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Old 06-29-2017, 02:59 PM   #19151
Lapidator
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

I prefer to keep data in CSV form as its trivial to use a program like Notepad++, Matlab or Octave to read the raw data.

Notepad++ can be used to search ASCII text for keywords very quickly in gargantuan files (I have GPS logs that are 10s of MB in length, unfortunately).

SO say you have a player, "JimmyTheNose", you can grep your CSV database very easily without having to use Excel to handle it.
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Old 06-29-2017, 03:01 PM   #19152
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Use repeating forms (e.g. structs) like:

PrePot (bb)
PX's Name
PX's Position
PX's hand
PX's Stack remaining
PX's action
PX's size (bb)
PostPot (bb)

To make automating the hand histories easier.

If I was going to write this up for analysis in Matlab each Hand would maybe be a struct...
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Old 06-29-2017, 03:04 PM   #19153
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

You can always add a field that will take in notes for each action line.

So in your shorthand, perhaps you use /* and */ to enclose comments that go in the end of a line in your CSV.

E.g.

458,Flop,4,AsKsJs,34,Hero,SB,QsQc,85,Puke-Check,0,34,/*This Villain will always bet a made hand here*/
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Old 06-29-2017, 04:41 PM   #19154
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Old 06-29-2017, 09:57 PM   #19155
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Quote:
Originally Posted by homerdash View Post
don't do any of this at 1/2 imo
Voice of experience itt.
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Old 06-29-2017, 10:00 PM   #19156
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Quote:
Originally Posted by Avaritia View Post
Alright excel gurus itt:

Im making a live hand history tracker. Yes its dumb / waste of time / meaningless sample.

My question is, looking at how a hand history is converted from pokerstars for example, how would you go about creating a matrix in excel that does something similar.

My normal shorthand looks something like this:

utgL, co $25,btn $75,utgf, coC. Flop K76ssd. CO x, BTN $80, f

Now, i am adapting it into a pre filled template.

If im tracking only my hands, how would you set this up in excel. So that each hand history reads formulaically / consistently

It might be easier if i snippet what i have so far but i dont want to corrupt ideas yet
Honestly, there are too many inflection points to do this in excel on the fly. Each player in the hand increases dimensionality so n>3 is a nightmare.

But Lapi are smart so python scripts.

Last edited by zoltan; 06-29-2017 at 10:06 PM.
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Old 06-30-2017, 12:38 AM   #19157
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

I definitely would not recommend trying to make a live poker hand history database.
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Old 06-30-2017, 01:34 AM   #19158
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Hello cashgamers. i play 60s spins and 30-100$ mtts online and have decent winrates at those, about 100% roi in mtts and 7bb/100 in spins. I've found a cashgame in my city, with no regs at all. Ive played there for a few hours and the game is full of LAG and LP players, those that 10x overbet shove flop OOP and not fold FDs to a shove getting 3:1 on the turn. The action is as fast as it gets live i guess.
I can get a loan ~15 buyins for that game, at 10% monthly interest.
The game runs every day and i could put in some 60 hours a month. I am staked online so it does not affect the online action. The min buyin is 50bbs and i people play very deep at times as i saw some 500-600bb stacks.

Do you think it is worth risking it as in RoR > 5%? Also what kind of winrate would you expect in an all-recs game with one online reg and what kind of swings? Basically i would need to win ~10bb per hour or so for it to be better than playing online.

Last edited by RuskiiSX; 06-30-2017 at 01:48 AM.
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Old 06-30-2017, 01:42 AM   #19159
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

You can't win what you don't put in the middle
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Old 06-30-2017, 01:43 AM   #19160
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

But seriously if the games playing deep af and aggro af you should not be playing with 1500bb roll, esp if that money matters to you.
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Old 06-30-2017, 02:42 AM   #19161
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Thanks YGOchamp, do you think that a ~5k bb roll would be adequate or is that an overkill?
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Old 06-30-2017, 02:57 AM   #19162
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Not even close to overkill.

In an ideal world you want to always be covering the fish. So 300-500bb in that game would be a better representation of one buy in.

