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Old 05-25-2017, 03:52 PM   #18826
Petrucci
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

My opinion remains yes, 70 BB is a nice stack depth when youre trying to build a roll up with very limited amount of buyins. As soon as you get enough to 12 buyins 100 BB each, i would start buying in for 100 BB. But less then that i think 70 accomplishes a few good things for you.

Youre not extremely short like you are when buying in for like 40 BB, and its a stacksize that is particulary good against other deeper stacks- because you get paid off alot easier due to they automaticly feel like "you have so small stack". So you may have to employ a pretty tight approach, because big chunks of your winrate will be to getting paid off on your big hands. Flopped sets, QQ+ and AK hands and so on. Some limp reraises with monsters can work really well with that stack depth if table plays deep and lots of raises goes multiway to flop. If youre up a buyin and want to bank a profit, just cash out.

Edit: also it makes it easier on your part with a short roll to avoid sitting deep stacked against the other skilled regs that you feel is better than you. That battle is longer ahead in time, and not a battle/challenge you need to attack right now imo.

But the key of course is to play the stackdepth you buy in for in an appropriate manner. Either if its 40,70 or 100 BB.
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Old 05-25-2017, 03:54 PM   #18827
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

@ rage

Buying in deep in a game where there are 3 or 4 better players than us sounds like an absolutely horrible idea, imo. It's actually quite likely this table might not be beatable with that many better players sitting at it.

Unless you consider yourself one of the better deepstack players at your table, I would actually recommend buying in shortish and just playing nit tight ABC, which will own all the deeper stacked players who will correctly playing loose against each other but incorrectly playing loose against your shortstack. The most difficult adjustment will be what to do when doubling up (where table changing, if that is an option, is probably best).

ETA: Here's a simple question for you regarding buying in deep to cover the fish: do you ever see the fish stack off deep lightly? In my experience, this is one of the biggest myths of poker, cuz in my experience I simply don't see it (although I could definitely see the possibility of people outplaying fish with the worst hand due to the fish not wanting to stack off deep with mediocre hands, but I get the feeling that is not what we are talking about since you seem to be concerned about not hitting hands). The fish are actually more likely to stack off with lol holding when shorter / to shorter stacks since it is "only" $200 or whatever. You'd be much better off taking a fish to value town $100 at a time for 10 times over a session than thinking you're going to get his $1000 stack in one hand (cuz the latter simply ain't gonna happen, at least, in my experience). But, as always, your experience may differ.

Gimo;goodluckG

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Old 05-25-2017, 05:22 PM   #18828
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Originally Posted by Angrist View Post
Being friendly at the tables can get you invited to home games which is great for your winrate when the players are bad, and great for your poker network if they're decent and you can talk about the game/hands with them.

It's also good because it can get the fishy players to softplay you because they like you, or give you free information.


Beyond all the winrate benefits of being sociable at the table, you meet a lot of really interesting people from different walks of life at a poker table. I know mechanics, jewelers, ticket hustlers, lawyers, drug dealers, and I'm pretty sure a guy that would 'disappear' someone if I needed it.
Home games were the best thing to ever happen to my live game. I was mostly an online player at mid to high stakes PLO, then transitioned to a home game that had a mixture of absolute whales to high stakes pros and playing with pros who were better than I was made my game what it is today.

Fwiw two weeks ago I saw a guy stack off on a 25699 board (diamond flush came otr) with black Q7. He check raised, then called off otr, for about 200bb extra on the all in he faced.
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Old 05-25-2017, 05:28 PM   #18829
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Yea. It's the engineer that values more data over "correct" data I guess.

I'm fairly sure that I just still suck at PLO. Particularly in marginal spots when the game is juicy and I'm not sure how wide I should be opening or calling. I'm also really under-rolled for it and shy away from repeatedly shoveling money into the pot in near coin flip situations. That and just from watching the game play out around me, I'm pretty sure that the sample size needed to determine your real ability in a PLO game is significantly larger than NLHE ... and I'm no where near that.

