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Old 07-19-2012, 07:53 PM   #1976
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How closely do you guys keep track of tips in poker journal/poker income?

I was trying to, but sometime during the session I usually forget and have to estimate. So I just treat tips as extra rake now.
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Old 07-19-2012, 09:06 PM   #1977
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

does anyone here use a free bankroll tracker for android? I couldn't find poker journal.
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Old 07-19-2012, 09:11 PM   #1978
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does anyone here use a free bankroll tracker for android? I couldn't find poker journal.
poker income I think works
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Old 07-19-2012, 10:03 PM   #1979
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Why do I buy in short at 2/5 rather than play 1/2? That answer is simple: because I can't make as much at 1/2. I made over $100/hr for an entire month at 2/5 playing short stack (60bbs) and overall have made a much higher rate than I could ever hope to make at 1/2. My hope when I first started playing 2/5 was $25/hr and my hourly is much higher than that.
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Old 07-19-2012, 10:18 PM   #1980
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Why do I buy in short at 2/5 rather than play 1/2? That answer is simple: because I can't make as much at 1/2. I made over $100/hr for an entire month at 2/5 playing short stack (60bbs) and overall have made a much higher rate than I could ever hope to make at 1/2. My hope when I first started playing 2/5 was $25/hr and my hourly is much higher than that.
I may start buying short at 2/5. 2 $300 buyin ratholling simply because, I'm patient, good at it, and the hourly rate is what I am looking for, not bb/100.
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Old 07-19-2012, 10:27 PM   #1981
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

I actually think that if you buy in for $300 in 2/5, it doesn't reduce variance in any way vs buying in for 100BB. When you're 60BB deep and you have top pair with a good kicker or a decent draw, you're pretty much committed. If you short stack correctly, stacks should be going in far more often. If you're deeper, you can flat and evaluate later.

And your hourly rate won't be that great because you should be playing tighter when you're more shallow. The only time buying in for $300 could be great is when the standard raise size is way oversized (at least $35), there are multiple callers, and you can find lots of spots spots to shove as a squeeze.

And no, $100/hr buying in for $300 in 2/5 is definitely not sustainable
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Old 07-19-2012, 10:50 PM   #1982
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I actually think that if you buy in for $300 in 2/5, it doesn't reduce variance in any way vs buying in for 100BB. When you're 60BB deep and you have top pair with a good kicker or a decent draw, you're pretty much committed. If you short stack correctly, stacks should be going in far more often. If you're deeper, you can flat and evaluate later.

And your hourly rate won't be that great because you should be playing tighter when you're more shallow. The only time buying in for $300 could be great is when the standard raise size is way oversized (at least $35), there are multiple callers, and you can find lots of spots spots to shove as a squeeze.

And no, $100/hr buying in for $300 in 2/5 is definitely not sustainable
I'm running well at 1/2 this year (32$ an hour), I expect that to decline. If I move to 2/5 I think I'd be able to sustain that. Not saying I am going to play 2/5 right now, just in the back of my mind if game conditions fit (your example above where I can squeeze)
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Old 07-19-2012, 11:58 PM   #1983
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Dude pay, you could definitely play 2/5. Do you play pro? Because 2/5 is in some ways easier than 1/2, and you can make just exponentially more money..

You definitely have the skillset to crush 2/5, why not move up?
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Old 07-20-2012, 02:32 AM   #1984
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Several reasons. Loaned a lot of $ to "friends" & haven't seen much of it back. A good portion of the $ goes to daily expenses. Flights around the country to & from LV or to see family. School. Girlfriend.

I haven't been working so it's not like I'm saving away the entirety of my winnings..in fact I probably have to spend about 4/5 of my winnings on just life expenses. So it's really hard for me to put away money to grow the roll.
That's kinda why it's so important to have a side job (or at least a lot of $$ saved up) if you want to build up your roll.

I know friends are important and you need to visit family, but it's really hard to build up a bankroll and be semi-pro or pro even if you're 100% dedicated. If you're leaning your BR to friends etc it's almost impossible.

Even if you can get a part-time job, you'll have SOME steady income that can hopefully cover some of your expenses. Of course you won't have as much time as before, but if you're really dedicating yourself to poker it's something you'll just have to deal with. Really focus on lowering expenses and building your BR where possible and move up ASAP when you think you are ready and your roll allows.

