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Old 05-03-2017, 10:42 PM   #18626
8ballJunkie
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

I think PokerAgent is pretty cool, but if you are already doing your own spreadsheets then you can always generate your own pie charts, stddevs, etc. using the spreadsheet app itself.
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Old 05-03-2017, 10:46 PM   #18627
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

The main advantage an app has is that you have it on hand when you start or end a session or when you take a break. Presumably, if you are going to keep record of sessions after you drive home, there are more ways for the records to be inaccurate. You might forget to log a session or log the time and money cashed out inaccurately etc.
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Old 05-03-2017, 10:54 PM   #18628
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

With poker income you can add all the sessions you want for free, when you do it from the "all sessions" tab.
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Old 05-03-2017, 11:40 PM   #18629
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

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Originally Posted by outfit View Post
With poker income you can add all the sessions you want for free, when you do it from the "all sessions" tab.
With Zero Support I don't think PI can be recommended to anyone

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Old 05-03-2017, 11:48 PM   #18630
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Quote:
Originally Posted by OvertlySexual View Post
The main advantage an app has is that you have it on hand when you start or end a session or when you take a break. Presumably, if you are going to keep record of sessions after you drive home, there are more ways for the records to be inaccurate. You might forget to log a session or log the time and money cashed out inaccurately etc.
Same with a spreadsheet app running on your phone. Apps like Google Sheets also have the advantage of saving directly to online storage.
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Old 05-04-2017, 10:48 AM   #18631
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheJackhammer View Post
<~~~~~ n00b.

Anyone have long term success, and feel like nothing's missing by just keeping a plain vanilla spreadsheet with W/L, hours, and date information ? Getting back into the swing and this is all I used when I was playing full time.

I get that I can...work out pie charts and standard deviations and other whirligigs, but I like to KIS. Trying to figure out if I'm just lazy and if there's some real value to the more granular approach that I'm missing, or if it's really just personal preference.
In the end, the most important long term stat is +/- total $$$ and hours @ that stake, so whatever works for you is fine.

GcarvingstatsontoawallinacavewitharockG
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Old 05-07-2017, 06:53 AM   #18632
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

I want to play 5/10 but I don't have enough money. How do I have more money?

That's what I hear, at least.

Just figure out what you can afford to lose and take a shot if the game is good. If you need X to play 2/5 you don't need 2X before you can play a single hand of 5/10 in your life.
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Old 05-07-2017, 10:13 AM   #18633
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*** Official Winrates, bankrolls, and finances ***

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Originally Posted by KevinTheWorkman View Post
I have two rolls, one for life expenses and one for playing poker. I use my life roll to buy food, pay the rent, etc. I want to maintain a years worth of expenses in my life roll. Since I spend money each month I have to replenish the life roll periodically. Since my source of income is poker I have to do it with poker winnings. Also I have a roll for $2/5 but not $5/10. In order to build a roll for $5/10 I have to add my winnings from poker to my poker roll. Therefore I am using my poker winnings to fund two bankrolls, to replenish my life roll and increase my poker bankroll. Poker results in the short run are volatile. How do you manage this?


If I ever was to play professionally, I would determine what I wanted to "pay myself" per hour. This number would be lower than my expected hourly, cover my living expenses + add money for savings. Say I had a $50/hr win rate, I would pay myself $30 into my life roll for example. So from my poker roll, at the end of every week, I would just pay my life roll from my poker roll (X hours played)($30), regardless of how I did that week. If I played 30 hours and had an amazing week and made $3k, I still only pay myself $900 into my life roll. If the next week I played 30 hours and broke even, I still pay myself $900 into my life roll.

there are many ways you can implement some strategies to do what you're asking, that's just what I would do

Good luck, hope that helps
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Old 05-07-2017, 10:24 AM   #18634
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Quote:
Originally Posted by KevinTheWorkman View Post
I have two rolls, one for life expenses and one for playing poker. I use my life roll to buy food, pay the rent, etc. I want to maintain a years worth of expenses in my life roll. Since I spend money each month I have to replenish the life roll periodically. Since my source of income is poker I have to do it with poker winnings. Also I have a roll for $2/5 but not $5/10. In order to build a roll for $5/10 I have to add my winnings from poker to my poker roll. Therefore I am using my poker winnings to fund two bankrolls, to replenish my life roll and increase my poker bankroll. Poker results in the short run are volatile. How do you manage this?
Hopefully your 2/5 hourly win rate times your total number of hours played (minus taxes) equals more than your monthly bills. Otherwise you will run out of money eventually no matter how big your life roll is.