My $1/2 NLHE results are closer to $15/hr over the last 2k hours of so and fairly respectable IMO. Especially having played for about 2 years or so on a perpetually short roll due to life constraints requiring 'poker' money.
If you ever want to just talk some PLO as it's off topic here feel free to shoot me a pm. Obviously there are coaching videos and whatnot of people with higher ability than I, but if you want actual dialogue I can answer whatever.
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Old 05-25-2017, 05:36 PM   #18830
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Originally Posted by Ragequit99 View Post
Yeah I know that feeling of good LAGs being one step ahead of you. That's my other worry, I'm definitely outclassed by a few of the regs in my game. I fear being in pots with them deepstacked and they know it.

They got their skills through experience. I'm too under rolled to feel confident playing deep against the regs but need a big stack to take advantage of the fish and to build experience. Catch-22: I need a bigger roll to play well and improve so i can win long term but I can't get a bigger roll without winning it!
Any possibility of exploring deep stack at a lower level? I realize sometimes it's hard to find the opportunities, but it's not that uncommon to find some tables where the average stack is well above the table max BI. Try sitting at those and simply remain at the table longer should you build your stack up quickly.
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Old 05-25-2017, 06:37 PM   #18831
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Thanks for the advice guys. Really appreciate it.

So I'm deffo going with 70bb buy ins again. I won £2,650 that way already, I hopefully can do it again.


Re. Smaller tables:
We have 1/1 tables too but rake is 10% compared to 1/2 at 5% and both are capped at £10. I sometimes play 1/1 while waiting for 1/2 but assumed rake was unbeatable. Maybe I should give it a try just to double check how bad the fish are. Thoughts on beatability appreciated.


GG you are right - my biggest mistake yesterday was to stay seated. Table changes weren't available but I should have just gone home. I guess after such a long winning streak I felt like i could take a shot at dealing with the regs - hubris, I can't, certainly not OOP and barely IP. That's hubris too, some of them still own me from OOP!

Re. fish, they won't pay off really badly unless they have 2pair+ but they also telegraph their hands so you can get folds - if you have enough chips behind. But yeah, it's usually £100 at a time you get out of them so probably I get the bulk of what's easy to get buying in short anyway now I think about it.


Re. What to do when I double up (this has been a big point of indecision for me!). Hopefully you guys can advise. Table change rules are same stack for same stakes unless you are gone from table for 2 hours.

My options are:

1) Switching between stakes:
Cycling between 1/3 and 1/2 is bigger buy ins and better players, 5% rake capped at £10 + £1 loyalty tornament prise pool.
Switching 1/2 and 1/1 means half my time at 10% rake, £10 cap + £1 loyalty tourney.
All tables are min buyin 40bb, max buyin initially 200bb and thereafter to cover deepest stack.

2) I could just take 2 hours out but it is difficult enough fitting evening/nights poker in with daytime hours as it is.

3) I can just go home but then travel costs-per-hour-played go up and it takes longer to accumulated enough hours to see whether I'm actually winning or not.


One other thought I have - if I do enough hours and survive it I can get into the loyalty tournament and play the regs "for free", no risk to my BR. It's a good tournament every 5 weeks top prize usually £25,000. Could solve my BR issues too. Also I'm much more likely to win that through luck than I am to beat the regs through skill in the cash games

Last edited by Ragequit99; 05-25-2017 at 06:44 PM.
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Old 05-25-2017, 07:18 PM   #18832
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Originally Posted by gobbledygeek View Post
Here's a simple question for you regarding buying in deep to cover the fish: do you ever see the fish stack off deep lightly? In my experience, this is one of the biggest myths of poker, cuz in my experience I simply don't see it

...

The fish are actually more likely to stack off with lol holding when shorter / to shorter stacks since it is "only" $200 or whatever. You'd be much better off taking a fish to value town $100 at a time for 10 times over a session than thinking you're going to get his $1000 stack in one hand
+1
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Old 05-26-2017, 12:35 AM   #18833
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Vv good point, GG. If a fun player is loose pre but nitty post, that player could have heaps in front. But hes a dead seat. It's all about exploiting their tendencies. No sense of sitting deep when the $$$ isn't in play.
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Old 05-26-2017, 01:27 AM   #18834
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Yall realize how difficult it is to make a good hand right?

