due to nothing related to getting position on people.

Once in seat 1 or 9, I have probably only changed seats 3 times in 2 years due to positioning of other players. My comfort when Im sitting for 5 hours is a lot more important to me and how well I play than where other people are sitting. There are adjustments you can make to play differently if you are on a pro's right or left or a whale's right or left.

I bet if you took a poll in a poker room most people would say something similar. They want to be in a certain seat for any reason other than positioning on certain players. You guys over think this stuff.
Nope, we are talking from years of experience and actual knowledge on this topic. But i guess we are fighting windmills, because obviously you guys are not looking to listen.

When you listen to very experienced succesfull livepros from all over the world, the importance of how to interract and treat big whales is something that they keep mentioning over and over again. And its understandable, cause some people (even on 2+2 where this kind of stuff gets debated regurarly) STILL doesent get it.

This isnt about what you usually does when it comes to seat changing. Its about knowing that alot of seat changing or any predatory behaviour like Feel Wrath also mentioned (for whatever reason you have in your own head for seat changing, doesent matter) in worst case scenario can contribute to pissing off a big whale that is ready to dump money into the game, and get him to leave. I have seen it more times than i can count,and it pisses me off.

Last time it happend, was at Harrahs in Vegas. Drinking whale have been sunrunning and ran his $300 buyin up to about $2000. This is a 1/2 game. This is late at night, we are sitting 5 handed with this guy who is ready to dump it all to us. He is drinking, straddling, playing every hand dealt and whatnot. Smart hoodie grinder with zero social intelligence seat changes to the left of whale. At this point 3 of us have the drinks going with whale and he seems to forget about leaving. But when smartass headphone grinder seat changes, he asks him instantly if he moved seat to get to his left instead, and is visibly pissed off. Grinder responds by pissing whale even more off, by responsing in a rude way that he can sit in whatever seat he wants. Whale instantly fires back: "Alright then, i can do whatever i want too, i am gonna cashout my money and leave".

Nice freaking work, and a prime example of what this is all about. Can you imagine the EV we all lost in that spot? Like playing a huge whale shorthanded who plays every hand dealt with a 1000 BB stack. Clueless behaviour from average regs, that have zero idea about how to treat their customers and losing players in the game that want to have fun while losing- instead of feeling like a small bird where a full table of sniper rifles sitting ready to kill him.
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Old 01-12-2018, 10:38 AM   #20615
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You want losing players to feel comfortable and have fun. If you think you can seat switch without affecting this, go for it. Not being able to see properly or wanting to see a TV are the best excuses for this. If you’re under 30 and say that it’s your lucky seat you’re not fooling anyone. Lots of the biggest losers are intelligent and enjoy playing, irrespective of the results. They might want a talkative game and if so, give it then. If they seem to be quiet and reserved, don’t engage them in conversation.

I’d taken a break from live play until recently and it’s alarming how many supposed regs don’t get this simple concept. One rot reg berated how a fish played a hand and used the phrase ‘balancing his calling range’ in a sarcastic tone. The player in question was long gone but I saw two other big losing players at the table react negatively and both left within minutes.


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Old 01-12-2018, 10:50 AM   #20616
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Swapping seats to get position on a whale, while not being a dick about it is higher EV than not doing so, and having worse position at the table, simply because you think you'll scare them off some minute % of the time. Ainec imo. That's all I'm saying.
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Old 01-12-2018, 11:16 AM   #20617
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Ive been playing close to full time for a little over 2 years now so I have plenty of live experience also. Im not arguing that 2-3 pros switching seats constantly every time a new guy sits down is bad for the game.

Im saying I never see that happen where I play.
Im saying there are very few clueless whales dumping money where I play.
Im saying I wish my games were this good that I needed to worry about this stuff.
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Old 01-12-2018, 11:53 AM   #20618
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Swapping seats to get position on a whale, while not being a dick about it
Swapping seats to get position on a whale itself IS a dick move, why can't you understand that? You are being incredibly short sighted if you think this is a +EV move.
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Old 01-12-2018, 12:03 PM   #20619
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Being in ANY seat with a whale at the table is +EV if you know what you're doing. If you are in seat 1, the whale is in seat 3 and some pro in seat 4 is constantly abusing the whale with ISO raises, there are ways to take advantage of that yourself from seat 1.

If you move to seat 5 to get position and then the pro leap frogs you to seat 6 to get position, then there's going to be a problem and the whale or other players might get uncomfortable

One seat change now and then by anyone is normal and happens at every table everywhere.

Now can we get back to winrates, bankroll and finances before we all get jacked up by the mods?
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Old 01-12-2018, 12:20 PM   #20620
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I'm more straddling the fence on this one.

Obviously be very respectful of whales and fish (and all players, for that matter).

But table hopping / seat changing is a totally accepted part of the game in a casino environment (our room is one constant musical table/chairs game, but as others have mentioned a lot of people ain't doing it for strategy purposes although clearly some are). Just don't be a douche about doing it and do it with as much tact / good nature as you can, while also keeping the current vibe plus long term in mind.

Gyoucanactuallyhaveyourcakeandeatittoo,ifyoudoitri ght,imoG
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Old 01-12-2018, 12:32 PM   #20621
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I'm more straddling the fence on this one.

Obviously be very respectful of whales and fish (and all players, for that matter).

But table hopping / seat changing is a totally accepted part of the game in a casino environment (our room is one constant musical table/chairs game, but as others have mentioned a lot of people ain't doing it for strategy purposes although clearly some are). Just don't be a douche about doing it and do it with as much tact / good nature as you can, while also keeping the current vibe plus long term in mind.

Gyoucanactuallyhaveyourcakeandeatittoo,ifyoudoitri ght,imoG
Obv this. +1
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Old 01-12-2018, 12:50 PM   #20622
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I'm more straddling the fence on this one.

Obviously be very respectful of whales and fish (and all players, for that matter).

But table hopping / seat changing is a totally accepted part of the game in a casino environment (our room is one constant musical table/chairs game, but as others have mentioned a lot of people ain't doing it for strategy purposes although clearly some are). Just don't be a douche about doing it and do it with as much tact / good nature as you can, while also keeping the current vibe plus long term in mind.

Gyoucanactuallyhaveyourcakeandeatittoo,ifyoudoitri ght,imoG
My good table change story:

Older whale is about to sit down in one of 2 open seats. 3 regs immediately ask for the other open seat, which is 2 to his left. Floor makes them draw for the seat. One reg wins and moves to the new seat. Whale says "eff all of you I'm taking the seat he just had." He ends up with position on all of them. He proceeds to go on a massive heater and just destroys all 3 of them for at least a couple buy-ins each over the next 2-2.5 hours. He then racks up and he chews them out for being dicks trying to have position on them every time he sits down.

I lost half a buy-in that night, but it was awesome to watch.

back to your regular WR thread...
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Old 01-12-2018, 01:11 PM   #20623
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Yup, this derail has run it's course. Knock it off now.

Last edited by Garick; 01-13-2018 at 11:19 AM. Reason: Autocorrect
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Old 01-12-2018, 01:12 PM   #20624
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Great story.
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Old 01-12-2018, 01:44 PM   #20625
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*cool story

Spoiler:
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