Can you live off of 80% of your 2/5 win rate? If so, put the other 20% towards the future 5/10 game roll and take shots maybe once a week now when the game looks soft.
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Old 05-07-2017, 05:46 PM   #18635
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

This may be a strange question but what's a normal standard deviation range for live 1/2-1/3 type games?

I've always used 60-80 bb/hr as a range, just from various things I read. I played some 2-100 SL way back when and my SD ended up being about 110 bb/hr. I kind of chalked this up to being pretty LAGgy and small sample size, and kind of kept using 60-80 as a range. But recently I recalculated my NL stats and it's now way lower, like unreasonably low at 47 bb/hr. I'm probably LAGgier than ever so off the bat let's just rule out the possibility that's actually correct.

1. In the absence of any information, what's a good estimate, like if you calculated the SD for the 25th and 75th percentile LLSNLer?

2. Assume I'm LAGgy but not ******ed. Like preflop VPIP/PFR may be 20/15 to 23/17 (FR). How sensitive is SD to style of play? How unreasonable is 110?

3. California games seem to be considerably softer than other places. Does anyone know of any significant differences between CA/non-CA SDs?
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Old 05-07-2017, 06:41 PM   #18636
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Originally Posted by callipygian View Post
This may be a strange question but what's a normal standard deviation range for live 1/2-1/3 type games?

I've always used 60-80 bb/hr as a range, just from various things I read. I played some 2-100 SL way back when and my SD ended up being about 110 bb/hr. I kind of chalked this up to being pretty LAGgy and small sample size, and kind of kept using 60-80 as a range. But recently I recalculated my NL stats and it's now way lower, like unreasonably low at 47 bb/hr. I'm probably LAGgier than ever so off the bat let's just rule out the possibility that's actually correct.

1. In the absence of any information, what's a good estimate, like if you calculated the SD for the 25th and 75th percentile LLSNLer?

2. Assume I'm LAGgy but not ******ed. Like preflop VPIP/PFR may be 20/15 to 23/17 (FR). How sensitive is SD to style of play? How unreasonable is 110?

3. California games seem to be considerably softer than other places. Does anyone know of any significant differences between CA/non-CA SDs?
Most good players Ive know quote their StdDev at around 100-110BB/hr.

I play pretty LAGgy preflop and I would say Im selectively aggro post flop. My StdDev over 2000+ hrs of 2/5 is 52 BB/hr.

I think most good players probably bluff the river more than I do making their StdDev higher but thats just a guess.
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Old 05-08-2017, 12:16 AM   #18637
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Quote:
Originally Posted by KevinTheWorkman View Post
I have two rolls, one for life expenses and one for playing poker. I use my life roll to buy food, pay the rent, etc. I want to maintain a years worth of expenses in my life roll. Since I spend money each month I have to replenish the life roll periodically. Since my source of income is poker I have to do it with poker winnings. Also I have a roll for $2/5 but not $5/10. In order to build a roll for $5/10 I have to add my winnings from poker to my poker roll. Therefore I am using my poker winnings to fund two bankrolls, to replenish my life roll and increase my poker bankroll. Poker results in the short run are volatile. How do you manage this?
I ditch the concept of a life roll. It's not very useful.

