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Old 07-08-2012, 10:08 PM   #1876
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Originally Posted by iLikeCaliDonks View Post
**** my biggest is +5400 for 125hrs. I average between +2500-+3500
I only have another 1659 profit over next 130 hours.

obv ran hot the first time
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Old 07-08-2012, 10:10 PM   #1877
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

I thought maybe my winrate was low because of 60bbs buyin. But I have talked to some people and basically that's no excuse. I'm really hating averaging 25-30 dollars an hour. Only good thing is I have been consistent for 3 years. But its not good enough. I want a 10k month got dammit.
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Old 07-08-2012, 10:17 PM   #1878
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

stop tipping
dont pay for anything out of your stack
always have the max buyin in front of you; even if you only have 58bbs, thats 2 extra BBs youd miss out on when you double, and that adds up

those are the easy non strat pieces of advice I have
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Old 07-08-2012, 10:40 PM   #1879
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dhcg86 View Post
stop tipping
dont pay for anything out of your stack
always have the max buyin in front of you; even if you only have 58bbs, thats 2 extra BBs youd miss out on when you double, and that adds up

those are the easy non strat pieces of advice I have
Not tipping is such a trash move

I can see taking some money out of your wallet to to but you have to tip
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Old 07-08-2012, 10:41 PM   #1880
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

shipped a 15k month in june playing full time at venetian...currently up 4.5k in july

ev is sick high during wsop i
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Old 07-08-2012, 10:43 PM   #1881
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Originally Posted by iLikeCaliDonks View Post
I thought maybe my winrate was low because of 60bbs buyin. But I have talked to some people and basically that's no excuse. I'm really hating averaging 25-30 dollars an hour. Only good thing is I have been consistent for 3 years. But its not good enough. I want a 10k month got dammit.
The buyin cap is an issue for sure
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Old 07-08-2012, 10:46 PM   #1882
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Quote:
Originally Posted by dhcg86 View Post
stop tipping
dont pay for anything out of your stack
always have the max buyin in front of you; even if you only have 58bbs, thats 2 extra BBs youd miss out on when you double, and that adds up

those are the easy non strat pieces of advice I have
Please don't not tip the dealers.

I know it sucks to have to pay out of your pots, but the dealers work for tips basically and if you tip NOTHING it really kinda screws them over. You don't have tip a lot, but IMO you should tip at least $1 per pot.

If the pots are really tiny in your game then fine, don't tip. But it's just one of the unfortunate points of live poker vs online that dealer tokes cut into our win rate.
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Old 07-08-2012, 10:56 PM   #1883
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I think this is a terrible idea.

move up to 2/5 when you have 25bi.
Risk of ruin is a function of your win rate. If you have 5 buy ins, and your win rate was exactly break even, you'd have a very high risk of ruin.
If you have that same 5 buy ins, but your win rate was 25bb/hr, as that other poster is claiming as a long run win rate, your risk of ruin would be very low.

So, yeah, if his 1/2 winrate were actually $50/hr, 6 buy ins would be more than enough to have a smallish risk of ruin.

I ran the variance calculator with my EV adjusted win rate for a 3 buy in shot at 2/5, and I only had a 1 in 4 chance of busting the shot roll.
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Old 07-08-2012, 11:07 PM   #1884
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Please don't not tip the dealers.

I know it sucks to have to pay out of your pots, but the dealers work for tips basically and if you tip NOTHING it really kinda screws them over. You don't have tip a lot, but IMO you should tip at least $1 per pot.

If the pots are really tiny in your game then fine, don't tip. But it's just one of the unfortunate points of live poker vs online that dealer tokes cut into our win rate.
I've mostly stopped tipping. I only tip now if I win a biggish pot, I am up on the session, and I like the dealer.

Sometimes I tip my favorite dealers even when stuck.

It's not my fault dealers work in a system where their employer thinks it's ok to pay a ****ty wage. I don't feel obligated to do their employer's job. That's especially true since the system sucks in that it encourages dealer/player collusion. Tipping should be prohibited by law as it is in Australia, not informally required.
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Old 07-08-2012, 11:11 PM   #1885
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Unfortunately mpethy, most of us do not play in a place like Vegas, in which we could actually care less of what others think or do.
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Old 07-09-2012, 12:35 AM   #1886
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Tipping should be prohibited by law as it is in Australia, not informally required.
I reckon you'd get more hands per hour in Vegas than Australia. We average between 25 and 30.

