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Old 07-10-2012, 04:11 PM   #1901
iLikeCaliDonks
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

@Pokerisfrustrating so you play at revel now? What happen to borgata? Is the play much harder at borgata? Or you just like the deeper buyin? I once claimed borgata to have the best 2/5 game in the country due to number of tables and rake structure. I might have to take that comment back now.
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Old 07-10-2012, 04:32 PM   #1902
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@Pokerisfrustrating so you play at revel now? What happen to borgata? Is the play much harder at borgata? Or you just like the deeper buyin? I once claimed borgata to have the best 2/5 game in the country due to number of tables and rake structure. I might have to take that comment back now.
I got 3 nights comped at Revel (because they accidentally gave me 2 promotions in the same week lol) but I actually didn't pay there last week. I had 2 $50 food comps though so I just went back to eat and go to the July 4th party. I don't really want to play 1/2 even if it's $500 max because no one buys in $500 and no one gets $500 in the middle. They had 2 2/5 games going last week, maybe b/c of the concerts and HQ opening up, but you can't table select and if I'm trying to make real money I'd rather just play at Borgata.

My honest take on the 2/5 in AC: I think $10/hour time at Borgata is much better than $4 max rake at Revel and most other places. I don't think you can beat that $5/half hour time because I win a lot of small pots and it really adds to my WR IMO. Hugely underrated advantage that Borgata has.

Since most people at Revel play 1/2, at 2/5 you'll get a mix of a few decent/good players, maybe one huge fish if you're lucky, and a few randoms playing higher than normal. If you get the huge fish trying to get $1000 in it can be really good, or the game could be bad. Most of the Borgata 2/5 players play 1/2 at Revel for some reason, so it's really kind of a crapshoot what kind of 2/5 table you might get.

In terms of buyins, recently I'm actually open to the argument that Borgata 2/5 $500 max buyin is good compared to $1000 max because it encourages weaker players to play 2/5 and even become regs where if they lost $1000+ at a time on a regular basis they'd just give up or move down. I guess that's debatable.

So anyway if I'm trying to make money I go play 2/5 at Borgata. I've heard Borgata players are some of the tougher players out there - I dunno if that's true. There are certainly a lot of weak regulars. I really like being able to table change aggressively and get in the spots I want at Borgata. If I don't like the seat or table there's 10 more tables I can try.

Revel is a beautiful resort so I figured I'll play 1/2 or 2/5 occasionally and hopefully get room offers. If they get a few consistent 2/5 games I'll play there as my 2nd room if I'm staying there or if I want a break from Borgata, so I really want them to do well. But Borgata is definitely the place in AC for serious 2/5 players IMO. I still haven't been to Parx (which apparently is much softer) so I can't comment, and I haven't played Borgata 2/5 with the new straddle, but if I'm trying to earn serious $$, that's where I go.

I'm trying to be fair to both Casinos - that's my honest assessment. I need to get the hours in at 2/5 so it's a no-brainer. If people are playing for fun or just want to have an occasional trip I really encourage people to check them out and make their own assessment.

Last edited by PokerIsFrustrating; 07-10-2012 at 04:44 PM.
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Old 07-10-2012, 05:31 PM   #1903
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You just have to remember that when you do that you can't add all of your wins to your bankroll. You have to live off of those, so if you go on a downswing you can get in trouble and if you're looking to move up it's going to take much longer b/c you'll have to earn ABOVE your living expenses to add to your BR.

You might even want to keep working just so you build up your BR to play 2/5 full-time.

If you're good enough you want to move up to 2/5 as soon as you have the roll to do so and as soon as you're comfortable.
Agree with this 100%
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Old 07-17-2012, 09:45 PM   #1904
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What if you play only on weekends and try to play anywhere from 30-40/month. Assuming you have a full time job and if you bust, you could restart over grinding 1/2nl.

How many buyins would you recommend in order to play 2/5nl, assuming if you bust, you can replenish back to 1/2nl and grind back up for another shot. How many would you want for a shot 2/5 and when would you drop back down to 1/2nl to grind back up for another shot?
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Old 07-17-2012, 10:18 PM   #1905
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3 for that particular weekend should be sufficient, since it doesn't really matter if you go bust.