Make more money by playing more hours, improving your game or reducing expenses.
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Old 05-08-2017, 02:13 AM   #18638
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

I just wanted to put this out there for everyone who wishes to play poker full-time, or has ever been down on their luck and running bad. A word of caution: no matter how bad you are running, it can continue indefinitely. No matter how comfortable you think your roll is, it may not be enough. Whatever can go wrong for you at some point in time, probably will. If you want to play poker seriously, you have to be mentally prepared for the impossibly bad to happen.

I have been playing professionally or semi-professionally for about 6 years now. I have won money at poker every year since I started playing in 2010. Although I usually play 2/5, there is a deep 1/2 game I'm a regular at with a lot of whales that I beat for $60 lifetime for years and years. Those are the stakes I play, and I have been successful at these games for a long time. Certainly, I felt like I've experienced the poker highs and poker lows, but then these last 2 or 3 months came along and I don't know what to think anymore.

I have had 3 winning sessions out of my last 21 since the end of February. About a month ago, I had a 1-9-1 record going, which had been the worst in my career. I had run bad before, like anyone else, but that downswing certainly felt extreme. I had a huge win my next session, and felt like it was finally over. Little did I know that I would go 1-8 in these past nine sessions, and that one win I was stuck 500 BBs and had to make a very large comeback.

Things have been so bad that I had to drop down stakes and play 1/ 2 exclusively to rebuild my roll and my confidence. I have taken breaks to get away from the game. I have played much tighter, and nothing has worked. I haven't won in weeks. I've lost ~$5,260 in my last 6 sessions, most of it at 1/2 NL, but a few buy-ins at PLO too. I kept telling myself that it will turn around any session now. Just keep your head up, stay disciplined, and do the right things.

Instead, I lost almost $3,000 this weekend at 1/2. I was five outed or worse all-in 6 times. I had aces cracked, kings cracked, queens cracked, 2nd nuts against nuts, watched draw after draw miss, watched people pile their money in with flush draws and hit. The first hand of the weekend on Friday night, a gentleman was kind enough to shove 44 ott with the board reading AT72. He hit a 4 on the river. In another hand when I was all in for $75 and two others were all in, I watched a guy tank for 5 minutes before calling $300+ with 33 and hitting a 3 on the river. These are the players you have to beat, but sometimes the variance is bad and there really is no end.

I guess I just wanted to say that no matter how much you win it may not be enough. No matter how much you lose, you may continue to lose and it may never stop before you run out of money. You may spend years making a modest but successful living for yourself, enjoying your freedom and way of life, quietly saving up a little here and there at a time...and then it might all be gone in a couple of months, even if you use proper bankroll management. You may look back at your life and wonder why you wasted so much time playing this game that, although it can be profitable, can be so cruel and painful. You may try to drink and drown your sorrows (I've drank nearly a bottle of 100 proof whiskey this weekend), and you may see the damage that drinking does when you look at your face in the mirror. If you play this game long enough, it will hurt you in the long run, no matter how successful you think you are.

Last edited by Shuffle; 05-08-2017 at 02:18 AM.
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Old 05-08-2017, 02:30 AM   #18639
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

This is when having a wife willing to make homemade porn on your phone comes in handy.
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Old 05-08-2017, 08:12 AM   #18640
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This is when having a wife willing to make homemade porn on your phone comes in handy.
+1
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Old 05-08-2017, 08:46 AM   #18641
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re: Winrates, bankrolls, and finances

Quote:
Originally Posted by johnny_on_the_spot View Post
If I ever was to play professionally, I would determine what I wanted to "pay myself" per hour. This number would be lower than my expected hourly, cover my living expenses + add money for savings. Say I had a $50/hr win rate, I would pay myself $30 into my life roll for example. So from my poker roll, at the end of every week, I would just pay my life roll from my poker roll (X hours played)($30), regardless of how I did that week. If I played 30 hours and had an amazing week and made $3k, I still only pay myself $900 into my life roll. If the next week I played 30 hours and broke even, I still pay myself $900 into my life roll.

there are many ways you can implement some strategies to do what you're asking, that's just what I would do

Good luck, hope that helps
This is a solid strategy.

But lets be honest, this is all just mental masturbation, as all accounting is.