By the way, casinos in Australia charge hourlies as well as rake. $10 on 2/5, $5 on 2/3 (rake is 10% capped at $10 on 2/5 and $8 on 2/3). They justify these extra charges by saying they have to pay dealers more, due to the law prohibiting tipping. Dealers don't get more than $25 per hour, though, and would prefer being tipped, and I reckon they'd be less disgruntled as a result and just do a better job.

Overall 2/3 and 2/5 the house takes between $200 and $300 on each table per hour will all these charges; players are thus leaking about 6bb per hour. I can never get a definite answer on how many bbs players leak by tipping; I assume it's close to 2bb per hour.
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Old 07-09-2012, 01:53 AM   #1887
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Unfortunately dealer tipping is the system we have and it's unlikely to change in the US. If all of the good dealers quit and left crappy dealers who were willing to work for less it wouldn't help the game.

IMO it's the same as eating in a restaurant. Tipping in general is a stupid concept and 15-20% customary tipping is pretty ridiculous. But I'm not going to not tip my server because all it does is screw them over. It's not going to change the system if I stop doing it - it's just going to make all of the dealers and floor hate me.

I just look at it as a small added part of the rake, which is basically what it is. If dealer tipping was cut they'd just take more money per hour to pay the dealers more, and it would generally balance out.

That being said I generally tip ~1% up to a max of $3/hand. I don't tip if I take the pot down preflop, although I do tip in small pots if I see a flop. There isn't really much method to my tipping I suppose.

Also dealer/player collusion is virtually impossible at live casinos. Most hands are dealt from a shuffle machine and 1 cut.
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Old 07-09-2012, 02:01 AM   #1888
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Quote:
Originally Posted by mpethybridge View Post
I've mostly stopped tipping. I only tip now if I win a biggish pot, I am up on the session, and I like the dealer.

Sometimes I tip my favorite dealers even when stuck.

It's not my fault dealers work in a system where their employer thinks it's ok to pay a ****ty wage. I don't feel obligated to do their employer's job. That's especially true since the system sucks in that it encourages dealer/player collusion. Tipping should be prohibited by law as it is in Australia, not informally required.
I buy my dealers drinks sometimes, and will give gifts at xmas. But its not my fault they became dealers, and they certainly make many mistakes, so tipping isnt even justified at all.

I dont care if people like me or not, I care about making money. Theres a million tipping threads out there; most disagree with me. If you think Im crazy just add up your tips for a month and then try to understand how much money youre wasting
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Old 07-09-2012, 02:29 AM   #1889
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You guys should take this discussion to the many tipping threads available.

Generally most players over tip and has caused dealers to expect tips even if they are inefficient, rude, etc.

I personally dont tip when

1. Win a pot with a bluff
2. Small pot
3. Received a bad beat wont tip until dealer change
4. Dealer is slow
5. Dealer makes too many mistakes
6. Dealer is not nice and doesnt care to show the bad day she or he is having
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Old 07-09-2012, 05:43 PM   #1890
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None of you tip at restaurants then correct? Those people chose their crappy professions and it's their fault they get paid so low I guess.

Quote:
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3. Received a bad beat wont tip until dealer change
So you don't tip because when you play bad or make a mistake it's the dealer's fault. Phil Hellmuth is that you?

Quote:
1. Win a pot with a bluff
Kinda random. It's the dealer's fault you got bad cards and had to win despite not hitting the board?

---------

If you're not going to tip b/c of win rate considerations I guess that makes sense. I'm running 7bb/hour at 2/5 and I tip. If you think the tips are the reason you're not winning at poker I think you're mistaken. I'm not saying that's what you guys believe, but I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of people did.

BTW, this is another reason why it's imperative to move up in stakes as soon as you can. Dealer tips/rake are significantly smaller factors the higher up you go.
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Old 07-09-2012, 08:51 PM   #1891
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There is a tipping containment thread..

Last 1,000 hours I've played $38.66/hr.

About 60% $1/2,$1/3,$2/3 38% $2/5/$5/5. Played 3 sessions of $5/10 and down overall. Played some $8/16 limit and up a few hundo.

I buy food from money in my wallet and I don't tip for pots under $20 and only tip $1 for pots up-to $300, $2-4 for pots $300-1000+.
I table select and will leave games where I don't think 8bb/hr+ is attainable. I seat change often.