Less than 3 would not make sitting down even logical, because you could easily be playing as scared money and lose to variance.
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Old 07-18-2012, 01:07 PM   #1906
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What if you play only on weekends and try to play anywhere from 30-40/month. Assuming you have a full time job and if you bust, you could restart over grinding 1/2nl.

How many buyins would you recommend in order to play 2/5nl, assuming if you bust, you can replenish back to 1/2nl and grind back up for another shot. How many would you want for a shot 2/5 and when would you drop back down to 1/2nl to grind back up for another shot?
I think it really depends on how fast and how easy you can replenish your BR and how much 2/5 you're playing mixed in with the 1/2.

If you have a good job and you're earning enough that poker is really just a fun side-thing, you really don't need a huge "bankroll" (theoretically if you make a lot of money at your job you might not even need a bankroll) because you're just trying to play and improve.

I was fortunate enough to have enough money saved up (from other things) that I could play with a really small BR. I think I had like $5k dedicated when I started taking shots at 2/5, which is REALLY small. But if I blew that I could reload $2k or w/e for another trip. It would suck, but I wouldn't be like totally broke and couldn't pay my rent.

I wanted to get to 2/5 because I thought it was beatable and preferable, so I played tight, started playing like $300 and then gradually increased to $500 buyins. I was probably fortunate to run good at the start, but at least I had a plan. I don't necessarily recommend this. You definitely need to track your stats thoroughly and have a very good handle about how you're doing at 2/5 if you're going to start with a short BR.

You probably want to have at least 10 buyins because I've gone on -4 and -3 buyin days over the last few months. Just realize if you do that you have a decent risk of ruin and you may blow through your BR if you run bad.
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Old 07-18-2012, 01:31 PM   #1907
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@Pokerisfrustrating that sounds really good man. Start at 60bigs and work your way up. I'm going to use that for 5/10 when the time is right.
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Old 07-18-2012, 01:42 PM   #1908
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iLikeCaliDonks View Post
@Pokerisfrustrating that sounds really good man. Start at 60bigs and work your way up. I'm going to use that for 5/10 when the time is right.
ILCD... You'be gotta play so that you can make money, so that you can make money, so that you can build your roll, so that eventually you can move up. Phil over played like hours upon hours before he became huge.

But how can you play if you're ALWAYS POSTING ON 2P2...????


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Old 07-18-2012, 07:51 PM   #1909
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waited about an hour for a seat the other day and was wondering if i should record it within my hourly? does anyone also record food purchases in their hourly? thanks
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Old 07-18-2012, 08:15 PM   #1910
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Wheeeee just hit 1k hrs for the year at 2/5 w/r this year 61/hr. I had an amazing series - logged a ton of hours and absolutely crushed it which obviously had a nice impact on my rate. My w/r last yr was 54/hr.
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Old 07-18-2012, 08:35 PM   #1911
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Last 6 months:
1/2 NL
Total Hours: 383 hours
Total Profit: $6,707
Hourly: $17.51/hr

% of winning sessions (A completely meaningless statistic): 31/51 = 60.8%

Time to take a few shots at 2/5 I think.

You guys are talking about buying in for 60BBs at 2/5, what's the point? why not just play 1/2 if you're going to do that. Not sure you're gonna learn much and adjust to 2/5 unless you play at least 100BBs deep.

If I lose about 2k at 2/5 drop back down?
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Old 07-18-2012, 10:25 PM   #1912
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Annie: I dont like the idea of buying in for 60bb when taking a shot (if you are used to buying in for 100). Play your game and buy in for 100. If you can afford to lose 2k take a shot...you dont have to shoot the whole wad. If you are losing and you feel like you are getting owned bag it and move back down...if you are losing and it is not due to getting outplayed - hang in there but once you do drop 2k you should move back down

GL
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Old 07-18-2012, 10:32 PM   #1913
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I think shot-taking at 2/5 with 300-400 is perfectly fine.

I bought in shorter almost every time I took shots at bigger games. First buyins at 2/5 were 400.

