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Old 01-11-2018, 01:44 PM   #20576
Angrist
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

It helps to have a decent justification for jumping seats around whales. Either the superstitious "this seat's been unlucky" to the good old "I can't see the game on TV from here". Although sometimes I'll needle a reg that I'm explicitly getting position on him.

Home games are an interesting dynamic. You can sometimes pull the same moves as a casino. But in my experience players tend to sit for longer session and there's less turnover, so it's harder to move. But then you can get spots where the big whale that gets special treatment to get him into the game just *LOVES* a particular seat, say seat 8, and everyone else tries to get there early and lock up either seat 7 or seat 9 depending on how they want to play him.


2018 off to a marginal start. 6 sessions, 3 wins, 3 losses, down $750 over about 40 hours. All home game $1/2 PLO. Maybe 4 rounds of NLHE if we started with RxR. Meh.
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Old 01-11-2018, 01:48 PM   #20577
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Angrist, go hit that bbj sucka! (Just bring an oxygen tank with you)
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Old 01-11-2018, 01:56 PM   #20578
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

I have such a low tolerance for sitting in that smokey ****hole surrounded by shortstacking grinders that have been chasing a BBJ for a year+. Let alone waiting an hour for a seat in the evening after a 45 min drive. It might be +$EV to play there, but it's got to be -lifeEV.
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Old 01-11-2018, 02:14 PM   #20579
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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EV of position on whales is higher than ev vs regs imo.
You're likely right. It's not about EV (or at least immediate EV). It's about the fact that whales aren't stupid, they know why you're seat-changing to get on their left, and they may rightfully decide to get up, decide to stop spewing, or at least choose to stop spewing to you if you seat change. I don't care if I offend some good, deep-stacked reg, but I don't want to offend a whale.
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Old 01-11-2018, 02:26 PM   #20580
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Angrist, yep. I played in a "smoke free" room (lol that they call them this when its basically on fire) all last year and really regret it. Will never set foot in there again. Hoping I didnt do any longterm damage. Some of the best games I've ever played, and no regs, but no win rate is worth that.
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Old 01-11-2018, 02:31 PM   #20581
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Quote:
Originally Posted by Angrist View Post
I have such a low tolerance for sitting in that smokey ****hole surrounded by shortstacking grinders that have been chasing a BBJ for a year+. Let alone waiting an hour for a seat in the evening after a 45 min drive. It might be +$EV to play there, but it's got to be -lifeEV.
Lol 45min, I'm tempted to make the 11hr drive
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Old 01-11-2018, 02:32 PM   #20582
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Lol 45min, I'm tempted to make the 11hr drive
Pm me before you go!

(Lol at me literally JUST posting I wouldnt play in smoke again)
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Old 01-11-2018, 02:34 PM   #20583
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Originally Posted by MIB211 View Post
You're likely right. It's not about EV (or at least immediate EV). It's about the fact that whales aren't stupid, they know why you're seat-changing to get on their left, and they may rightfully decide to get up, decide to stop spewing, or at least choose to stop spewing to you if you seat change. I don't care if I offend some good, deep-stacked reg, but I don't want to offend a whale.
Whales are literally clueless as to what you're doing the vast majority of the time. Helps to throw in the old "this seats been cold for ages" if you suspect they might catch on.
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Old 01-11-2018, 02:40 PM   #20584
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No, they aren't clueless. You are killing the longevity of your games. You are but one paper cut in a sea of knives that are bleeding the hog dry, but you should still shouldn't be a part of it.

Won't get through now but perhaps will help you that much sooner than otherwise.
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Old 01-11-2018, 02:45 PM   #20585
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Yeah, agree that they aren't clueless. What, everyone is flocking to their table just because everyone likes them and their company so much? They aren't complete idiots.

But at the same time, it's simply part of the casino environment (at least mine) where table changing / seat hopping is simply part of things and everyone (including the whale) understands that (and they are free to take advantage of it too).

Gcluelesstablechanging/seathoppingnoobG
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Old 01-11-2018, 03:06 PM   #20586
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Lol, forgive me for trying to increase my winning potential
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Old 01-11-2018, 03:18 PM   #20587
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Whales are literally clueless as to what you're doing the vast majority of the time. Helps to throw in the old "this seats been cold for ages" if you suspect they might catch on.
I don't agree with this at all. Whales are not clueless. Most whales are smart people (they can afford to lose a lot so often have good, real jobs, businesses, etc.) who don't care about losing at poker, or have more fun playing and losing than the utility of the money to them. You don't want to do anything to change that calculus.
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Old 01-11-2018, 03:21 PM   #20588
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OMG it's literally just moving seat. It's not as though you're spitting in their face. If a whale is butthurt enough to ragequit a game because a reg moved to their left, I couldn't care less tbh
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Old 01-11-2018, 03:24 PM   #20589
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

you care enough to change seats to "increase your winning potential" but couldn't care less if a whale quits a game?

they aren't clueless at all. imo there are some okay ways to seat/table change and some awful ways to seat/table change, but keeping it to a minimum is best for the game as a whole. some regs get it and some regs don't.
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Old 01-11-2018, 03:46 PM   #20590
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

I don't think many people understand where money comes from in live poker.

It doesn't come from people making exploitable mistakes in a solvable game. I mean sure it ends there.