I feel/know I am the best player at the table 90-95% of the time. I would say about once every 5 $1/2/$1/3/$2/3 sessions I play with a player I consider of similar caliber. About once every 3 $2/5 / $5/5 session I play with 1-2 players I consider of similar caliber.
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Old 07-09-2012, 09:30 PM   #1892
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

So I just started really taking live poker seriously this summer, not really playing much poker at all since black Friday. Back then, I would grind rush SnG's and made 3-400 a week relatively easily. I would also play small stakes rush PLO which was almost printing money if you played tight pre and stacked off with top set or overpair +nf draw or pair + wrap or wrap + fd. Anyways my results have been very good over this small sample and I am just wondering if you guys think I should instantly move up or sit in bigger games whenever possible or if I still should wait.

Total sessions at 1-2 NLH: 22
Total sessions at 1-2 PLO: 3
Total sessions at 2-5 NLH: 1

Total Profit at 1-2 NLH: 10770
Total Profit at 1-2 PLO: 3045
Total Profit at 2-5 NLH: -840

Total hours at 1-2 NLH: 154, Hourly: $69
Other games way too small sample.

Winning Sessions: 16/22, 72%.

Obv this is crushing but I am still a little worried about moving up. I have almost all of this money still available. Just wanted to hear your guys thoughts, as I have only been playing very seriously and tracking my winnings for the passed few months (had $200 to my name on May 5th). My largest one day loss at 1-2 NLH is 420 and my largest win was 1170.
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Old 07-09-2012, 09:44 PM   #1893
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What's the max buyin for your 2/5 game? You might want to buyin 100bb anyway even if you can buy in 200.

If that 10k is in your roll, you really should have no trouble moving up. It's really casino dependent, but 2/5 players in generally aren't THAT much better than 1/2 players. It's just that the good players will be semi-pro and the ok players won't be total droolers. But I've found that a lot of younger guys who at least think they're decent play 1/2. You'll see a lot of somewhat older regs playing 2/5 that aren't particularly good.

Table selection is also pretty important if you're at a casino with many 2/5 games. Try to recognize the regs ASAP and if the game is all regs that are good there's no shame in moving. I frequently move several tables in a session if the games get worse or of I just can't get the right seat that I feel comfortable in.

Rake and toke considerations make 2/5 much more attractive than 1/2 because IMO players aren't THAT much better and your win rate may improve based on that alone.

You also don't have to play 2/5 exclusively. You can take shots and get a little used to 2/5 before you move up totally.
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Old 07-09-2012, 10:24 PM   #1894
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Latest trip report:

I went on a pretty massive heater this week. Stats for the week:

45 hours played, +$2969, $64/hour. Of that, 40 hours were 2/5 for +2649 or $66/hour and 5 hours were 10/20 Omaha hi/lo which was +261 or $50/hour

Obviously that's unsustainable. I played well in some spots, worse as the days went by, but all and all I'm pretty happy with my week. Running about 2x my EV also helps a little bit I planned on getting a lot more hours but Revel was running a food promotion and had a 4th of July party so I wasted some time getting some really world class free food

This is my new graph for 2/5 only this year.



Current 2/5 stats:

427 hours played
+$14,883
$34.9/hour

Approximate STDev of my hourly rate: $103.5 - again that's an approximation and it relates to my HOURLY RATE, not my win/session

I really like 10/20 Omaha as a break from 2/5 because it's pretty brainless and easy, and just by playing appropriate starting hands I can do pretty well. I think I'm going to start using it as a warmup/cooldown game or when my brain just isn't working and I'm afraid I'll make a 100bb mistake at 2/5
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Old 07-09-2012, 11:02 PM   #1895
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CWhite4 View Post
So I just started really taking live poker seriously this summer, not really playing much poker at all since black Friday. Back then, I would grind rush SnG's and made 3-400 a week relatively easily. I would also play small stakes rush PLO which was almost printing money if you played tight pre and stacked off with top set or overpair +nf draw or pair + wrap or wrap + fd. Anyways my results have been very good over this small sample and I am just wondering if you guys think I should instantly move up or sit in bigger games whenever possible or if I still should wait.

Total sessions at 1-2 NLH: 22
Total sessions at 1-2 PLO: 3
Total sessions at 2-5 NLH: 1

Total Profit at 1-2 NLH: 10770
Total Profit at 1-2 PLO: 3045
Total Profit at 2-5 NLH: -840

Total hours at 1-2 NLH: 154, Hourly: $69
Other games way too small sample.