You also want to be over-rolled in an ideal world. Even with a standard ~20-30 buy ins to be "properly" rolled, its still going to be brutal when you drop 5-10 buy ins on a non-replishanable roll. To play your A-game you should be able to drop 10-20 buy ins without stressing much over it imo.

fwiw I think the game is still very profitable and you're able to play on your current role, but the correct strat would be to buy in like 100bb and play very very nitty until you have more wiggle room. Your WR obv isnt going to be nearly as high as if you were able to buy in for 500bb and make insane hero calls vs people spewing bcuz you can afford to lose -- but its a start
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Old 06-30-2017, 04:03 AM   #19163
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Quote:
Originally Posted by YGOchamp View Post
...
Thanks again, gl to you
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Old 06-30-2017, 04:47 AM   #19164
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Please don't borrow money at vig to play poker
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Old 06-30-2017, 05:40 AM   #19165
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Originally Posted by johnnyBuz View Post
Please don't borrow money at vig to play poker
ok i wont, thanks
will just grind online for now, at least i got more of a purpose now. Those games would be a good retirement from spins.
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Old 06-30-2017, 08:07 AM   #19166
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Yeah, that game sounds amazing, but I'd look for a staking deal before I'd just take out a loan. FWIW, 10BB/hr is not uncommon ITT for normal games, so that game might well be beatable for considerably more, but the swings will be brutal.

That said, I'd definitely take a 5BI shot at it, if you can afford to lose the money, because though your RoR is high, so would your chance of going robusto.
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Old 06-30-2017, 09:03 AM   #19167
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Quote:
Originally Posted by zoltan View Post
Honestly, there are too many inflection points to do this in excel on the fly. Each player in the hand increases dimensionality so n>3 is a nightmare.

But Lapi are smart so python scripts.
Right?!

Quote:
Originally Posted by gangip View Post
I definitely would not recommend trying to make a live poker hand history database.
Right!?!?!?
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Old 06-30-2017, 12:07 PM   #19168
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Quote:
Originally Posted by Garick View Post
FWIW, 10BB/hr is not uncommon ITT for normal games
I kinda wish we had an easy summary page to refer to, and maybe I'm just misremembering wrongly, but I'm not sure I've ever seen someone post a non-lol sample size (2000++ hours) at 10bb/hr in this thread.

Am I wrong on this?

I recall Duke posting a pretty good giraffe, but even his hadn't reached 2000 hours (if I recall). I'm guessing Squiddy would have these type of results (but I don't actually recall seeing the exact giraffe). But as much as 10bb/hr is bandied about as being a common good live winrate, it's amazing how little I actually see evidence of that (over a significant sample size) in this thread.

Gpointmetothepost#s,imoG
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Old 06-30-2017, 12:11 PM   #19169
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Originally Posted by gangip View Post
I definitely would not recommend trying to make a live poker hand history database.
It's ok, it's for another player.



GlovesAva'sambitions!seriously,goodluckandIhopeyou areabletopostconclusionsoneday!G
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Old 06-30-2017, 12:39 PM   #19170
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lapidator View Post
My first couple thoughts on this... you could easily write a python script to take in a text file generated on your phone to build a CSV file that would be automatically imported by Excel.

The Excel/CSV result would be something like each hand is comprised of multiple rows as actions and columns are Player's hands (and their actions) and pots, etc...

Column headers:
Hand unique ID
Street
Action count
Community Cards
Pot (bb)
PX's Name
PX's Position
PX's hand
PX's Stack remaining
PX's action
PX's size (bb)
Pot (bb)

So a simple example of the resultant CSV, HU with Hero as SB:

458,Preflop,1,,1.5,Hero,SB,QsQc,99.5,Bet,3,4
458,Preflop,2,,4,Fish1,BB,??,99,Raise,15,19
458,Preflop,3,,19,Hero,SB,QsQc,97,Call,15,34
458,Flop,4,AsKsJs,34,Hero,SB,QsQc,85,Puke-Check,0,34
458,Flop,5,AsKsJs,34,Fish1,BB,??,85,Bet,30,64
458,Flop,6,AsKsJs,64,Hero,SB,QsQc,Fold,0,64

The key here is that each line of the CSV file is only one action with pointers to the previous and next action.

If your shorthand is regular in form, then you could easily have a python script that would build the CSV file for you. And then you can have a macro in Excel read the CSV file and dump it into a proper .xlsx file which then can do math and analysis.

Or, you could have a different form of file for the xlsx file and the CSV file would just be the raw data.
This clearly good from a data analysis/retention standpoint, but terrible from a 'time to input while at the table' standpoint imo.

Think about how long it would take you to type this all out on your phone mid hand. Let alone remember it if you're in the hand and having to type it out after the hand while paying attention to the hand that is currently going on to type up that one too.
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Old 06-30-2017, 12:43 PM   #19171
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Quote:
Originally Posted by Avaritia View Post
I have a template on my phone.

It looks like this:

1
UTG
UTG2
UTG3
UTG4
HJ
CO
BTN
Sb
Bb

2
UTG
UTG2
UTG3
UTG4
HJ
CO
BTN
Sb
Bb

And goes to 100. I plan on logging 100 hands a session.

