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Old 10-27-2017, 04:30 PM   #19801
niceguy22
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Originally Posted by Avaritia View Post
That applies to all stakes, if that’s what you’re asking. There is less difference between 1/2 and 10/25 than you’d think (depends on location ofc, like lol Vegas)...but yea still a ton of button clicking, except the button clickers at 10/25 think they have explanations for their button clicking.
Ive never played 10/25 but there is no way this can be true. 10/25 is generally filled with world class players
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Old 10-27-2017, 06:24 PM   #19802
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Ive never played 10/25 but there is no way this can be true. 10/25 is generally filled with world class players
IMO, just ignore his pio solver advice..
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Old 10-27-2017, 07:08 PM   #19803
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Ive never played 10/25 but there is no way this can be true. 10/25 is generally filled with world class players
I've played a lot of 10/25 and while there are definitely some not-so-world-class players in some lineups, I'd definitely love to xbook a very winning 1/2 reg in a random 10/25 game (even if we could give them a pill / endowment that will prevent them from being scared money)
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Old 10-27-2017, 08:59 PM   #19804
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The other important thing to note is that current meta-game for that particular hand is waayyy more prevalent for selecting which lines then as opposed to your exact holdings from a gto perspective
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Old 10-27-2017, 09:36 PM   #19805
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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I've played a lot of 10/25 and while there are definitely some not-so-world-class players in some lineups, I'd definitely love to xbook a very winning 1/2 reg in a random 10/25 game (even if we could give them a pill / endowment that will prevent them from being scared money)
So what you're saying is that wouldn't stake Trooper in the 25/50 game running on LATB right now?
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Old 10-27-2017, 10:03 PM   #19806
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So what you're saying is that wouldn't stake Trooper in the 25/50 game running on LATB right now?
I don't know who Trooper is and I've never watched LATB but it still probably wouldn't be the worst staking decision I've ever made :P
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Old 10-27-2017, 10:31 PM   #19807
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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I've played a lot of 10/25 and while there are definitely some not-so-world-class players in some lineups, I'd definitely love to xbook a very winning 1/2 reg in a random 10/25 game (even if we could give them a pill / endowment that will prevent them from being scared money)
This
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Old 10-28-2017, 07:04 AM   #19808
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I mean, i easily understand what Ava is trying to say with his statement about bigger stakes also consist of buttonclickers- just that bigger stakes buttonclickers have good excuses/explenations in their own head for what they are doing.

But still, its going a bit overboard trying to reduce the skill-level at bigger stakes to buttonclicking.

I have played a couple of pretty big games myself in private games/underground games,and cant say it was concerning at all-even when playing against couple of the supposed best players in the game.

What players at higher stakes is doing alot better in my opinion is finding the smaller nuances, adjusting/readjusting alot faster to spesific villain tendencies/table dynamics- and ranging people more accurately+ employing the correct exploitative strategies to attack those accurate ranges.
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Old 10-28-2017, 05:18 PM   #19809
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Ive never played 10/25 but there is no way this can be true. 10/25 is generally filled with world class players
Sooo, you’ve never played 10/25, I’m telling you I play it (albeit only once a month), and you know more? twoplustwo in a nutshell.

The only difference between my 2/5 and 10/25 games is that at 10/25 the good players are significantly nittier, so the game can be pretty bad, but this can be made up for by the whales because the biggest whales play the highest stakes.

The 10/25 is certainly not tough though, not in the sense of being put in tough spots, and it is not filled with world class players. I’m put in much “tougher” spots in a good 2/5 game. As an example: I 3b squeezed 20bbs and got called in 5 spots the other night, we are all +200bb deep, flop JT3r, donk and 2 callers. That situation isn’t going to show up in an online grinders database of 3 million hands, and it is much more complex than people realize.

The 10/25 however is nearly always heads up pots, always smaller sizing, reliable turn and river lines, etc. Just a bunch of nits that occasionally spew really hard in real bad spots. And also have REALLY BAD money management in general.

Likely just speaks to something else I’ve stated itt many times, which is to find more remote / isolated games. This isn’t a 10/25 in Vegas.
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Old 10-29-2017, 07:38 PM   #19810
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The reason higher stakes winners are tighter is because literally all the $2/5 "crushers" are way too loose but play vs people who are too awful to exploit all the times they take ****ty lines with weak ranges.
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Old 10-30-2017, 12:22 AM   #19811
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And the reason for the higher stakes winners that are looser?
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Old 10-30-2017, 10:29 AM   #19812
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Originally Posted by SABR42 View Post
The reason higher stakes winners are tighter is because literally all the $2/5 "crushers" are way too loose but play vs people who are too awful to exploit all the times they take ****ty lines with weak ranges.
If these 2/5 crushers are crushing their games, then by definition they are not way too loose. They are playing the proper way to crush their games. Unless you think they would be crushing even more if they tightened up some, but I doubt that since they need to be in as many hands as possible agsinst these people that you say are so awful.