Winning Sessions: 16/22, 72%.

Obv this is crushing but I am still a little worried about moving up. I have almost all of this money still available. Just wanted to hear your guys thoughts, as I have only been playing very seriously and tracking my winnings for the passed few months (had $200 to my name on May 5th). My largest one day loss at 1-2 NLH is 420 and my largest win was 1170.
Sample size way too small to have any real meaning.

I would just do more shot take and see how it goes.
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Old 07-10-2012, 02:09 PM   #1896
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Quote:
Originally Posted by CWhite4 View Post
So I just started really taking live poker seriously this summer, not really playing much poker at all since black Friday. Back then, I would grind rush SnG's and made 3-400 a week relatively easily. I would also play small stakes rush PLO which was almost printing money if you played tight pre and stacked off with top set or overpair +nf draw or pair + wrap or wrap + fd. Anyways my results have been very good over this small sample and I am just wondering if you guys think I should instantly move up or sit in bigger games whenever possible or if I still should wait.

Total sessions at 1-2 NLH: 22
Total sessions at 1-2 PLO: 3
Total sessions at 2-5 NLH: 1

Total Profit at 1-2 NLH: 10770
Total Profit at 1-2 PLO: 3045
Total Profit at 2-5 NLH: -840

Total hours at 1-2 NLH: 154, Hourly: $69
Other games way too small sample.

Winning Sessions: 16/22, 72%.

Obv this is crushing but I am still a little worried about moving up. I have almost all of this money still available. Just wanted to hear your guys thoughts, as I have only been playing very seriously and tracking my winnings for the passed few months (had $200 to my name on May 5th). My largest one day loss at 1-2 NLH is 420 and my largest win was 1170.

So you make $75/hr at 1/2 NLH?

And +$1,000 per session at 1/2 PLO?
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Old 07-10-2012, 02:43 PM   #1897
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So you make $75/hr at 1/2 NLH?

And +$1,000 per session at 1/2 PLO?
I didn't notice it was only 150 hours.

Still, 2/5 is not THAT skilled. I'm sure he could at least take shots, play tight and get a feel for the game.

I just had 2 months about 200 hours where I was be/negative. This last 2 months over like 130 hours I'm like 80-100/hour. There can be crazy variance, and I'm fairly sure that $75/hour at 1/2 is unsustainable.

Still, if you think you have a skill edge despite the variance, IMO you should at least work in some 2/5 because rake, toke (unless you're one of these non-tippers sigh), etc considerations really make 2/5 a better game in most places.
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Old 07-10-2012, 02:46 PM   #1898
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At least shot take 2/5 to get familiar with bet sizing and be comfortable at the size of pots.

Those two things are usually the biggest hurdles when moving up.
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Old 07-10-2012, 03:16 PM   #1899
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Clayton View Post
How many months of living expenses do you guys like to keep separate from your bankroll?

Assuming we are putting money from our bankroll into that "safety bin" every month.

I hear a lot of people say 6 months, and I know it's a subjective answer, but I'm curious where people get their answer.
I make enough from my part-time job to cover monthly living expenses so I don't really keep a "safety bin" separate from my BR although I could take 3 months expenses out of my BR and still play my normal game comfortably.

If I gave up my part-time job I think 3 months separate from BR would be good enough as long as I still have a proper roll for my regular limit and am willing/able to move down for a little bit if needed.

I currently play a mix of 1/2 and 2/5 (~85/15 mix), and would not go full-time if 2/5 couldn't be my main game. The higher I played the larger the safety net I'd want though.

btw good luck Day 2! following on twitter

Last edited by PuraVida96; 07-10-2012 at 03:22 PM. Reason: wsop run good!
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Old 07-10-2012, 04:02 PM   #1900
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If I gave up my part-time job I think 3 months separate from BR would be good enough as long as I still have a proper roll for my regular limit and am willing/able to move down for a little bit if needed.
You just have to remember that when you do that you can't add all of your wins to your bankroll. You have to live off of those, so if you go on a downswing you can get in trouble and if you're looking to move up it's going to take much longer b/c you'll have to earn ABOVE your living expenses to add to your BR.

You might even want to keep working just so you build up your BR to play 2/5 full-time.

If you're good enough you want to move up to 2/5 as soon as you have the roll to do so and as soon as you're comfortable.
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