Really it's just a question of:
A) How much do you need to have for 1 year (6 months, 9 months) of money for living?
B) How much do you need in your bankroll to play?
C) How much cash (or equivalent) do you have?

Is A + B < C?

If yes, continue. If no, stop.

Rinse repeat every day / week / month / whatever.
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Old 05-08-2017, 02:54 PM   #18642
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheJackhammer View Post
<~~~~~ n00b.

Anyone have long term success, and feel like nothing's missing by just keeping a plain vanilla spreadsheet with W/L, hours, and date information ? Getting back into the swing and this is all I used when I was playing full time.

I get that I can...work out pie charts and standard deviations and other whirligigs, but I like to KIS. Trying to figure out if I'm just lazy and if there's some real value to the more granular approach that I'm missing, or if it's really just personal preference.
I have a 3'x2.5' dry erase board monthly calendar that I keep track of these stats
1. number of hours played (this is always a whole number)
2. Profit(green ) or loss(red)
3.Running monthly total profit
4.year to date hourly rate

I do not keep track of tips, food paid with chips. I round the hours played up or down accordingly, and I let Hendon Mob track my tournaments b/c they only list the cashes.
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Old 05-08-2017, 05:40 PM   #18643
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spikeraw22 View Post
This is when having a wife willing to make homemade porn on your phone comes in handy.
We need to extract maximum value in these kinds of situations. Make other dudes pay $1k each to star in the video in your place, obv.
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Old 05-08-2017, 05:50 PM   #18644
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Originally Posted by Shuffle View Post
I just wanted to put this out there for everyone who wishes to play poker full-time, or has ever been down on their luck and running bad. A word of caution: no matter how bad you are running, it can continue indefinitely. No matter how comfortable you think your roll is, it may not be enough. Whatever can go wrong for you at some point in time, probably will. If you want to play poker seriously, you have to be mentally prepared for the impossibly bad to happen.
<snip>
Thanks for posting. I feel much less ****ty about going almost totally breakeven since September, and having session after session of totally nothing happening. (82o - fold, J3o - fold, Q5o - fold, T9s - nice a hand I can play - raise/call/3-bet/ship **** fold, AA in the BB! - folds around to the SB to chop)

Quote:
Originally Posted by spikeraw22 View Post
This is when having a wife willing to make homemade porn on your phone comes in handy.
I don't believe you. Prove it

(Incidentally, also the proper response to a woman making a statement about a piercing or interesting tattoo.)
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Old 05-09-2017, 08:10 PM   #18645
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First hand tonight there is a $10 straddle and a call. I make it $50 with KQdd, and get 2 callers. Flop is J9x and I get it in vs QTo and lose to K x runout. This is fun.

Bankroll from $10k to under $3k in 3 weeks.
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Old 05-09-2017, 08:13 PM   #18646
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Drop down dude.
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Old 05-09-2017, 08:19 PM   #18647
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Move up to where they respect your raises
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Old 05-09-2017, 08:46 PM   #18648
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I stack off with gutshots too
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Old 05-09-2017, 08:50 PM   #18649
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Shuffle, I'm sorry that you're having a tough time, but that is not the right time to try to FPS your way out of it. Play a low variance strat for a while.
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Old 05-09-2017, 08:57 PM   #18650
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Shuffle View Post
First hand tonight there is a $10 straddle and a call. I make it $50 with KQdd, and get 2 callers. Flop is J9x and I get it in vs QTo and lose to K x runout. This is fun.



Bankroll from $10k to under $3k in 3 weeks.


Quote:
Originally Posted by meale View Post
I stack off with gutshots too


Basically this.

You might want to sit out a few days. Go do something to take your mind off of poker. From your last few posts, just from the outside looking in, you're basically on monkey tilt.

How you're getting 500bb in the hole in 1 session while already on a major downswing is kind of incredible to me. I know some people don't like stop losses because if a table is good, we should play, but jfc, there is no way you're playing your A game through all of this.

Rack up, take $100 and go get a massage. It will be better money spent than trying to run it up
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