If somebody is deep and playing nitty, your biggest exploit is to way over bluff them.
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Old 05-26-2017, 07:11 AM   #18835
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^ this is precisely what the good regs do to me after I double up from 100bb

Having been on the receiving end I can confirm that sitting IP to a nitty somewhat scared-money deep stack is a very profitable situation.
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Old 05-26-2017, 07:21 AM   #18836
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You want to flat their opens IP and look to steal on the flop or the turn when given the opportunity.

My adjustment (as the OOP scared-money deepstack) was to tighten up in EP/MP and start checking more flops, double barreling more often when I did cbetflop and putting in flop check raises with a wider range.

I adjusted too slow though because I didn't want to be beaten into a tighter game as that meant accepting the regs were exploiting me.

Turns out stubbornness and pride don't make for good bankroll management. Who'd have thought?
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Old 05-26-2017, 07:25 AM   #18837
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The real killer blow to someone trying to build a roll though is to put pressure on around the committment threshold. Once someone realises you are "looking only for the best spots" and aren't going to put your stack at risk without the near nuts, you're dead.

May as well cash out and go home.

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Old 05-26-2017, 07:29 AM   #18838
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Originally Posted by Ragequit99 View Post
^ this is precisely what the good regs do to me after I double up from 100bb

Having been on the receiving end I can confirm that sitting IP to a nitty somewhat scared-money deep stack is a very profitable situation.
I have couple of more pointers and opinions to chime in with here:

1) There is adjustments to be made regarding the dynamic described on deep stack play against aggro regs. Even though i personally believe the focus on that battle can wait until you have a bigger roll and/or developed your game more, but anyway. For example tightening your range when you involve yourself in a hand with them, so that alot of your continuerange will in reality be impossible to bluff you off your hand for your villains. Even though they will still think they can bluff you,big parts of your continuerange if done properly cant be bluffed by them. Manipulating your range that way can be an extremely powerful tool, and is an adjustment i have used to own several overaggro LAGs who think they can push me around by just blindly firing multiple barrells. It got to a point where one of them said to me in frustration after he once again unsuccessfully tried to barrell me off my hand: "Petrucci, youre winning money from me each ****ing session and you are probably the only one i cant win anything from".

Its about readjusting, and in my experience if you do it correctly your opponents have really big problems catching up to the adjustments youre making. Suddenly _you_ are exploiting them instead of the oposite.


2) Building a bankroll from scratch or close to scratch has its purposes. Its a process that make your grow in all aspect of your game and often also as a person. If a big bankroll comes to easy in your hands (bink a tournament or get a big money gifth from grand parents or whatever) it can be a double edged sword. You may have the money, but youre not there skillwise yet or youre not there yet mentally. You need to learn to not think about the money, you need to only care about executing the most +EV play or maximum exploitation. The only way to really do this is time, volume and slowly working your way up the ladder.

If you have to work freaking hard to build a bankroll up, you will learn so much valuable along the way wich is all part of the big process. Another example of that is you will learn that money/bankroll takes hard work to get your hands onto. If you just show up friday night and bink a tournament for like 10 K$ you wont learn that. What will happen is there will be a gap between your financial state, and other (important) parts of the puzzle. Moneywise you will have a roll right, but your skills and mental developement isnt there yet.

Last edited by Petrucci; 05-26-2017 at 07:39 AM.
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Old 05-26-2017, 08:12 AM   #18839
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Wise words Petrucci. Appreciate it. You are absolutely right, a sizeable bankroll is only any use in the hands of a player who recognises it's value, knows how to use it and has developed the mental fortitude to weather the inevitable horrors the game throws at them.

I guess it's a special case of it being about the journey and not the destination.

I'm into weight lifting too. Arnie says he thinks of everything in terms of reps. You do enough reps with enough intensity and you inevitably improve. Practice makes perfect.

I'm going to ignore the money and focus on putting in the hours of quality play required to progress my game.