Of course you don't have to do that. You can play for fun and grind for some extra income. Earning a living from poker is EXTREMELY hard, AND probably most people who tell you they do actually don't and are BSing you.
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Old 07-20-2012, 02:37 AM   #1985
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poker income I think works
I created my own custom spreadsheet in Excel, but I think those BR calcs are pretty cool. As long as you can track stuff properly it's cool.

I have excels for everything. I even created an Excel where I can input every hand I played (sometimes I'll record all my hands in shorthand on my phone for like a half hour) and I can calculate VPIP, PFR, 3b% etc. If you're good at Excel, you should experiment.

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I actually think that if you buy in for $300 in 2/5, it doesn't reduce variance in any way vs buying in for 100BB. When you're 60BB deep and you have top pair with a good kicker or a decent draw, you're pretty much committed. If you short stack correctly, stacks should be going in far more often. If you're deeper, you can flat and evaluate later.
I wouldn't necessarily do it to reduce variance. I think it's more of an issue of getting used to the game and not making large mistakes that cost you a ton of $$ at a time.

If the stakes are a little intimidating, there's nothing wrong with buying in a little short and forcing yourself to play tighter, because that's probably what you should be doing anyway.

Sure, short stacks can add variance. But you should be playing tighter in general so you shouldn't really be drawing a ton and/or getting it in in a lot of crazy flip situations.
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Old 07-20-2012, 04:14 AM   #1986
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

What is the most money you have won/loss in a month at 2/5?


What's the most you have won in a month at 1/2?


What is a good winrate for 1/3NL? For 1/2, $20 is very good but most don't have it. I think $10-$15 is still decent i read. So for 1/3NL... i assume its around $20 and the maximum winrate is $30/hr? I heard it was the 10bb rule?
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Old 07-20-2012, 07:18 AM   #1987
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That's kinda why it's so important to have a side job (or at least a lot of $$ saved up) if you want to build up your roll.

I know friends are important and you need to visit family, but it's really hard to build up a bankroll and be semi-pro or pro even if you're 100% dedicated. If you're leaning your BR to friends etc it's almost impossible.

Even if you can get a part-time job, you'll have SOME steady income that can hopefully cover some of your expenses. Of course you won't have as much time as before, but if you're really dedicating yourself to poker it's something you'll just have to deal with. Really focus on lowering expenses and building your BR where possible and move up ASAP when you think you are ready and your roll allows.

Of course you don't have to do that. You can play for fun and grind for some extra income. Earning a living from poker is EXTREMELY hard, AND probably most people who tell you they do actually don't and are BSing you.
I play at LEAST 5x/week for my income. If I had a regular job I'd actually have less income because it would take away from my energy which would take away from poker. I've played for a living the last 4 years of my life & that graph a few pages ago only represents the last 6.5 months. I already know I have the skill set for 2/5 because I've been there before...the only reason I have had to move back down is because of several reasons away from the felt. I didn't lose at 2/5 or anything like that it's just me being a bankroll nit, b/c I'm not living at home with mom & dad. The vast, vast majority of my last 8 years I've been living in Hawaii....so you can imagine how cost of living can get for an (out of state rate) college student in the most expensive state in the country. I've been in LV the last 2 months though (and still) with good success & I plan on moving here to LV about 1 month to continue it.

One more side note...the rake in Hawaii is 5% uncap and still I was able to beat the game for tons. Several of my hawaii poker friends have also had similar or better success stories and now live in LV or still in Hawaii.
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Old 07-20-2012, 10:01 AM   #1988
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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What is the most money you have won/loss in a month at 2/5?


What's the most you have won in a month at 1/2?


What is a good winrate for 1/3NL? For 1/2, $20 is very good but most don't have it. I think $10-$15 is still decent i read. So for 1/3NL... i assume its around $20 and the maximum winrate is $30/hr? I heard it was the 10bb rule?
2/5 nlh
I just booked a 15k june. I have had many +10k months. The 10bb rule is silly. My sample sizes are large...last yr my w/r was 54/hr which is obv slightly under 11bb/hr. This yr after logging 1k hrs its 61. It will drop a bit - it has been inflated due to the series but at the same time I have made a few changes to my game.