Now I'm in a much better position poker-wise and know a lot more about the game so if I were to shot take at bigger games I would buy in deeper
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Old 07-18-2012, 11:08 PM   #1914
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I am thinking about when I want to move up to 2/5 as well. The problem is the $2/5 game in my casino is uncapped, which is good and bad because the hourly rates can be higher but I probably need more of a stake to take a shot at it.
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Old 07-18-2012, 11:20 PM   #1915
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What are your guys' largest live downswings? My largest downswing seems way too low (not complaining), maybe I'm just a total luckbox...
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Old 07-18-2012, 11:26 PM   #1916
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200 hour break even stretches are the norm after a few thousand hours. Usually followed by running hot for a month and getting back to where you should be hourly wise.
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Old 07-19-2012, 12:21 AM   #1917
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I think shot-taking at 2/5 with 300-400 is perfectly fine.

I bought in shorter almost every time I took shots at bigger games. First buyins at 2/5 were 400.

Now I'm in a much better position poker-wise and know a lot more about the game so if I were to shot take at bigger games I would buy in deeper
I was just going to ask about taking a shot @ 2/5 that caps @ 500 when I'm use to playing 1/2 300max. Is there much difference if you have the roll? Besides the shorter stack.

Last edited by sumoldguy; 07-19-2012 at 12:28 AM.
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Old 07-19-2012, 04:06 AM   #1918
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What are your guys' largest live downswings? My largest downswing seems way too low (not complaining), maybe I'm just a total luckbox...
My longest streak is 4 losing sessions in the row, but I am too lazy to find the dates.

So I am guessing it's probably somewhere between 10 - 16 BIs downswing.
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Old 07-19-2012, 09:03 AM   #1919
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Cash Table Results? Anyone doing this for a living or 20-40 Hours per week?

First off, I was wondering if anyone can elaborate on their results playing cash tables. I go to the local card rooms in south Florida to play mostly 2/5 nl with a buy in of $500 or so. Sometimes I may play 1/2 also and seldom 5/10. I find that in 2/5 there is a good amount of money to be made but more aggression now than in the past. I used to be able to play more hands and now just about 80% of hands are raised to $20-$25. Which means a good three betting strategy of marginal hands ( where to steal pots ), can be any broadway such as KJ, KQ, AJ, AQ, K 10, JQ, J 10, A 10, or suited connectors, etc. The issue is that when three betting with these cards, you generally have to throw out about $65-$90 or so to make this play. That is considered a good portion of your stack where as in 1/2 nl if someone bets to $6 and you three bet this way you can put in about $15-$25 preflop. My point is that in 1/2 it seems that you can play more hands and be more versatile with your playing style. In 2/5 you must wait more and look to exploit your opponents. Ofcourse any monster with KK, AA, AK, QQ, etc you can make a good amount in 2/5 preflop compared to 1/2 but my question is which game do you think is more profitable of these two? Take into consideration that you can play many more hands in 1/2 than 2/5 and how the aggression factor of live players has changed in the past 3 years.

Can someone elaborate on what the strategy should be for each of these? How much can you actually expect to make if trying to play for a living or supplemental income? Is there an advantage in one over the other or which do you believe is more profitable and why? Can you also share your $$$ stats with hours, rate per hour, etc. I am a player that likes to play a good amount of hands and I find that playing with 2/5 I am playing much less hands to raises than I would in 1/2. I know that some say 1/2 is very difficult to make a profit because it is too slow or low value but can you all share your thoughts on this? Thanks....

Last edited by mburns22; 07-19-2012 at 09:24 AM. Reason: not sure if it posted
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Old 07-19-2012, 09:58 AM   #1920
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[x] bets and raises are bigger dollar amounts in higher stakes games.
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Old 07-19-2012, 11:17 AM   #1921
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What are your guys' largest live downswings? My largest downswing seems way too low (not complaining), maybe I'm just a total luckbox...
I started this year off with a 4 session losing streak which ties my record. I've since bounced back nicely since with only a few losing sessions, unfortunately 2 of those losing sessions are in my top 3 worst losing sessions. Still up for the year but winrate wise I'm about 1/3.5 of what I did last year.