These same 2/5 crushers are probably smart enough to tighten up as much as needed if they played a different or higher stakes game where playing looser doesnt work as well. But then all you have is a higher stakes nit fest waiting for some whale to wonder in, which is exactly what Avaritia just described.
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Old 10-30-2017, 11:19 AM   #19813
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Originally Posted by Avaritia View Post
Sooo, you’ve never played 10/25, I’m telling you I play it (albeit only once a month), and you know more? twoplustwo in a nutshell.

The only difference between my 2/5 and 10/25 games is that at 10/25 the good players are significantly nittier, so the game can be pretty bad, but this can be made up for by the whales because the biggest whales play the highest stakes.

The 10/25 is certainly not tough though, not in the sense of being put in tough spots, and it is not filled with world class players. I’m put in much “tougher” spots in a good 2/5 game. As an example: I 3b squeezed 20bbs and got called in 5 spots the other night, we are all +200bb deep, flop JT3r, donk and 2 callers. That situation isn’t going to show up in an online grinders database of 3 million hands, and it is much more complex than people realize.

The 10/25 however is nearly always heads up pots, always smaller sizing, reliable turn and river lines, etc. Just a bunch of nits that occasionally spew really hard in real bad spots. And also have REALLY BAD money management in general.

Likely just speaks to something else I’ve stated itt many times, which is to find more remote / isolated games. This isn’t a 10/25 in Vegas.
Ok sure - easy to say that theres the very occasional atypical 10/25 game like that. But any of us that have played a decent amount of poker understand how the ecosystem works. Anywhere there's big money to be made, big time players follow. People like money and try to acquire it. If there was ever a 10/25 game that you are profitable in, word will get around and studs will flock to that game asap. These things balance out.
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Old 10-30-2017, 11:52 AM   #19814
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Ha, so I had my biggest downswing at 1/3 NL at about the ~1800 hr mark, where I booked a fun little 3-7 stretch for -$2866 (955bbs).

Now 1800 hours later, I've currently done the *exact* same thing; another fun little 3-7 stretch, for exactly -$2866 (lol, to the *exact* dollar, for realz).

Gwillgofortherecordtonight!gogogo!G
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Old 10-30-2017, 12:39 PM   #19815
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It's funny to sit in the middle of the year and be like "Even if I break even for the next 150 hours, I'm still going to have a $50/hour winrate that is pretty good!", then 150 hours go by and you've been breakeven and your winrate hits $50/hour and you don't feel like playing anymore cause you can't win.
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Old 10-30-2017, 01:00 PM   #19816
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lol niceguy22, you think people are going to fly around the country and move states to play in a 10/25 NL game that runs 1-2 times a week? Sure, it happens, but to think that theres a giant pool of mid/high stakes players just waiting for the opportunity to uproot their entire life for a weekly game is silly.
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Old 10-30-2017, 01:49 PM   #19817
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lol niceguy22, you think people are going to fly around the country and move states to play in a 10/25 NL game that runs 1-2 times a week? Sure, it happens, but to think that theres a giant pool of mid/high stakes players just waiting for the opportunity to uproot their entire life for a weekly game is silly.
When did I say they would fly around the country and move states? I just said that people will generally gravitate to where the money is, which is obvious.
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Old 10-30-2017, 01:54 PM   #19818
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Originally Posted by Avaritia View Post
I 3b squeezed 20bbs and got called in 5 spots the other night, we are all +200bb deep, flop JT3r, donk and 2 callers. That situation isn’t going to show up in an online grinders database of 3 million hands, and it is much more complex than people realize.
I won't pursue it in this thread (because it isn't the thread for it), but this is more-or-less the biggest concept I'm attempting to address with my overall strategy (and I may be going about things the wrong way, I'm not 100% sure). It's also by far the most important one because (a) no other pots other than these matter and (b) these are the most common pots in my game (i.e. multiway raised).