Before all the haters and bs blah blah blah I have been doing this for a very long time sooo

I play full time at the venetian - my name is walt - I have long hair and wear a black hat and play day shift. Stop by and say hi
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Old 07-20-2012, 11:32 AM   #1989
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2/5 nlh
I just booked a 15k june. I have had many +10k months. The 10bb rule is silly. My sample sizes are large...last yr my w/r was 54/hr which is obv slightly under 11bb/hr. This yr after logging 1k hrs its 61. It will drop a bit - it has been inflated due to the series but at the same time I have made a few changes to my game.

Before all the haters and bs blah blah blah I have been doing this for a very long time sooo

I play full time at the venetian - my name is walt - I have long hair and wear a black hat and play day shift. Stop by and say hi
LOL, what you failed to realize is that you are playing in one of the most popular poker locations in the world, if not the most popular. Most people in this thread are probably playing in locations that have less than 5 tables of their preferred stake during the busiest weekend hours, and 10bb cap is close to the ceiling for such game environment.
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Old 07-20-2012, 01:48 PM   #1990
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I've played for a living the last 4 years of my life & that graph a few pages ago only represents the last 6.5 months. I already know I have the skill set for 2/5 because I've been there before...the only reason I have had to move back down is because of several reasons away from the felt. I didn't lose at 2/5 or anything like that it's just me being a bankroll nit, b/c I'm not living at home with mom & dad. The vast, vast majority of my last 8 years I've been living in Hawaii....so you can imagine how cost of living can get for an (out of state rate) college student in the most expensive state in the country. I've been in LV the last 2 months though (and still) with good success & I plan on moving here to LV about 1 month to continue it.

One more side note...the rake in Hawaii is 5% uncap and still I was able to beat the game for tons. Several of my hawaii poker friends have also had similar or better success stories and now live in LV or still in Hawaii.
Ok, so if you've been pro for 4 years and you kill the games and you have a bankroll why are you posting on here asking people whether you should move up. If you just want to get the answer you want to hear then don't bother asking, because people may not simply say what you want them to say.

As I was trying to say, playing Live poker professionally isn't easy. Online poker was easy - you could just play from your apartment in your boxers and do w/e.

If your bankroll is getting killed b/c you're taking frequent trips from Hawaii to LV and to visit your family in the lower 48 TO THE EXTENT THAT YOU CAN'T MOVE UP IN STAKES LIKE YOU WANT, then yes, you have other priorities that are interfering with poker.

If you're lending money to your friends TO THE EXTENT THAT YOU CAN'T MOVE UP IN STAKES, the yes, you have other priorities that are interfering with poker.

If those things are more important - fine. That's why it's so hard for most people to move up. It takes a ton of discipline and sometimes you have to sacrifice other things to build a bankroll etc. But if you're telling us "I'm going to keep lending money and taking expensive flights and I don't want to get a side job - why can't I build a bankroll!?" you're not going to get the answer you want.

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I play at LEAST 5x/week for my income. If I had a regular job I'd actually have less income because it would take away from my energy which would take away from poker.
Your side job doesn't require a bankroll and there's no variance. You won't have breakeven months at your side job where you can't pay your bills. If you're lucky, you can get some kind of benefits like insurance or some other things that are important (I know, difficult but maybe possible).
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Old 07-20-2012, 03:25 PM   #1991
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Never asked anyone when I should move up.
Never asked why my bankroll is lower than it should be.

Reading comprehension bud. I posted results, people asked some questions. I answered. I never asked advice for any of my money decisions.
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Old 07-20-2012, 05:29 PM   #1992
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I actually think that if you buy in for $300 in 2/5, it doesn't reduce variance in any way vs buying in for 100BB. When you're 60BB deep and you have top pair with a good kicker or a decent draw, you're pretty much committed. If you short stack correctly, stacks should be going in far more often. If you're deeper, you can flat and evaluate later.

And your hourly rate won't be that great because you should be playing tighter when you're more shallow. The only time buying in for $300 could be great is when the standard raise size is way oversized (at least $35), there are multiple callers, and you can find lots of spots spots to shove as a squeeze.

And no, $100/hr buying in for $300 in 2/5 is definitely not sustainable
I reduce my variance by simply never being deep. It's very rare that I'm ever 200bbs deep, and yet I still maintain a high hourly. Sure, you aren't going to maintain $100/hr, but I have maintained a good hourly since i started playing full time in November.

For me, there are some good things about playing short:

1) Good players are less likely to come to my table (now that I've been playing full time for months, they are less likely anyways, but for new players this is a very good thing).