I'd have to look at my records for largest downswing. I once booked a 4 BI loss (400 BBs) and a little while later I think recorded a 2 BI loss (200 BBs), so I'm guessing it was around that time, or maybe during my 4 session losing streak. I'm guessing no much more than 6 BIs over a rather short period, but I'd have to confirm.

Course all of that is keeping in mind I've only just encroached ~700 hours and booked only about ~110 sessions at 1/3 NL live. So, ya, drop in the bucket.

GcluelessNLnoobrunningwellG
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Old 07-19-2012, 11:35 AM   #1922
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My longest streak is 4 losing sessions in the row, but I am too lazy to find the dates.

So I am guessing it's probably somewhere between 10 - 16 BIs downswing.
10-16BIs?! That's not a downswing man, you should really be re-evaluating your game.

Assuming that 20 BIs are a "base" bankroll, if you have lost 50-75% of it in a given stretch, then it means you have serious leaks...
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Old 07-19-2012, 11:58 AM   #1923
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I am thinking about when I want to move up to 2/5 as well. The problem is the $2/5 game in my casino is uncapped, which is good and bad because the hourly rates can be higher but I probably need more of a stake to take a shot at it.
Not necessarily. If you buy in 100bb you're still 100bb. I'm assuming if you're taking shots you're not going to buyin 300bb, which is totally understandable.

Where you run into problems is that when you double up or triple up people have you covered. That's going to increase your variance a lot, but you're not always going to be 300bb deep even when you have longer sessions.

You could make a case for still taking shots with 70bb or 100bb or whatever and if you get deep vs GOOD players and you feel uncomfortable, cutting your sessions short if necessary.

I know you don't want to "hit and run" or cut your sessions short when you're winning, but I think you can take that kind of tactic, or totally nit it up when you're very deep, which can help when you're taking shots.

Quote:
10-16BIs?! That's not a downswing man, you should really be re-evaluating your game.
I don't think it's necessarily his game. It's possible, and he should definitely re-evaluate it, but 10 buyins can happen. I had a day where I was negative 4 buyins, and I did the EV math on like 8 or 9 all ins I had and my EV was like +2 buyins, which is crazy.

And that's 100bb max poker. If my game was deeper I still would have been all in most of those times because I was ahead like 7 of 9, so I would have lost a lot more.
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Old 07-19-2012, 12:01 PM   #1924
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Originally Posted by iLikeCaliDonks View Post
@Pokerisfrustrating that sounds really good man. Start at 60bigs and work your way up. I'm going to use that for 5/10 when the time is right.
I really want to move up, but I'm really debating how much to buyin. Our 5/10 is $500-$2000, so I'm really thinking about taking some shots with like $500-$600. I know it's like silly poker but I want to scout out the game, and if it's really aggro I can punish them by playing short.
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Old 07-19-2012, 12:12 PM   #1925
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Not necessarily. If you buy in 100bb you're still 100bb. I'm assuming if you're taking shots you're not going to buyin 300bb, which is totally understandable.

Where you run into problems is that when you double up or triple up people have you covered. That's going to increase your variance a lot, but you're not always going to be 300bb deep even when you have longer sessions.

You could make a case for still taking shots with 70bb or 100bb or whatever and if you get deep vs GOOD players and you feel uncomfortable, cutting your sessions short if necessary.

I know you don't want to "hit and run" or cut your sessions short when you're winning, but I think you can take that kind of tactic, or totally nit it up when you're very deep, which can help when you're taking shots.



I don't think it's necessarily his game. It's possible, and he should definitely re-evaluate it, but 10 buyins can happen. I had a day where I was negative 4 buyins, and I did the EV math on like 8 or 9 all ins I had and my EV was like +2 buyins, which is crazy.

And that's 100bb max poker. If my game was deeper I still would have been all in most of those times because I was ahead like 7 of 9, so I would have lost a lot more.
Well the difference between a 6BI downswing and 10 BI "downswing" is substantial.. that's 67% bigger........... and once you get 16 BIs, that just definitely is not all because of the cards..
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