But it begins from people wanting to spend recreational time in a casino and win/lose that is their idea of fun.

Sure, brush up on hand ranges. Study sizing strategies. Mock up some multiway spots. Get good at bet/folding.

Other than that, get very good at social game and tilt control. These are the two biggest areas that separate average winning regs from super donkey crushers.

I've told this story a million times but its one of my favorites.

I once 4bet jammed my favorite whale for 100bbs at 5/10. He asked if I had aces or kings. I laughed and said neither. He started pushing out the call. I put my hand out and stopped him and said "woah woah woah ok I dont want to lie, I have aces." He said really? I tabled them. He said, "that's why I like you kid, you play for fun" and slid out the call. He had KJo.

This guy gave me one thousand dollars. Do you understand? No exploitative sizing mistake. No overbluffing a capped range. No betting a 100% range check texture. None of that bs that has absolutely toxified these forums.

This dude literally slid me $1000.

That is live poker. If you are great at social game you will make far more than most people that can beat $500NL zone on stars. Not because you are better than them at poker. But because you are better at social game and get into better games with bigger whales that play longer.

In the "best player" thread on nvg I posted Jean-Robert Bellande. A few people lol'd at my wit. Only I was 100% serious.
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Old 01-11-2018, 03:59 PM   #20591
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

he slid you $850 imo
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Old 01-11-2018, 04:01 PM   #20592
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not Dan Bilzerian?
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Old 01-11-2018, 04:08 PM   #20593
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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OMG it's literally just moving seat. It's not as though you're spitting in their face. If a whale is butthurt enough to ragequit a game because a reg moved to their left, I couldn't care less tbh
It's about sustainability. If you want whales at your games, actively work to improve their experience. Customer service is a big part of live poker. I know one grinder who has whales inviting him to private games despite the fact he's from Brazil and barely speaks English. He never changes seats, congratulates others when they get lucky on him, and most controversially sometimes gives action when he shouldn't. Barring that last part, he increased his hourly by providing donators with a fun experience.

You should care if a whale rage quits on you. If they're worthy of being likened to a giant marine mammal, getting their $ shouldn't be problem OOP. You'd likely make more from them over time if you focus on the war, not the battle. I'm not advocating tabling aces because you'll get a guy to stack off anyways once every 2,500 hours, but do consider the enjoyment of those paying your bills.
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Old 01-11-2018, 04:10 PM   #20594
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@Ava fantastic post

Edit: @quantum also great post
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Old 01-11-2018, 04:10 PM   #20595
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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he slid you $850 imo
More like $867, but yeah. I concur.
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Old 01-11-2018, 04:23 PM   #20596
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Heh, he actually slid me nothing. K flop, K turn, gg me.

To be clear, this is not some strat where you get on your knees and bend over for every rec player there is. My move was -EV at best and a temp ban from alot of casinos at worst.

Our speech play happened so quick, I could tell he thought I was being 100% honest when I said "neither"...and I just didn't want it to go down that way.

He was one of my favorite players to play with. Aggressive, friendly, and zero concern for money.
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Old 01-11-2018, 05:10 PM   #20597
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

I will always change seat to the left of whoever I think the best player is and say it out loud. Couldn't care less about position with whales (mostly because I haven't really seen any whales that fit the descriptions given above at my room, certainly not with "zero concern for money")

Flattery is your second best weapon (the first is having aces) at the poker table, whether it's congratulating their luck or their skill. I'll go as far as getting people water or buying them a comp meal if they cant find their card.

Just like other things in life, if you're not enjoying yourself and keeping a happy demeanor, people will pick up on it and try to avoid you, perhaps even subconsciously.

I'll leave it to the forum vets to determine how much it adds to the actual bb/hr winrate.
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Old 01-11-2018, 05:15 PM   #20598
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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I'll leave you with some reading material from a guy with 17,000 - 20,000 hours that you can choose to disregard as blasphemy if you'd like.
Damn. I had to hop over and binge that thread for a while...DGAF has so much solid advice.

I've never played full-time, and never would (I have a fantastic career that I love and pays very well), but I did play part-time pretty seriously almost 5 years ago, mostly to fund mad-money or vacations. While I never saw the abyss quite as clearly as DGAF describes, I've definitely played enough to glimpse it from the edge, and it is truly an ugly beast. I realized it's not anything I could handle on a long-term basis where the money was actually needed for bills or whatever else.

But his sharing of Dan Colman's insights into the society as a whole I found to be exactly what drove me to being averse to playing professionally. While I still love the game, I noticed significant changes in my thought process. I would view people in life the same way I viewed them at the poker table...it was all about maximizing an edge or exploiting a mistake. And it eventually wore on me knowing I was sitting with slush money while the guy across the felt had his rent on the table. That emotional grind led me to completely leave the game for over 2 years, until I was able to reconcile my love for the game with an approach that didn't have negative affects on my mental health.
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Old 01-11-2018, 05:22 PM   #20599
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

In out home game we save a specific seat for a whale, even when there's a waiting list (someone gets a play-over though). We bought him a space heater because he's always cold. We get the food and booze that he likes. I'm sure if it was requested the host would get a hooker to come to the game for him.

It doesn't really matter where at the table you're sitting when he's potting it blind every few hands and sometimes shoveling $1k into the game in an orbit.
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Old 01-11-2018, 05:25 PM   #20600
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Lol space heater
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