2) Good players are less likely to play pots with me (no implied odds, no room to make plays)

3) Players will call you lighter. Against a short stack, one should play tighter, but I see the opposite is true. For instance, if you shove for $150, a donkey will say "Well, it's only $150" and will call with dominated hands (because they don't have to fear being bet off a hand).

4) The $1500 I bring to the casino is now 5 buyins instead of 3....so if I play horribly for 2 buyins, I can still recover

5) I can always increase my buyin. So, if I lose two $300 buyins, I'm down $600. Now I can buyin for $500 and am essentially just down 1 buy in. (this is higher variance, and not recommended if you aren't playing your A game. I started doing this recently when I'm at a table where I have a huge edge).
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Old 07-20-2012, 05:40 PM   #1993
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Uncapped game and maybe little bit of fuzzy record keeping.

I don't get the whole recording $1000 BI as baseline after the fact.

Why not just start session and end session with exactly what you buy in, re-buy, and cash out?
My thoughts exactly. It takes two seconds to fire up Poker Journal at the start of your session, and add-ons and rebuys also take just a few seconds. 15bb or 17bb/hr over 900 hours is highly unlikely.
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Old 07-20-2012, 05:55 PM   #1994
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Wheeeee just hit 1k hrs for the year at 2/5 w/r this year 61/hr. I had an amazing series - logged a ton of hours and absolutely crushed it which obviously had a nice impact on my rate. My w/r last yr was 54/hr.
squid, you and I seem to fare pretty equally at this 2/5 grind (I'm at 53/hr over my last 2500 hrs). I wish I could log the hours as fast as you, but my toddler son takes up a lot of my time. anyway, I've often wondered if there were any 2/5 players who've pulled in over $100k in a year, and while I think it's very rare, I'm certain it can be done. perhaps you've done it before, but if not, it looks like you're on your way. keep up the good work.

btw, what was your win rate during the series? I'm trying to convince the wifey that going to LV next June is worth the trip.
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Old 07-21-2012, 12:08 AM   #1995
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Midnight: The games during the wsop are truly sick. Every wannabe, wizard, and mover (i'm gunna win every pot) is in town. If your sole source of income is poker or even significant portion of it - which I believe is the case for you it is imperitave that you spend those six weeks in LV. You can get a decent place and bring the whole family out and just poker it up for those six wks.

I have had lengthy discussions with friends who have very high w/r and we all believe that the ev during the series for highly skilled players at 2/5 who are capable of adjusting etc. is significantly higher than the rest of the year.
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Old 07-21-2012, 08:48 PM   #1996
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Bankroll, quick question

Been playing 2/5 with a 6600$ bankroll. I got to 11,600K, then after a huge downswing, I'm at 5,000.... Do I go back to 1/2 or give it one or two more buy-ins before I go to 1/2?
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Old 07-21-2012, 08:50 PM   #1997
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Re: Bankroll, quick question

I'd stay at 2/5. If you move down, I imagine you'll so much focus because it will just feel like so much less money and you're not going to care as much.
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Old 07-21-2012, 08:50 PM   #1998
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Re: Bankroll, quick question

I would take a break and play at 1/2 for a while before returning back to 2/5.
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Old 07-21-2012, 08:53 PM   #1999
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Re: Bankroll, quick question

It depends on if you have a job or not. 5k is only 10buyins. That's just the swings of poker. You started 2/5 underolled so you should be ok. I would just drop your buyin down to $300 and play tighter since you are on a down swing.

That means raising 90% of your hands. Only calling to setmine or flush mine in absolute position. This style will get you back on track.

Work on your leaks as well. What ever you think the problem is analyze it.
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Old 07-21-2012, 09:42 PM   #2000
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Re: Bankroll, quick question

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It depends on if you have a job or not. 5k is only 10buyins. That's just the swings of poker. You started 2/5 underolled so you should be ok. I would just drop your buyin down to $300 and play tighter since you are on a down swing.

That means raising 90% of your hands. Only calling to setmine or flush mine in absolute position. This style will get you back on track.

Work on your leaks as well. What ever you think the problem is analyze it.

I have been playing this way. Tight, raising good hands in position and value betting. I just went on a rollercoaster of bad beats and being card dead or calling raises to set mine and not getting there 30 times in a row. (The most I will call pre-flop with a pair is 30, 6BB's to setmine, is that too much? Only if the opponent has 400+)
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