Gthisforumisterriblylackinginthisregards,imoG
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Old 10-30-2017, 02:40 PM   #19819
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Hey All - I thought I'd put this here rather than create its own thread. I'm a casual recreational player whose played a lot during college and is trying to put more hours in part time after work/weekends etc. I'm trying to ultimately get this to be some side income, but I understand that requires putting in the hours...

I've got a few questions:
- Being a part time job, how many hours do you guys put in per week/month on the grind? I tend to only be able to find 1-2 days a week usually after work from 7pm-midnight. Weekends are more ideal for grinding, but it's tough finding hours when you have weekend plans with the wife & friends. I'm curious if most of you guys play weeknights only or only weekends, and for the # of hours.

- How many buy-ins do you guys bring with you? at 1/3NL i'm bringing about $600, but I know I should bring more like $1k each trip.

- How do you segregate funds from poker/life? Of course it's easier said than done, but I find that when I'm losing I think about what I could have used this money for etc. Obviously it was a lot easier for me when playing online back in the day. I'm properly rolled and can afford the swings at 1/3NL, it's just something mentally I need to get better at.

Thanks all for your help!
Chris
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Old 10-30-2017, 04:29 PM   #19820
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I think if you really wanted to excel you'd have to accept some time away from the wife/kids for a while. I don't have a family, but I basically sacrificed any/all social life for a good while to grind the hell out of weekends. This isn't quite the same thing but yeah.
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Old 10-30-2017, 05:10 PM   #19821
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Originally Posted by TPTK77 View Post
Hey All - I thought I'd put this here rather than create its own thread. I'm a casual recreational player whose played a lot during college and is trying to put more hours in part time after work/weekends etc. I'm trying to ultimately get this to be some side income, but I understand that requires putting in the hours...

I've got a few questions:
- Being a part time job, how many hours do you guys put in per week/month on the grind? I tend to only be able to find 1-2 days a week usually after work from 7pm-midnight. Weekends are more ideal for grinding, but it's tough finding hours when you have weekend plans with the wife & friends. I'm curious if most of you guys play weeknights only or only weekends, and for the # of hours.

- How many buy-ins do you guys bring with you? at 1/3NL i'm bringing about $600, but I know I should bring more like $1k each trip.

- How do you segregate funds from poker/life? Of course it's easier said than done, but I find that when I'm losing I think about what I could have used this money for etc. Obviously it was a lot easier for me when playing online back in the day. I'm properly rolled and can afford the swings at 1/3NL, it's just something mentally I need to get better at.

Thanks all for your help!
Chris
Hours you play is completely subjective in your situation. You have no requirement to make enough money to sustain yourself. Play the most hours you can and still have enough time to devote to the rest of your life.

I like to have at least 3 buy-ins. It's rare for me to lose 2, and I almost never lose 3. The most I've ever lost was 550 BBs in a 150BB max game, and I think I was drinking IIRC.

I think you just have to get used to the swings. I don't consciously or physically segregate my poker funds from my other money, and winning/losing at poker has little to no effect on my life in the short run.
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Old 10-30-2017, 05:16 PM   #19822
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I don't know if never losing more then 3 buy ins is that much of a brag. If you're playing THAT low of variance style then you're clearly not booking any massive wins either.
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Old 10-30-2017, 05:30 PM   #19823
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I think if you really wanted to excel you'd have to accept some time away from the wife/kids for a while. I don't have a family, but I basically sacrificed any/all social life for a good while to grind the hell out of weekends. This isn't quite the same thing but yeah.
This is -EV for life, even if +EV for poker. If you have a job and a wife and kids, one night of poker/week is probably your cap, maybe two every so often. If you have a job and a wife but no kids, two nights of poker/week is probably your cap.

Problem with more playing is usually one of two things happens:
1. The Mrs. is worried, rightly or wrongly, about the gambling/money aspects of you playing so much.
2. The Mrs. resents the lack of time spent with her.

I'm a winning player with a very good job and a wife and two kids. I play once/week, every so often twice/week, and then every night on the rare occasions my wife and kids are out of town. I've been doing this for 7 years now with no blow back. Any more my wife would rightfully be annoyed I'm spending time at poker instead of with her, especially because she wants to do stuff at night too. This is true even though I generally make money playing poker and I can afford to lose money at it anyway.
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Old 10-30-2017, 06:06 PM   #19824
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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I don't know if never losing more then 3 buy ins is that much of a brag. If you're playing THAT low of variance style then you're clearly not booking any massive wins either.
I don't come here to brag, nor do I claim that I play an optimal style. I'm just sharing information from my live results.