To carry out a hand history:

2
UTG ($600) $20/c
UTG2 f
UTG3 f
UTG4 ($1000) c/f
HJ f
CO f
BTN (H$900) $80
Sb f
Bb f

Flop: K67ssd UTG x, BTN $90, UTG f

So here H= hero c = call x = check f = fold. $amount = an open or a raise. So the $20/c means open $20 and called the btn raise.

This looks like alot but is surprisingly simple with the template. I need it like this bc i need an easy way of seeing stack sizes.

As for uploading to excel, it will be manual. I do nothing at work. The question is what will the matrix look like to capture that hand history. (Cant just be text. I want to KNOW what btns cbet % is after 1000 hands) so it needs to be a column or row.)
This will take you FAR more time than you realize.

I already do a dumbed down version of this where I track all the hands that I play and it while it only takes a few seconds to type it into my phone, when there is action in the hand, it can take upwards of 10 seconds to type it in. This isn't even trying to write down what everyone else is doing during the hand. You're going to end up sitting on your phone the entire time I think.

This is what my output looks like:

CO: XXx, fd
HJ: QJo, fd
MP: A3o, fd
UG: J2o, fd
UT: 92o, fd
BB: Q6o, fd
SB: Q5o, fd
BT: 62s, fd
CO: ATo, rs $15 2cl, 3fl A62dxd $30 win
HJ: KTo, rs $12 1cl fd to $38 3b from bb
M1: JJo, 3b $10 ep open to $30 1cl, 2fl J74r ck $35 1cl, turn 7x donk $75 I rs AI $300 eff and mhig vs 7x
MP: Q7o, fd
UG: A9o, fd
UT: 65o, fd
BB: J6o, fd
SB: XXx, fd

This is pretty doable over the long term, esp once you get used to the short hand that you create for your self, and if you're a pretty fast typer on your phone as well. I've got >10k hands since I've started this project.
And lets you get some base level statistics on your play.

But really the key here is that getting the data that you want while still being able to track the action at the table, and you know play poker at the same time is not going to be as easy as you think.
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Old 06-30-2017, 12:47 PM   #19172
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

how do you have so many frush draws with offsuit hands?

haven't used it but i am gonna try this when i have extra manies again, dunno how tedious inputting is (that's poker analytics aka the subscription live db)

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Old 06-30-2017, 12:51 PM   #19173
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Quote:
Originally Posted by iraisetoomuch View Post
But really the key here is that getting the data that you want while still being able to track the action at the table, and you know play poker at the same time is not going to be as easy as you think.
I still remember M's homework thread from a couple of years ago where I tracked my hands. I could only manage it for 2 months, and only tracking $100 wins/losses, and only for myself, before giving up.

It's hard to do.

GbutgoodlucktoAva,imo,gogogo!G
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Old 06-30-2017, 12:58 PM   #19174
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Quote:
Originally Posted by iraisetoomuch View Post
This clearly good from a data analysis/retention standpoint, but terrible from a 'time to input while at the table' standpoint imo.

Think about how long it would take you to type this all out on your phone mid hand. Let alone remember it if you're in the hand and having to type it out after the hand while paying attention to the hand that is currently going on to type up that one too.
Have you been hanging around with Zoltan or something?


Quote:
you could easily write a python script to take in a text file generated on your phone to build a CSV file that would be automatically imported by Excel.
This means...

Quote:
If your shorthand is regular in form, then you could easily have a python script that would build the CSV file for you.
Clear? No... ok.

Obviously, the shorthand file will have "highly compressed" information, allowing for quick entry using a smartphone interface. Presumably, this creates a file that would not be trivial to then automatically input to Excel (using Excel's standard tool set).

So if Ava wants to then spend time typing out his notes into spreadsheet form, then good for him, but I would much rather just spend a couple hours writing a python script that opens the smartphone generated shorthand file and then expand the compressed data into a form that is either directly importable to Excel (e.g. CSV) or some other database style/form that can be operated upon using a statistical package (e.g. Octave or Matlab).

Perhaps there are more efficient ways of accomplishing this. However:

...Python (running on Cygwin) is free.

...Learning Python is pretty easy starting from zero.

~~~~~

The amount of time it takes is unimportant as Ava already suggested he's only going to log a hundred or so hands a session. It doesn't have to be done immediately, so waiting until you don't have good hole cards should be fine unless Ava suddenly becomes a 75/74 LAGtard.
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Old 06-30-2017, 01:02 PM   #19175
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lapidator View Post
The amount of time it takes is unimportant as Ava already suggested he's only going to log a hundred or so hands a session. It doesn't have to be done immediately, so waiting until you don't have good hole cards should be fine unless Ava suddenly becomes a 75/74 LAGtard.
I'm not debating the notion of short handing this.

I'm debating how much time it will take to enter into this phone the level of detail he wants even when short handing it as much as possible.
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