I feel pretty fired up now after feeling very despondent yesterday. I can't tell you all how important this forum and all your help has been to me. Thanks guys!
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Old 05-26-2017, 08:41 AM   #18840
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gobbledygeek View Post
ETA: Here's a simple question for you regarding buying in deep to cover the fish: do you ever see the fish stack off deep lightly? In my experience, this is one of the biggest myths of poker, cuz in my experience I simply don't see it
This is way off ime.

I see fish stack off deep lightly all the time. They are unable to understand absolute vs relative hand strength and what hands are okay to stack off with on certain board textures at deeper stack depths. This is especially the case with overpairs.
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Old 05-26-2017, 08:59 AM   #18841
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Originally Posted by Ragequit99 View Post
Wise words Petrucci. Appreciate it. You are absolutely right, a sizeable bankroll is only any use in the hands of a player who recognises it's value, knows how to use it and has developed the mental fortitude to weather the inevitable horrors the game throws at them.

I guess it's a special case of it being about the journey and not the destination.

I'm into weight lifting too. Arnie says he thinks of everything in terms of reps. You do enough reps with enough intensity and you inevitably improve. Practice makes perfect.

I'm going to ignore the money and focus on putting in the hours of quality play required to progress my game.

I feel pretty fired up now after feeling very despondent yesterday. I can't tell you all how important this forum and all your help has been to me. Thanks guys!
Exactly. The Arnold analogy regarding lifting weights are a good one. There is no shortcuts when it comes to arriving at the final destination (whatever that is though). Youre not becoming a skilled experienced player just because you bink a donkament for 10k$ or your grandmother hands you 5k$. Its a longtime process wich requires hard work and effort, hours after hours. Its about failing, its about making mistakes,its about challenging your fears- but even so continue to get up on the horse.

Glad you got something out of it, pleasure is on my side. If you feel the need for some deeper elaboration on certain topics, or have more questions just fire it up.
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Old 05-26-2017, 10:05 AM   #18842
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a sizeable bankroll is only any use in the hands of a player who recognises it's value, knows how to use it and has developed the mental fortitude to weather the inevitable horrors the game throws at them.
100% this. I refer to that as "psychological bankroll." Money-wise, I am overrolled for 2/5 at this point, but since it doesn't run here, I only get to play it when I'm traveling. When I do get to play it, I tend to be either a bit scared money, or, more commonly, a bit over-aggro as I over-react and force myself not to be scared money to the point that I'm almost spewy.

This has become a much smaller problem as my local game is 1/3 and often gets quite deep, but it's not because my bankroll has grown so much. I was already plenty rolled for 2/5 before I moved here. It's just because I am used to bigger swings now. The BI is capped at $300, though, so I have to double up before I am playing at $2/5 stacks, and if felted will only be putting $300 more on the table, so "big loss" sessions are still rather small by 2/5 standards, and I still get depressed if I lose $1K in a session.
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Old 05-26-2017, 10:37 AM   #18843
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Originally Posted by Ragequit99 View Post
The real killer blow to someone trying to build a roll though is to put pressure on around the committment threshold. Once someone realises you are "looking only for the best spots" and aren't going to put your stack at risk without the near nuts, you're dead.

May as well cash out and go home.
I love playing with decent to good players who are uncomfortable with the amount of money in front of them. Find a hand with decent equity against their range (AK pre flop, flush draw or OESD on the flop), shove or make a committing raise on top of their bet and profit. A lot of people do NOT want to flip for big stacks even with a reasonable amount of dead money out there or they're slightly ahead. Of course, this only works if the player has a fold button and you make your move before they've put enough in the pot to feel completely committed, so better pre flop or flop than turn.
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Old 05-26-2017, 10:43 AM   #18844
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Originally Posted by Petrucci View Post
I have couple of more pointers and opinions to chime in with here:

1) There is adjustments to be made regarding the dynamic described on deep stack play against aggro regs. Even though i personally believe the focus on that battle can wait until you have a bigger roll and/or developed your game more, but anyway. For example tightening your range when you involve yourself in a hand with them, so that alot of your continuerange will in reality be impossible to bluff you off your hand for your villains. Even though they will still think they can bluff you,big parts of your continuerange if done properly cant be bluffed by them. Manipulating your range that way can be an extremely powerful tool, and is an adjustment i have used to own several overaggro LAGs who think they can push me around by just blindly firing multiple barrells. It got to a point where one of them said to me in frustration after he once again unsuccessfully tried to barrell me off my hand: "Petrucci, youre winning money from me each ****ing session and you are probably the only one i cant win anything from".
People who play this style always give me trouble. The regs I struggle with play a tight range, but once they enter a pot they're very sticky and betting large enough to price out draws.
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Old 05-26-2017, 11:07 AM   #18845
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People who play this style always give me trouble. The regs I struggle with play a tight range, but once they enter a pot they're very sticky and betting large enough to price out draws.
Yeah, because theire not so unbalanced in their ranges that many of the fish/rec players are. When they call a flopraise for example, they probably arent calling the flopraise only to fold to further aggression on the turn/river. They know whats coming, and is planning the hand ahead.

Thats the key of the bolded part you quoted from me to, manipulate your continuerange any street but flop/turn particulary so that the aggro reg thats used to bluff you drives straight into the wall. In all the spots he used to gets fold cause your range consists of too many call one street/fold the next street marginal type of hands, you have pimped your range so you can handle what you know is coming regardless: multiple barrells.
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Old 05-26-2017, 11:24 AM   #18846
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ragequit99 View Post
Re. fish, they won't pay off really badly unless they have 2pair+
Which is basically a cooler, and you're just as likely to be on the good side versus the bad side as they are.

Regarding your "what to do when doubling up" question, does your room offer multiple tables of the same stake (where you keep your chips when table changing)? What I often do after doubling up and then becoming a deeper stack at a table full of deeper stacks is to move to a table (of the same stakes) that simply has shorter stacks / less deeper stacks / less good players on deeper stacks.

GgoodluckG


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dizzyqtp View Post
This is way off ime.

I see fish stack off deep lightly all the time. They are unable to understand absolute vs relative hand strength and what hands are okay to stack off with on certain board textures at deeper stack depths. This is especially the case with overpairs.
Then our experiences differ.

GcluelessNLnoobG
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Old 05-26-2017, 11:29 AM   #18847
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Originally Posted by Dizzyqtp View Post
This is way off ime.

I see fish stack off deep lightly all the time. They are unable to understand absolute vs relative hand strength and what hands are okay to stack off with on certain board textures at deeper stack depths. This is especially the case with overpairs.
I agree with Dizzy, see this all the time. There are several people I play with that I will basically never sit with a smaller stack than (game is uncapped) because you're giving away money.

Agreed it's game dependent though. If people aren't stacking off 200 BBS deep without the nuts, then there's not much value in covering fish.
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Old 05-26-2017, 11:39 AM   #18848
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Which is basically a cooler, and you're just as likely to be on the good side versus the bad side as they are.
It's not a cooler when they stack off with strong absolute strength hands that have weak relative value based on the board texture/action/stack depth.

We're not talking about set-over-set / true coolers here - but spots where the fish will get stacked by us but we wouldn't get stacked if the situations were reversed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gobbledygeek View Post
Then our experiences differ.

GcluelessNLnoobG
yeah, fair enough then (just gotta add mandatory comment about your image making it so no one will ever stack off light to you)
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Old 05-26-2017, 11:41 AM   #18849
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Originally Posted by Dizzyqtp View Post
It's not a cooler when they stack off with strong absolute strength hands that have weak relative value based on the board texture/action/stack depth.

We're not talking about set-over-set / true coolers here - but spots where the fish will get stacked by us but we wouldn't get stacked if the situations were reversed.



yeah, fair enough then (just gotta add mandatory comment about your image making it so no one will ever stack off light to you)
Bolded is pretty important/relevant in this context, so good comment
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Old 05-26-2017, 11:50 AM   #18850
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As I've stated before (can't recall if it's this thread or another one?) it has zero to do with my image. It's not that I don't see people stacking off 300+bb (or even 200bb+) stacks to me (which with my nit image would be perfectly fair enough): it's that I don't see it *at all* between *anybody* (other than hands involving mega maniacs).

Gourgamesobviouslydiffer,whichisfairenoughG
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