In 181 sessions of 1/2, these are the number of sessions falling within given parameters:

<= -800: 4
<= -600: 10
<= -400: 22
<= -200: 42
>= 200: 69
>= 400: 40
>= 600: 23
>= 800: 12

Worst session was -1100 and best was +2241

Now in 296 sessions of 2/5:

<= -2000: 2
<= -1500: 11
<= -1000: 30
<= -500: 64
>= 500: 98
>= 1000: 56
>= 1500: 22
>= 2000: 11

My worst session was -2155 and my best was +4822.

Most of the sessions where I lost >300BBs were not 100BB cap games, so it was not 3 buy-ins. I do not have a stop loss, but it's possible I choose to quit sooner if I'm losing, giving me less of a chance to have even greater losses. Also, many of my sessions are 200BB cap games, and it's harder to get stacked there. I've still have multiple -1400BB downswings.
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Old 10-30-2017, 11:14 PM   #19825
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Hey all. Im just curious but do those of you who play live even play online anymore or are most of you strictly live players?


Im an american that relocated outside the us to play online but it was mostly sngs/ small stakes mtt etc and as many of you probably know, online has gotten very tough etc. Back when i was in vegas say back in 2012, i played mostly 1/3nl in vegas and i considered most of the games soft. I played mostly at 2 casinos there etc.


I assume now, the 1/3nl games are pretty bad nowadays in vegas? My winrate was something like 24/hr at 1/3nl over i believe like over 400 hours or a bit more. But since i havent played live cash since i played mostly sng and low stakes mtt online, well im sure my skills are much difference since i use small bet sizing in my format as oppose to cash where you have 100bb etc.


I'm just curious but are there players that play 1/3nl for a living and some 2/5 only when the game looks good and actually play that for a living? I know people say the goal in poker is to move up to higher stakes but as you move up, the competition gets a lot tougher. So yes it might feel bad if a person plays only 1/3nl and stays at those stakes but if the game is very little variance, i could see how someone might just want to play those stakes.

I assume most live pros who play for a living probably are 2/5nl players? Then after that its probably 5/10nl and up? But of course the issue is the player pool at 5/10nl is so small so there can't be ton of winners. And its hard to win enough money to sustain themselves at 1/2nl if say its a 200 dollar buyin. But 1/3 with a 500 max buyin, im sure there are certain players that could average 12bb/hr? Like the really good 2/5 and 5/10nl players?


Would you guys say live cash is much profitable than online sngs/tournaments especially if you play the lower stakes etc? Because even the low stakes sngs/mtts are not that soft anymore as you guys might know. And i know in american sites like WPN, people say even 50nl is reg infested and is probably the nittiest site etc.


Im curious how many players out there play 2/5nl and do it for 5+ or more years and average say at least 40k a year. I assume there are but not that many right

Hey all like an opinion on this. I play mostly mttsng and low and some midstakes online tourney on stars as i relocated a while back.


Woudl you say playing live poker at the 1/3 or 2/5 stakes is probably softer than playing online? I play on stars outside the us and as you know games are very bad online.


The last time i played live poker was in vegas in 2012 or so for about 3 months. I had 8bb/hr winrate at 1/3nl. I recalled back in 2012, the games were decent but i mostly played 1/3nl.


Is the situation in vegas much worst in terms of poker?


Are 1/3nl games bad as well? Assuming you are a solid abc player, im wondering if the games are still tough now. I mean i heard dario minieri is grinding 1/2 and 1/3 in vegas.


Im also curious but what location would be best to play live poker at now? Is it vegas or is it on the east coast? I heard a while back poker is very soft in florida but of course games got harder. But i heard mgm national harbor is pretty good and maryland live is okay? I also read that parx is probably the worst place to play? I assume borgata is pretty horrible right? I recalled many years ago playing 1/2nl at borgata and well many of the players were regs there.


However do most of you agree live poker beats online poker? Online is so dry but the other thing is i play mttsng and low/mid stakes tournaments etc. But the issue with playing live poker is you cant really play good hours right? Im curious if anyone plays live poker full time and actually plays a daytime schedule. Like 10am-6pm or something like that. But that basically is not possible right? Thus you basically have to play on the weekends? The issue with online poker and tournaments is your basically are grinding the entire day etc. But with cash... you can leave anytime which is a benefit. But the negative about playing live poker is getting to the casino. its not like you can just walk there etc.


Curious about people opinion on this. Do most of you who play live just do not like online anymore? Of course the options in the us are pretty limited.
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